Coffee Machines

[Stone]

My Krupps is ten years old and on its last perks.

I'd like your recommendations.

I need an automatic shut-off (I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally pushed something up against the switch and turned on the pot without knowing it) and a timer start would be nice. (Any thoughts on leaving the grounds in the pot overnight?)

I'd also be interested in a good, reasonably priced Coffee/espresso combo. Do these make decent espresso?

[hollywood]

Why not go with whatever's on sale at Fry's, Macy's, J&R, Costco, Best Buy, etc. in re regular coffee? Unless you wanna get fancy and do a French Press thing. On the espresso end of things, I think it's more fun to have it out. The milk steamers always clog on the home machines.

[Marlene]

For coffee makers I'd go with KitchenAid or Braun. Braun makes a terrific cup of coffee actually. I currently have the kitcheaid, and I like it, but you have to be careful with the lid, or it drips down the side of the coffee cup.

I'm a coffee addict and drink several cups a day while I'm working at my desk here, both machines hold up well under heavy usage. And the best part is, they both have baskets that come out to clean. Most of the others don't which makes clean up a bit of an issue.

[bigbear]

I have a KitchenAid KCM200 that pleases me. Auto-Off, yes. Programmable, no, but other KA models are.

This link is a good place to start some research.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews/drip

[Marlene]

I have a KitchenAid KCM200 that pleases me. Auto-Off, yes. Programmable, no, but other KA models are.

This link is a good place to start some research.

http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews/drip

Mine is the kitchenaid Pro 12 cup. It is auto off, has a clock and a reminder for descaling. and a feature that allows you to make a small pot of coffee without losing the flavour. I use the permanent gold filter, although there is debate about which is better, I never run out of filters this way and it goes in the dishwashwer. It also comes in a 10 cup version and has some funky colours, black, white, red and blue at least.

[phaelon56]

www.coffeegeek.com is unquestionably the best place to get info. As for leaving the grounds in the basket overnight and having the machine auto-start? If you have a machien that automatically grinds the beans into the filter for you just before it starts brewing I'd consider this acceptable. Not sure if there are any machines in this category that are priced realistically and also perform well. The reality is that roasted beans begin to lose their freshness a few days after roasting. Being in an airtight container slows down the process but being exposed to air unquestionably hastens it. Once the coffee is ground, even from the freshest beans, it gets stale very quickly. Espresso purists (and even folks like me who aren't fanatical but want to make the best possible coffee drinks), grind the beans for each drink and do it just before brewing. I realize it's less conveneient but a decent grinder and fresh roasted beans will produce a quantum leap in the quality of your coffee at home even when used with a cheap drip maker. My drip maker is a $10 Proctor-Silex from Wal-Mart. Friends who visit are amazed at how good my coffee is and it's only because I use good beans and grind them fresh. I don't have the luxury of stopping by a local roaster regularly so I buy good quality whole lbeans that I know are fresh and seal them in smaller amounts in ziploc's, then store the container int he freezer. I take a bag at a time and let it thaw for several hours before I out it in my little airtight countertop canister. It's worth the trouble.

[Fat Guy]

Didn't Cook's do a comparison of drip coffee makers (I assume that's the limit of this discussion) recently? Can anybody summarize the winners for us?

[Steve Klc]

This is on their site at the moment--a bit old, though:

http://www.americastestkitchen.com/promotions/703.htm

[Fat Guy]

Those of you who are serious about coffee: Do you think a drip machine can ever make good coffee?

[Stone]

The reality is that roasted beans begin to lose their freshness a few days after roasting. Being in an airtight container slows down the process but being exposed to air unquestionably hastens it. Once the coffee is ground, even from the freshest beans, it gets stale very quickly. Espresso purists (and even folks like me who aren't fanatical but want to make the best possible coffee drinks), grind the beans for each drink and do it just before brewing.   I don't have the luxury of stopping by a local roaster regularly so I buy good quality whole lbeans that I know are fresh and seal them in smaller amounts in ziploc's, then store the container int he freezer. I take a bag at a time and let it thaw for several hours before I out it in my little airtight countertop canister.  It's worth the trouble.

There was a coffee thread a while back in which people seemed to agree that freezing whole beans doesn't retain freshness. (There are too many coffee threads for me to search.)

FG -- Do you use a French Press? I do grind my own beans (One grinder for coffee, one for spices). Do I grind extra fine for the press?

By the way, Scientific American recently had a great article, "The Complexity of Coffee." It explained what was going on when making a cup of espresso, the proper desired pressure, the different chemicals are formed during the process, and crema. (I can't find a link.)

