Japanese Knives: The Big Topic

[Hassouni]

Pretty happy with my Tojiro DP 240 Gyutou - cheapest Korin had and it's served me well. It's overdue for a sharpening though....

[patrickamory]

I love my Togiharu Inox Steel Santoku.

I've bought it as a present for 3 others and they've all loved it as well.

[Prawncrackers]

You probably won't find any of those brands in Kappabashi. Go for Misono if you like modern style or Masamoto for traditional. From memory, Tsuikiji outer market has Masamoto, Sugimoto and Nenohi shops. All are excellent makers.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Prawncrackers (log)

[budrichard]

Find this guy http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/english/index.html

He makes his own, is not particulary cheap but not in the upper range of many Japanese knifemakers.

He comes to the US a few times a ayear and that's how I met him.

I have 5 of his knives, scary sharp, well made and will last.-Dick

Alternatively, purchase this book. http://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Kitchen-Knives-Essential-Techniques/dp/4770030762

Edited November 30, 2012 by budrichard (log)

[cteavin]

Thank you all very much. It's a good start.

Happy cutting!

[gdenby]

I too would recommend reading over the reports on various knife specific forums. I've spent months lurking on the above linked forum, and have learned a lot.

One thing that was mentioned not too long ago was that knives bought from large retail stores would have a significant mark-up over smaller knife specific vendors.

I have a few Japanese knives. Of the kinds you mention, the closest I have is a Hattori HD petty. It is a complete delight to use. Nimble, and beautiful, I've only had to touch it up about once every 6 months.

If you don't mind, what did you buy that was disappointing?

[Erik Shear]

Pretty happy with my Tojiro DP 240 Gyutou - cheapest Korin had and it's served me well. It's overdue for a sharpening though....

I second that Tojiro makes a damn nice knife for the money.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Erik Shear (log)

[mgaretz]

Pretty happy with my Tojiro DP 240 Gyutou - cheapest Korin had and it's served me well. It's overdue for a sharpening though....

I second that Tojiro makes a damn nice knife for the money.

I have quite a few Tojiros and while they are very good, I find that I much prefer the Shun Classic line. I'm slowly replacing my Tojiros with Shuns when I find them on a good sale.

[The J]

I recently got a Shun Premier line santoku. It's a pretty amazing knife.

[pat_00]

Not relevant for the OP. But for all you people in the US, I can recommend the Richmond Artifex range. Seriously good knives for super value prices.

[Hassouni]

Pretty happy with my Tojiro DP 240 Gyutou - cheapest Korin had and it's served me well. It's overdue for a sharpening though....

I second that Tojiro makes a damn nice knife for the money.

I have quite a few Tojiros and while they are very good, I find that I much prefer the Shun Classic line. I'm slowly replacing my Tojiros with Shuns when I find them on a good sale.

what do you prefer about the Shuns?

[paulraphael]

A couple of general thoughts on Japanese knives ...

First, consider any recommendations of specific brands to have an expiration date. Like maybe a year. The best knives go through a cycle: an insider discovers a knife that's newly available (in the U.S. or wherever) and which outperforms everything else in its price range. It gets cult status, and then it gets widely known, and then the price goes up. It's not a great value anymore.

The Tojiro knives mentioned here were THE knives several years ago. They cost in the $50 or $60 range, and outperformed knives at twice the price. Word got out, and now they cost over twice as much. To their credit, Tojiro did improve the finish of the knives, but they are not the knockout value that they once were. A year after the price hike, Korin started imported knives under their house name Togiharu, and these became the next value leader. I don't know the status of these knives today, since I haven't been shopping.

This happens at the high end also. I bought an Ikkanshi Tadatsuna knife, because its performance was the same as that of the much more expensive Suisin wa gyuto. Chefs were flocking to the Tadatsuna for a year or so. Now that knife costs as much as a Suisin, and everyone's buying something else. The new contenders are every bit as good; they just cost less. For now.

