Worcestershire sauce

[Roger McShane]

On a recent visit to Bangkok I was served a Chinese dumpling with a dipping sauce of Worcestershire sauce (Lea and Perrins variety).

Now you might ask why I am posting on the Indian board for information about a British sauce that I tried in Thailand accompanying a Chinese meal!

The main reason is that history assigns the creation of this sauce to a British army type who, on his return from India, asked his local chemists to recreate the recipe that he had become addicted to in the orient.

The problem I face is that the sauce is based on two key ingredients. The first is tamarind and the second is anchovy. Something seems wrong here.

Tamarind is used widely is southern India but the combination of anchovy and tamarind seems much more likely to be found in Malaysia or Burma.

So, I am confused about its origins. I do not know of any similar dipping sauce in India today.

Suvir - you are the fount of knowledge for me. Can you enlighten me on this matter!

[anil]

Lord Marcus Sandys - Governor of Bengal. The Greater bengal (now bangladesh) had extensive usage of anchovys as well as tamarind.

[Simon Majumdar]

Roger

In Calcutta you can still buy Luychee ( Sp?) which are small puri. They aserve these from streets stalls with two sauces. One is tamarind pulp and the other is good old fashioned Lea & Perrins.

It works well splashed in dahls and other dishes and is a staple in my indian kitchen

S

[Suvir Saran]

Lord Marcus Sandys - Governor of Bengal. The Greater bengal (now bangladesh)  had extensive usage of anchovys as well as tamarind.

There you have it Roger. You flatter me shamelessly.

From the greater fountain of knowledge, you got your answer... Anil, you are most impressive in your knowledge of things big and small, Indian and non-Indian.

PS: Anchovys are also used alongside tamarind in Goa as also other parts of coastal Southern India. And also Burma and India were once all one country... Is my history failing me? And in Bengal one finds most amazing ways in which sea food is used in the preparation of savory dishes. And yes they are famous for adding tamarind into some of their sauces. Luychees are nice with any sauce.

[spqr]

I've read that there's a connection of some kind between salty condiments, like Worcestershire sauce, Thai fish sauce, and the like with the ancient Roman condiment made from fermented fish called garum. But what is the connection, really? Is there a direct historical connection between all these various condiments, or is this a case where many cultures independently developed sauces from fermented fish?

[Suvir Saran]

I've read that there's a connection of some kind between salty condiments, like Worcestershire sauce, Thai fish sauce, and the like with the ancient Roman condiment made from fermented fish called garum. But what is the connection, really? Is there a direct historical connection between all these various condiments, or is this a case where many cultures independently developed sauces from fermented fish?

I have always wanted to know more about the same. In fact one some thread not too long ago, we did chat about garum...

I believe it was Caped chef that knew a lot about it.. Maybe he can enlighten us again...

[spicegirldc]

I've read that there's a connection of some kind between salty condiments, like Worcestershire sauce, Thai fish sauce, and the like with the ancient Roman condiment made from fermented fish called garum. But what is the connection, really? Is there a direct historical connection between all these various condiments, or is this a case where many cultures independently developed sauces from fermented fish?

Here is a article that I found... if you have already seen it, sorry, if not it is an interesting read.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/pacificnw...0729/taste.html

[hollywood]

The problem I face is that the sauce is based on two key ingredients. The first is tamarind and the second is anchovy.

What are the key ingredients in the green label variety?

[Adam Balic]

Recipes for similar types of sauces exist in medieval British recipe sources ( ). I think that Worstershire sauce is of that culinary tradition. I'm not sure about tamarind in historic British cooking, but I can see no reason why it wasn't avalible from a early time or was simply a replacement for vinegar etc. I will investigate.

[Suvir Saran]

Recipes for similar types of sauces exist in medieval British recipe sources ( ). I think that Worstershire sauce is of that culinary tradition. I'm not sure about tamarind in historic British cooking, but I can see no reason why it wasn't avalible from a early time or was simply a replacement for vinegar etc. I will investigate.

Await your post...

[Roger McShane]

Adam and Suvir

This is most interesting! I am sure that tamarind wasn't well known in England as I can find no other mention of it in any other historical cook book. The sourness of it would probably have mitigated against it being brought to England from the 'east'.

There may, however, have been fermented fish sauces in the cuisine that derived from the Viking influence. Hence there may have been the equivalent of the salty anchovy flavour that is present in the sauce.

I will also keep looking in my printed resources and will post if I find anything that can add to the discussion.

[Suvir Saran]

What is even more fascinating is that Tamarind does not come from India as one would imagine from its scientific name. It was believed to be of Indian origin for a very long time, but then it was realized that it came from Africa. Just to further confuse you all.

I know Mamster was doing a story on Tamarind, I am sure that would illuminate us about many Tamarind facts...

[Adam Balic]

Adam and Suvir

This is most interesting! I am sure that tamarind wasn't well known in England as I can find no other mention of it in any other historical cook book. The sourness of it would probably have mitigated against it being brought to England from the 'east'.

There may, however, have been fermented fish sauces in the cuisine that derived from the Viking influence. Hence there may have been the equivalent of the salty anchovy flavour that is present in the sauce.

I will also keep looking in my printed resources and will post if I find anything that can add to the discussion.