[Fat Guy]

I don't drink much coffee, so I'd say I'm not serious enough to have an opinion based on experience. As a theoretical matter I can't see how you could make an excellent cup of coffee without pressure. But I only drink the occasional espresso after a meal at a fine-dining restaurant, and usually it's not very good though sometimes a place like Ducasse comes through with a European-quality cup.

[Steve Klc]

I never agreed with that, Dstone. I freeze beans and concur with Owen/Phaelon's method. And I think if eGullet has a shared opinion on this matter--it is that coffee and espresso are two different beverages, two different concepts.

Russ Parsons did a very nice coffee/espresso piece in the LA Times not too long ago, it's probably archived and no longer "free". It didn't break much new ground that we hadn't already covered and discussed here in several of our very involved coffee/espresso discussion threads. Like some of us here, he went the Sylvia route. But his article was the most comprehensive and best general introduction in one place that I've seen lately.

I think the consensus is to grind medium coarse for the French press.

The Scientific Am. article was by Ernesto Illy--yes, that Illy--and not one of the articles freely accessible. Here's the link to their site and the issue in question:

http://www.sciam.com/issue.cfm?issueDate=Jun-02

I posted this link back in January in one of our coffee threads. The really serious coffee machine crowd hangs here:

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&as_...up=(alt.coffee)

[slarochelle]

I don't have the luxury of stopping by a local roaster regularly so I buy good quality whole lbeans that I know are fresh and seal them in smaller amounts in ziploc's, then store the container int he freezer. I take a bag at a time and let it thaw for several hours before I out it in my little airtight countertop canister.  It's worth the trouble.

I usually keep my beans in the bag/container they came in, in the freezer. Scoop out whatever I need and grind.

I never thought of "thawing" the beans before grinding. Are they really frozen to the point of needing to be thawed? My Krups grinder never had a problem.

Have I been lacking something by not allowing my beans to thaw?

[phaelon56]

Yes there has been and will continue to be debate about the merits or shortcomings of freezing coffee for long term storage. As with any food product, it seems reasonable to assume that after 6 - 12 months of freezer storage there is deterioration that will set in. Exposure to oxygen appears to be the big culprit with coffee deterioration but I'm convinced that if one uses small sealed packages and puts them inside another airtight burpable container you can avoid oxygen and moisture accumulating in/on the surface of the beans and causing problems. For years I bought two pound bags of pre-roasted whole bean French Roast at BJ's Wholesale club and simply stored the opened bag in the freezer. I would roll the top down and wrap it inside another bag, opening it only long enough to take out a few cups of beans at a time to fill the grinder. Allowing several hours for them to totally thaw I consistently got quality drip coffee for months untitl the contents of the bag were exhausted. More recently I've been into espresso and happened onto a great deal on the Perugia blend from Torrefazione Italia. I got half pound pre-sealed bags that have the one way valve. I throw these direct into the freezer and use them one at a time with great results. Refrigerating coffee is said to be not such a good idea and I can understand why.

Perhaps my ability to detect subtle flavor components is simply inadequate but the coffee I produced on a $10 drip maker with BJ's club beans was consisitently better than any cup of coffee I've ever gotten in a restaurant with one exception. There was a small northern italian restaurant in Ithaca NY when I was living there in the early 90's (Giovanni's Osteria Paisano) that made an incredible cup of coffee - I assume that they used a pressurized system as it took 5 - 8 minutes for the coffee to arrive after ordering it and there were traces of espresso like crema on the surface. It was absolutely incredible (as was their rabbit stew) - I only wish I could get coffee that good at a restaurant in NYC. I've eaten at only a few "nicer" restaurants in NYC (Danube, L'Ecole and Tribeca Grill) and never had a really satisfying cup at any of them. When you get right down to it a French Press or Melitta will make a better cup than an auto drip maker but there's something to be said for convenience.

[Steve Klc]

Yes, slarochelle, what you are doing in the freezer--opening the door, opening the bag, scooping out what you need, re-sealing the same bag, returning it to the freezer, grinding frozen beans--I wouldn't recommend--it seems to speed moisture accumulation on the beans, deterioration, loss of flavor, etc. The only way I've been able to get it to work well in my grinder and without noticeable degradation in the cup is to remove whole bags of beans, let them thaw at room temp completely, and then open the bag and fill the hopper of my grinder once completely thawed. I try to keep them in small batches, about 3 to 4 days worth, which is about the size of my hopper. And I only keep beans in the freezer for a few weeks at most.

