Buttercream centers for chocolates

martin0642 · October 20, 2016

Hi all - I thought I'd revive this thread rather than start my own as it's already answered some of my questions anyway - but two questions remains...

A few people have talked about a recipe using fondant, butter and chocolate - which frankly sounds amazing - my questions are:

How do you combine them? I'm assuming you warm the fondant, melt (and temper?) the chocolate and that the butter should be softened. I note Kerry's point about using a mixer to combine.

Secondly - what's the texture like? I was pondering using a whipped ganache for a chocolate centre to give it a lighter fluffier feel...but I seem to remember reading this was a bad idea, mainly with regard to shelf life (Although I can't find where I read that..I think it ws Grewelling but I can't seem to find it)

**Jim D.** · October 20, 2016

I use Kerry's basic recipe. I heat the fondant and temper the chocolate (I don't think the latter is necessary, but I just melt some new chocolate slowly so as to keep it in temper), and yes, the butter needs to be softened. I mix them all with an immersion blender, but a food processor or mixer would work. I think the flavoring is the key to this filling as I get a kind of super-sweet, chalky taste/texture from fondant (maybe that's just me), so I add a lot of flavoring (whether it's vanilla or various kinds of liquor). This same technique also works for fruit fillings, such as strawberry or raspberry (again, with credit to Kerry).

As for fluffing up a ganache, I do this with a butter ganache. I mix the butter, the chocolate, and whatever flavorings I'm using, then beat it with a hand-held electric mixer until it gets a mousse-like consistency. My water activity measurements have been quite low (an orange-cinnamon-ancho chili flavored butter ganache came out at 0.52). Although butter ganaches have a long shelf life, perhaps the mixing in of air does shorten it (I have also read that somewhere), but I have never had an issue with spoilage. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will speak to this point, which is an important one as I am not entirely sure whether something with a low Aw can still have an impaired shelf life.

Of the two approaches, I prefer the taste of the butter ganache.

martin0642 · October 21, 2016

3 hours ago, Jim D. said:

I use Kerry's basic recipe. I heat the fondant and temper the chocolate (I don't think the latter is necessary, but I just melt some new chocolate slowly so as to keep it in temper), and yes, the butter needs to be softened. I mix them all with an immersion blender, but a food processor or mixer would work. I think the flavoring is the key to this filling as I get a kind of super-sweet, chalky taste/texture from fondant (maybe that's just me), so I add a lot of flavoring (whether it's vanilla or various kinds of liquor). This same technique also works for fruit fillings, such as strawberry or raspberry (again, with credit to Kerry).

As for fluffing up a ganache, I do this with a butter ganache. I mix the butter, the chocolate, and whatever flavorings I'm using, then beat it with a hand-held electric mixer until it gets a mousse-like consistency. My water activity measurements have been quite low (an orange-cinnamon-ancho chili flavored butter ganache came out at 0.52). Although butter ganaches have a long shelf life, perhaps the mixing in of air does shorten it (I have also read that somewhere), but I have never had an issue with spoilage. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will speak to this point, which is an important one as I am not entirely sure whether something with a low Aw can still have an impaired shelf life.

Of the two approaches, I prefer the taste of the butter ganache.

Jim..thank you so much for this - I think I'll give these a go. Especially the butter ganache - I'm with you re the shelf life but given the very low water activity the air *may* not be such an issue. At least it may only reduce the shelf life to that of a cream ganache which isn't that big a deal.

Hmmm...I see experiments on teh horizon...

KennethT · October 21, 2016

Rather than using butter, what about some kind of shortening? Sure it's not the healthiest but isn't that the point of a bonbon?

Tri2Cook · October 21, 2016

7 hours ago, KennethT said:

Rather than using butter, what about some kind of shortening? Sure it's not the healthiest but isn't that the point of a bonbon?

I don't worry about healthy when it comes to candy and desserts... but that just doesn't sound good. Seems like it would defeat the point of making them yourself. You can get cheap, not-so-tasty chocolates made with cheap, not-so-tasty ingredients anywhere without going to all the trouble of making them.

KennethT · October 21, 2016

True - but there are lots of popular candy bars (that are quite tasty) made with shortening. I got the impression that shelf-life was important to the poster, which I think would be easier to control with shortening than it would be with butter. Why would someone care about shelf life if just making a small amount for their own consumption? I assumed he was making larger volumes with intent to sell...

martin0642 · October 21, 2016

You're correct in saying that I'm making some to sell...although still in very small quantities at this stage. I'd rather avoid using shortening though. I use vegetable oils in my vegan chocolates (which is essentially what shortening is) and the texture is just weird. If i'm using butter to make the full hit of flavour then shortening would defeat that I htink...plus I just don't like the taste/texture that much Finding a combination of veg oils that almost behave like butter has been a real mission!