Unrelatedly, you want to consider just how Japanese in styling you want to go. Many of the knives that people buy here are designed and made exclusively for export to the West. Shun, for example, is designed for American and European cooks who don't want to relearn how to use a knive. They have much thicker, more durable blades than the higher performance Japanese knives. They hold up to European knife techniques. People who are willing to learn new techniques—both for cutting and for sharpening—can use much thinner, higher performance knives.

Both paths are legitemate and present different sets of tradeoffs. You just want to know which is your own camp so you don't buy wrong knife.

[Anonymous Modernist 2030]

Hi!

As many of you are probably aware by the number of forums crammed with razor-sharp-knife-addicts, japanese knives are quite trendy among chefs... from the 3-star chef to the not-so-money-conscious home cook (precisely the kind of cook that will afford MC^^).

The point of my post is not to start a philosophical debate on whether or not there are good european- or american-style knives, nor to say all knives with a "japan style" label are excellent. Yet I must confess that from the day I cut my first veggie with a quality japanese knife, it changed both my food prep experience AND my appreciation of the final product. What I would be very interested in is knowing from MC's arsenal of analysis techniques how big a difference a knife can make:

- on the effort required to cut

- on the surface of the cut

- on the qualities of the end-product (water loss, visual aspect, taste, ...)

- ...

For instance, the hardest japanese knives are non-stainless, and they easily impart an iron oxide taste to the food, especially when acidic, when they are not carefully wiped every 20 seconds. So in my opinion the advantage -other than sheer cutting power- of an aoko honyaki usuba over a ginsako or swedish stainless usuba is debatable...

Any thoughts ?

Nick.

[Judy Wilson]

Hi Berto,

We actually haven't done much testing on this.

[Anonymous Modernist 5246]

For me its all about comfort. If the knife does not feel right, then I am not going to use it even though it may be the sharpest and long living knife in my set. With that said, I prefer Japanese knives for their balance, style and most importantly, they fit may hand. When I buy a knife, I usually have a shape in mind, but when I pick it up, it should feel right in the hand, if it doesn't then it goes back in the case. The only one that I bought site unseen was my sin Watanabe Kuro-uchi Guto 180mm. It maybe the best knife I have ever bought along with a great maker.

[Anonymous Modernist 18281]

Hi Berto...

The question that you're asking is very interesting. I can't reply to that but I saw that you have the idea of Jap Knives made exclusively with non stainless steel (high carbon steel) but they work now some modern alloys that are 100% stainless and others semi/inox and they have the same capacity of taking an scary edge and the edge retention is just as awesome as with the high carbon steel.

Take a look, this is my favourite knife, you get the frightening edge of a high carbon blade, is ultra light, has great fit and finish, is made with traditional methods by a family dedicated to the trade since many generations ago... And you don't have to break the bank to get one, I'm talking about the Konosuke HD wa gyuto http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohd27wa.html it gets slightly stained but doesn't look "rusty" and it doesn't impart any kind of smell or flavor to the food, this same brand has the HH series wich is SS. Or give a try to the Gesshins http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/kitchen-knives-by-type/gyuto/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html

Both are top notch and perform like knives that cost several times that price tag.

Or if you're more into western style but want Japanese performance get a Mac knife, very affordable and has the best of both worlds. Looks a bit like a German knife and performs like a Jap.

P.S. BTW, both vendors that I recomended are true gentlemen and are extremely commited with their products and with the customers.

Best regards from México.

Luis

[Hassouni]

I have a Tojiro DP gyuto, 240mm. I think it's wonderful, though it's due for a sharpening. I'm strongly considering a deba for fish and poultry butchering purposes, as well as either a nakiri or usuba. It's the latter two I have questions about:

1. I've read on here and elsewhere that a gyuto can do everything a nakiri can and more - so what advantages does a nakiri have?

2. ditto re: an usuba is only for certain techniques, and there are many things it cannot do. I am not particularly interested in katsuramuki, so given that, what are the pros and cons of an usuba?