Like Phaelon56 I am convinced of the viability of this small, sealed package freezer method. But the only way to test this for yourself is to eliminate all the other variables, as best you can, so you can test impeccably freshly roasted beans alongside the same beans, from the same manufacturer, out of the freezer, side by side. I've done that with several different roasts and brands, I suspect Phaelon has as well. Prove to yourself whether it works for you and ideally, involve another taster with some affinity for coffee or espresso who doesn't have as much invested in this experiment.

[phaelon56]

I forgot to mention that I will take a further step in the process of ruining myself (i.e. making it impossible to return to simpler, less time-consuming procedures) this coming week when I start experimenting with home roasting. The good news is that green beans are way cheaper than pre-roasted and will store forever and a day in a plain old paper sack in the cupboard (okay.... so maybe it's only a year but it seems like a long time).

Not sure if I fully addressed the issue in my previous reply but IMO you can make a really good cup of coffee with an auto drip maker. The Melitta or Chemex method is a tad better. I don't have a French Press and altough people seem to love them, for my particular and personal taste the coffee is almost overly robust. This may be due to the greater concentration of oils that aren't trapped by a paper filter or it might be just that on the few occasions when I've had French Press coffee it was made with a bit too much coffee or ground a bit finer than it should have been. I have yet to try vacuum brewed but people rave about it as the best of all possible prep methods. The reality for me is that convenience, time and counter space are all issues - I continue to always look for the best possible combination of quality vs. convenience.

[Bux]

We do pretty much what Klc does and for the same reasons--to aovid mositure condensation on the cold beans. We buy one kilo bags of roasted beans. Put the beans in small jars. Freeze the jars. We take a jar out of the freezer the day before we need it and open it only after it comes to room temperature. We use those beans, grinding them as needed until we need the next jar. At least that's our preferred pattern.

We only use espresso roast and only make esspresso. We usually have about two cups each a day. Usually doubles.

[Fat Guy]

I'd love to do some guided tasting to get all these issues sorted out. Does anybody know of a coffee seminar that does that sort of thing?

[snowangel]

I'm an iced coffee afficiando, and use the Toddy cold drip thing. They say "Cold water brewing extracts the desirable flavor elements, but eliminates many of the undesirable oils and acids found in hot brewed coffee that are not soluble at low temperatures. " Basically, you come up with a concentrate, and although I've never tried it, they recommend adding water to the concentrate and nuking it for hot coffee.

I don't know if anyone else has tried a Toddy thing.

As I recall, when the coffee guys go and buy coffee beans, they test them with the cold method, but I could be wrong.

http://www.toddyproducts.com

[Stone]

These Hario things are pretty cool. But I see broken glass everywhere.

It seems that the biggest vacuum brewer is one quart (32 oz). Does anyone have one of these? If you're making coffee for four people, I'd think you'd have to do the process twice. Does it cool down fast enough for that?

[hollywood]

I'm an iced coffee afficiando, and use the Toddy cold drip thing.  They say "Cold water brewing extracts the desirable flavor elements, but eliminates many of the undesirable oils and acids found in hot brewed coffee that are not soluble at low temperatures. "  Basically, you come up with a concentrate, and although I've never tried it, they recommend adding water to the concentrate and nuking it for hot coffee.

I don't know if anyone else has tried a Toddy thing.

As I recall, when the coffee guys go and buy coffee beans, they test them with the cold method, but I could be wrong.

http://www.toddyproducts.com

I've tried it but it takes a lot longer than the drip situation. It's great for cold coffee. I think it can't compare for hot stuff via nuking.

[bigbear]

I don't know if anyone else has tried a Toddy thing.

We touched on the Toddy briefly at this link. I like it a lot. The Queen loves it. Might be a good method for flavoring ice-cream.

http://forums.egullet.org/ibf/index.php?ac...544ab82d11e48df

[bigbear]

... But I see broken glass everywhere.

Some vacuum brewers are all stainless steel.

http://www.foodservicedirect.com/diningroo...offee_Maker.htm

[Stone]

Another coffee site.

[Marlene]

I buy my beans and keep them in the freezer until i use them. I usually blend a combo of vanilla hazelnut and regular (tim hortons here) to get a good blended taste. I bring the beans to room tempurature first. When having company, I use a French Press, but for us I don't usually bother. Even though I have an auto set on my machine I don't use it. I've found if the water sits in the coffee machine overnight, it affects the flavour. I also use filtered water which makes a big difference in taste.