Kerry Beal · October 22, 2016

On October 21, 2016 at 8:47 AM, KennethT said:

True - but there are lots of popular candy bars (that are quite tasty) made with shortening. I got the impression that shelf-life was important to the poster, which I think would be easier to control with shortening than it would be with butter. Why would someone care about shelf life if just making a small amount for their own consumption? I assumed he was making larger volumes with intent to sell...

Butter won't necessarily give you a worse shelf life than shortening. It's the amount of available water that is the issue. You keep that down (by using fats rather than liquids) - you get a longer shelf life.

Kerry Beal · October 22, 2016

On October 21, 2016 at 9:54 AM, martin0642 said:

You're correct in saying that I'm making some to sell...although still in very small quantities at this stage. I'd rather avoid using shortening though. I use vegetable oils in my vegan chocolates (which is essentially what shortening is) and the texture is just weird. If i'm using butter to make the full hit of flavour then shortening would defeat that I htink...plus I just don't like the taste/texture that much Finding a combination of veg oils that almost behave like butter has been a real mission!

Tell me more about the vegan chocolates you are making. Are you using a water ganache? I'm interested in your weird texture and wonder if we can make that more acceptable to you.

Kerry Beal · October 22, 2016

If I make buttercream in the food processor (which is my preferred method) - I put the fondant and room temperature butter in and process together, then drizzle the melted chocolate into the feed tube (doesn't need to be tempered but around 30º C is best), then the flavourings.

martin0642 · October 22, 2016

7 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Tell me more about the vegan chocolates you are making. Are you using a water ganache? I'm interested in your weird texture and wonder if we can make that more acceptable to you.

Hi Kerry :)

I'm not using a water ganache, I can't find enough information about those and shelf life to trust them in something that will sit on a shelf for a while. So what I've tried so far has been a variety of milks (soy, almond, rice and hemp) and things like coconut oil and vegetable oil based spreads. What seems to work best right now us the hemp milk, alongside a sunflower oil based spread. For the most part the texture is great.... This is a new recipe for me... As in this week. The issue is with the milk and white vegan chocolates I use. They come from a company called plamil foods, because there isn't much else out there in the right form... Ie catering size packs. The white chocolate reacted very weirdly when I tried a fruit puree based ganache, went like jam and then separated when cooled. Both chocolates melt somewhat reluctantly and seem to set up very quickly. However my latest ganaches have been excellent . Except one which went very grainy . It's just quite unpredictable with this chocolate basically. I would LOVE to find a way to make a dairy free caramel. May have to experiment with the sunflower spread.

Kerry Beal · October 22, 2016

2 hours ago, martin0642 said:

Hi Kerry

I'm not using a water ganache, I can't find enough information about those and shelf life to trust them in something that will sit on a shelf for a while. So what I've tried so far has been a variety of milks (soy, almond, rice and hemp) and things like coconut oil and vegetable oil based spreads. What seems to work best right now us the hemp milk, alongside a sunflower oil based spread. For the most part the texture is great.... This is a new recipe for me... As in this week. The issue is with the milk and white vegan chocolates I use. They come from a company called plamil foods, because there isn't much else out there in the right form... Ie catering size packs. The white chocolate reacted very weirdly when I tried a fruit puree based ganache, went like jam and then separated when cooled. Both chocolates melt somewhat reluctantly and seem to set up very quickly. However my latest ganaches have been excellent . Except one which went very grainy . It's just quite unpredictable with this chocolate basically. I would LOVE to find a way to make a dairy free caramel. May have to experiment with the sunflower spread.

For a water ganache - I take a regular recipe that has a decent shelf life - replace the cream with 65% water/fruit juice/wine and 35% neutral oil such as grape seed.

Don't know about working with the vegan milk and white chocolate - here is what is listed as the ingredients in the Plamil Milk - sugar 35%, cocoa butter, soya flour 22%, cocoa mass, sunflower lecithin. White has cocoa butter, rice powder (rice syrup powder, rice starch, rice flour), sugar, vanilla. I can see those ingredients might not emulsify well when added to other ingredients.

Are you hoping for a chewy caramel or a liquid caramel for filling. The chewy is a challenge, but the liquid you could caramelize sugar with glucose then deglaze with coconut cream.