Have looked into this now. Tamarind has been a trade item in Europe since Medieval times (maybe before). Medieval - 18th C. British cooking had quite a few sour flavours (barberries, vinegar, green fruit, wine), but I can see any specific reference to Tamarind in any of my sources. Either wasn't used or it had a name differeent to any that I was looking for. Fish sauces seem quite popular though, either anchovie essence type stuff or pickled oyster liquor.

[Roger McShane]

Hi Adam

but I can see any specific reference to Tamarind in any of my sources

I assume you meant to say can't!!

It's really interesting because the type of flavour we are talking about is quite removed from the flavour of vinegar. Tamarind is a sour flavour but it is much more 'rounded' and 'deep' than vinegar. It is somewhat more immediately appealing to people who have experienced Eastern flavours.

[Adam Balic]

Roger, yes, it was can't. Yes vinegar is quite disimilar, in flavour. However Barberries are very similar in the type of sourness they impart to a dish and they are proberly the most common souring agent in British period cooking, They are still used a great deal in Persian cooking.

[Jay Francis]

I never took much notice of Worcestershire sauce, but over the last few days, I have re-discovered it and really enjoy the flavor. The one marketed here in the US lists corn syrup as its second ingredient.

I was curious to know if anyone has ever come across a recipe that would allow me to make and ferment my own, substituting sugar for the corn syrup.

But that also makes me wonder if Lee and Perrin's in the UK or other countries do not use corn syrup?

[jackal10]

I have a UK bottle and the ingredients are

Malt Vinegar (from Barley), Spirit vinegar, Molasses, Sugar, Salt, Anchovies, Tamarind extract, Onions, Garlic, Spice, Flavouring

[Jay Francis]

Looks like I need to track down some British L&P!

[JAZ]

It would be interesting to see how much of a difference there is between the two -- with all the aggressive flavors and heavy seasoning in Worcestershire sauce, I wonder if one could even taste it.

If you can't track down the made-with-sugar version, here's a recipe, which also includes a link to a previous discussion about Worcestershire.

[Anna N]

Looks like I need to track down some British L&P!

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Or you could visit your northern neighbours! My bottle has the same ingredients and I bought it in Canada.

[melkor]

It would be interesting to see how much of a difference there is between the two -- with all the aggressive flavors and heavy seasoning in Worcestershire sauce, I wonder if one could even taste it.

If you can't track down the made-with-sugar version, here's a recipe, which also includes a link to a previous discussion about Worcestershire.

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I'm not sure how 'correct' that recipe is, it isn't fermented and it uses corn syrup...

Edited August 26, 2007 by melkor (log)

[Dave the Cook]

I'm not aware of a "correct" recipe for Worcestershire sauce. It's not clear (at least from their web site) that fermentation is part of how L&P makes their sauce today, nor is it necessarily required for characteristic flavor.

I'm not sure what the objection is to corn syrup, unless it's an allusion to the dreaded high-fructose corn syrup. Since my recipe calls for dark corn syrup, which is a combination of glucose and cane-sugar molasses, the association is misleading on the surface. Moreover, sugar (sucrose) in the presence of heat and acid would almost certainly invert some proportion of it, yielding fructose (and glucose) anyway. What's the big deal?

[Smithy]

I'm not sure what the objection is to corn syrup, unless it's an allusion to the dreaded high-fructose corn syrup. Since my recipe calls for dark corn syrup, which is a combination of glucose and cane-sugar molasses, the association is misleading on the surface. Moreover, sugar (sucrose) in the presence of heat and acid would almost certainly invert some proportion of it, yielding fructose (and glucose) anyway. What's the big deal?

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I can't answer for the poster, but I can say that my cousin is allergic to corn syrup. She avoids it at all costs, now that she's identified it as the source of a lot of mysterious health problems. Avoiding corn syrup quite a challenge in this country, however.

[Jensen]

Looks like I need to track down some British L&P!

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If a trip to Canada isn't in your near future, you might try a Cost Plus World Market. I've never looked for Worcestershire sauce there but they do have other British items (HP, Coleman's, Marmite, etc.,).

And if that doesn't work out, there are a lot of websites catering to British ex-pats that might carry it.

[Dave the Cook]

I'm not sure what the objection is to corn syrup, unless it's an allusion to the dreaded high-fructose corn syrup. Since my recipe calls for dark corn syrup, which is a combination of glucose and cane-sugar molasses, the association is misleading on the surface. Moreover, sugar (sucrose) in the presence of heat and acid would almost certainly invert some proportion of it, yielding fructose (and glucose) anyway. What's the big deal?

←

I can't answer for the poster, but I can say that my cousin is allergic to corn syrup. She avoids it at all costs, now that she's identified it as the source of a lot of mysterious health problems. Avoiding corn syrup quite a challenge in this country, however.

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My sincere sympathies to your cousin; I didn't mean to cast such a wide net. My point was that sugar composition is elusive, to say the least -- even in a home-processed product. I was also pointing out that there is no "official" recipe for Worcestershire sauce. L&P seems to be the consensus standard, but in my experience there are a number of ways to skin this cat. I make the stuff about once a quarter. Next time, I'll try plain old sugar.