[scubadoo97]

The usuba is a single beveled knife. Can be super sharp but fragile. The flat edge profile of the nikiri makes it good at vertical chopping

[Dakki]

As scubadoo97 says, usuba edges can get crazy sharp but but are fragile. If you're not doing reconstructive surgery on vegetables, I'd skip it.

I have a decent-quality nakiri packed up somewhere. I think it's intended as a general purpose knife, similar to chef's/gyuto, santoku and Chinese cleaver. Setting the santoku aside (I still haven't quite figured out what Japan was thinking), for my money the nakiri is not as useful as the other two - chef's allows you the full range of techniques we're all familiar with and the cleaver is clearly superior for vertical chopping, where the nakiri should shine compared to the chef's. Nakiris are also on the short side, which makes slicing anything bigger than an orange awkward.

You already have a perfectly good GP knife and in your position I would either invest in something more specialized or save my money.

Just IMO, YMMV, etc.

[James Hine]

An usuba can do rotary peeling which is possible with a very good quality nakiri such as a Kato or Shigfusa.

The biggest difference between the two is the blade profile; Usuba's are very flat which makes them difficult to use on anything apart from leaf vegetables and thin slices. Nakiri's have a slightly curved blade which is more like a santoku so they are easier to use and much more versatile.

Why have an Usuba? They can cut very very fine slices of onion and do a killer chiffonade but they are challenging to use.

Why have a Nakiri? Dunno really but mine is a delight to use on cabbage and lettuce and makes vegetable prep a breeze.

[scubadoo97]

I have an inexpensive Carbon kiritsuki that has a very flat profile.

If I'm slicing a basket of mushrooms as an example, I find I can do a vertical chop/slice much faster with this profile compared to my gyuto

[seaspace]

i'd recommend inquiring and shopping here: www.epicedge.com/‎. the owner, daniel, is very engaged with japanese knife manufacturers and trained in knife sharpening in japan. he's fond of bu rei zen knives, as am i. i own a 3" paring and an 8" nakiri from them. when i can afford it i'll replace my 8" german chef knife with one of theirs. the blades are so sharp you bleed just looking at them, and they're tough.

another source is http://korin.com/. they are very much "to-the"trade". i haven't purchased knives from them but have bought quite a few other items.

[Dakki]

Why have a Nakiri? Dunno really but mine is a delight to use on cabbage and lettuce and makes vegetable prep a breeze.

Hehe, I came up with another reason:

My youngest brother has been hassling me to "lend" him one of my good knives for cooking class (he's studying to be a nutritionist - don't get me started) for a few months now. In conversation I determined he's not just interested in the functional qualities of the knife (the school issues them Forschners), but he wants something "special." I wasn't about to part with one of my flashy damascus jobs so I got him an inexpensive carbon steel nakiri instead, as a Xmas gift. I figure he'll get to brag a bit to the girls in class about his "special" knife and maybe learn some proper knife care in the process, CS being more or less ideal for learning how to sharpen.

I just finished the hot vinegar treatment and started sharpening the thing - I think I'll put a 70/30 back bevel at 15 degrees and a 20 degree microbevel.

[scubadoo97]

Should make it sing!

Hope he has good knife skills. Curl those fingers if you like them

[dcarch]

Why have a Nakiri? Dunno really but mine is a delight to use on cabbage and lettuce and makes vegetable prep a breeze.

Hehe, I came up with another reason:

My youngest brother has been hassling me to "lend" him one of my good knives for cooking class (he's studying to be a nutritionist - don't get me started) for a few months now. In conversation I determined he's not just interested in the functional qualities of the knife (the school issues them Forschners), but he wants something "special." I wasn't about to part with one of my flashy damascus jobs so I got him an inexpensive carbon steel nakiri instead, as a Xmas gift. I figure he'll get to brag a bit to the girls in class about his "special" knife and maybe learn some proper knife care in the process, CS being more or less ideal for learning how to sharpen.

I just finished the hot vinegar treatment and started sharpening the thing - I think I'll put a 70/30 back bevel at 15 degrees and a 20 degree microbevel.

Show us the picture.

Please?

dcarch