Tri2Cook · October 22, 2016

48 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Don't know about working with the vegan milk and white chocolate - here is what is listed as the ingredients in the Plamil Milk - sugar 35%, cocoa butter, soya flour 22%, cocoa mass, sunflower lecithin. White has cocoa butter, rice powder (rice syrup powder, rice starch, rice flour), sugar, vanilla. I can see those ingredients might not emulsify well when added to other ingredients.

I applaud those who want to help the vegan crowd be able to enjoy a version of the things the rest of us enjoy... or at least, want their money too. Way too much trouble as far as I'm concerned. They made their choice.

MelissaH · October 23, 2016

17 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

Butter won't necessarily give you a worse shelf life than shortening. It's the amount of available water that is the issue. You keep that down (by using fats rather than liquids) - you get a longer shelf life.

If you used clarified butter, would that help?

martin0642 · October 23, 2016

18 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

For a water ganache - I take a regular recipe that has a decent shelf life - replace the cream with 65% water/fruit juice/wine and 35% neutral oil such as grape seed.

Don't know about working with the vegan milk and white chocolate - here is what is listed as the ingredients in the Plamil Milk - sugar 35%, cocoa butter, soya flour 22%, cocoa mass, sunflower lecithin. White has cocoa butter, rice powder (rice syrup powder, rice starch, rice flour), sugar, vanilla. I can see those ingredients might not emulsify well when added to other ingredients.

Are you hoping for a chewy caramel or a liquid caramel for filling. The chewy is a challenge, but the liquid you could caramelize sugar with glucose then deglaze with coconut cream.

Thank you as ever Kerry - very helpful.

The vegan chocolate is a challenge that's for sure... I may give up on the white chocolate altogether as I think you're right about the added ingredients. It's les of an issue with the "milk" chocolate; that works ok and I've finally found ways of making the ganache work pretty well. In fact it's got a much cleaner taster than the dairy version which lets the flavours come through more in some ways. Definitely worth doing anyway.

The white though...urgh. I just tried melting some down and got the same issue I always do - a crust forming on the bottom of the bowl (metal bowl over a pan of water). The temperature is around 40-42c at this point so it seems unlikely i'm burning it. I think the solids, especially the starch, are solidifying. It takes a lot of careful monitoring and basically ocnstant sirring to try and get past this, and even then it needs straining before use. Definitely not worth using for a ganache, seems okish for decoration but frankly it's too much work to make it worthwhile.

I may give your water ganache a go for some fruit flavours..thank you for that.

As for the caramel - yes it's a liquid caramel i'm after. I've just done some calculations to work out the fat content of the recipe I use and it looks like a 60% fat coconut cream I can buy may do the trick (given that i'm replacing both daiy cream and butter). I'll report back when I've tried it out tomorrow!

martin0642 · October 23, 2016

17 hours ago, Tri2Cook said:

I applaud those who want to help the vegan crowd be able to enjoy a version of the things the rest of us enjoy... or at least, want their money too. Way too much trouble as far as I'm concerned. They made their choice.

Haha! Yesh....its definitely challenging! Initially it was a response to consumer demand locally but it's now turned into a technical challenge as well. Plus, as a fledgling business it allows me to occupy a niche that seems to be very poorly served indeed. Most veganb chocolate seems to just be bars - and a lot of those are fairly average at best. However filled chocolates are rare and i'm enjoying rising to teh technical challenge I have to say! It's teaching me a lot about proper fat ratios, what works - how various fats behave in things like ganache etc. I was using coconut oil initially but it sets up too hard and gives the ganache a grainy texture.

martin0642 · October 23, 2016

4 hours ago, MelissaH said:

If you used clarified butter, would that help?

The issue is less about whether the fats work in an aerated ganache; I think butter is perfect for it as a butter ganache has an inherently better shelf life than a cream based one. FOr me the concern was more that the added air within the ganache may cause issues by providing a physical (rather than chemical/biological) environment in which bacteria could grow.

Kerry Beal · October 23, 2016

1 hour ago, martin0642 said:

Haha! Yesh....its definitely challenging! Initially it was a response to consumer demand locally but it's now turned into a technical challenge as well. Plus, as a fledgling business it allows me to occupy a niche that seems to be very poorly served indeed. Most veganb chocolate seems to just be bars - and a lot of those are fairly average at best. However filled chocolates are rare and i'm enjoying rising to teh technical challenge I have to say! It's teaching me a lot about proper fat ratios, what works - how various fats behave in things like ganache etc. I was using coconut oil initially but it sets up too hard and gives the ganache a grainy texture.

Wonder if you tempered your ganache with the coconut oil if you could get rid of the grainy?

martin0642 · October 23, 2016

10 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

Wonder if you tempered your ganache with the coconut oil if you could get rid of the grainy?

Yeah I wondered about that and i've tried a couple of approaches for that - tabling the gamache and just making sure the ganache used tempered chocolate at the right temperature throughout...neither worked. Coconut oil just sets up hard at room temperature and it seems that translates to a slightly grainy ganache. Using the sunflower based spread i have now is more work but the final texture is fine.

**Jim D.** · October 23, 2016

When I first started using coconut oil, I learned that not all coconut oil sets up completely hard at room temp. The unrefined kind that still has its coconut taste (and is therefore great for making a coconut filling) is quite hard, but the refined and (I think) more highly processed kind (LouAna is the most common brand in the U.S.) does not get totally hard. As it has no discernible coconut taste, it is what is used in various flavors of "meltaways" when one does not want a coconut flavor. Greweling has quite a few recipes for these, which are another way of achieving a buttercream-like texture. It is difficult to tell from packaging which type one is purchasing; I suppose the manufacturers of the processed product don't want to say too much about that.

Tri2Cook · March 20, 2018

On ‎2009‎-‎10‎-‎07 at 8:35 AM, Kerry Beal said:

The Geert's book Belgian Chocolates does the buttercream that I think you are looking for.

I do 200 grams of 118º fondant, 150 grams butter and 300 grams chocolate to make a nice soft butter cream - I'll add whatever flavouring I want. Mixing is best done in a food processor to get it nice and smooth.

Dredging this from the depths to ask a question (completely overlooking the fact that this is from over 8 years ago and you may not even use this anymore). When you do fruit flavors with this, do you just add puree? If so, is getting enough in the mix for good flavor difficult without getting it too thin?

Kerry Beal · March 20, 2018

52 minutes ago, Tri2Cook said:

Dredging this from the depths to ask a question (completely overlooking the fact that this is from over 8 years ago and you may not even use this anymore). When you do fruit flavors with this, do you just add puree? If so, is getting enough in the mix for good flavor difficult without getting it too thin?

I usually add concentrated (boiled down) puree, some freeze dried fruit if I have it, maybe some fruit flavored compound.

**Jim D.** · March 20, 2018

54 minutes ago, Tri2Cook said:

Dredging this from the depths to ask a question (completely overlooking the fact that this is from over 8 years ago and you may not even use this anymore). When you do fruit flavors with this, do you just add puree? If so, is getting enough in the mix for good flavor difficult without getting it too thin?

I just made some of Kerry's strawberry butter cream. I sometimes make raspberry. In both of those I substitute some plain cocoa butter for part of the white chocolate, allowing more fruit flavor to come through. When making a non-fruit one, I have found that it takes too much whiskey to give any flavor, so use dark rum. I also make a creme brûlée filling, adding a layer of crushed caramel below the vanilla-flavored butter cream--for reasons that mostly escape me, people love it. So I use Kerry's basic recipe rather often. The problem is getting enough flavor without making the filling too thin to set up.

Tri2Cook · April 7, 2018

On ‎2009‎-‎10‎-‎07 at 8:35 AM, Kerry Beal said:

The Geert's book Belgian Chocolates does the buttercream that I think you are looking for.

I do 200 grams of 118º fondant, 150 grams butter and 300 grams chocolate to make a nice soft butter cream - I'll add whatever flavouring I want. Mixing is best done in a food processor to get it nice and smooth.

Do you think part of the fondant in this could be replaced with cream of coconut (the Coco Lopez type stuff) to get a coconut buttercream? Or does that sound like a really bad thing? I'm trying to model a filling after the Coconaut tiki drink which is cream of coconut, rum and lime juice. I'm just not entirely sure of the role of the fondant plays in the buttercream formula so I wasn't sure if bad things happen if you alter it.

Kerry Beal · April 8, 2018

1 hour ago, Tri2Cook said:

Do you think part of the fondant in this could be replaced with cream of coconut (the Coco Lopez type stuff) to get a coconut buttercream? Or does that sound like a really bad thing? I'm trying to model a filling after the Coconaut tiki drink which is cream of coconut, rum and lime juice. I'm just not entirely sure of the role of the fondant plays in the buttercream formula so I wasn't sure if bad things happen if you alter it.

I think I might just add the cream of coconut, rum and lime juice in addition, as the flavoring for the recipe above.

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