Tomato in Chinese Cuisine - Ketchup, tomato sauce

[Jason Perlow]

I wouldn't hike to Flushing for Shanghainese food. The best Shanghainese restaurant in the entire Tri-State area, China 46, is in Ridgefield. We've had several threads on the place, you should definitely give it a try.

Is China 46 the one in a big strip mall, Jason, or is it on Route 46?

On route 46, right near the Grand Ave exit. Literally 300 feet from the overpass in a converted diner.

http://china46.com

or use our new Google eG button and search on China 46.

[herbacidal]

Shanghainese, Cantonese, Pekinese, Szechuan, Swatow, Hunan, Hakka, Fukien, all regional differences are coloured and shaped by the availability of ingredients, cooking fuels and custom. One region's sweet and sour pork is another's gu lo yuk, one region's twice cooked pork is another's double cooked pork, one region's gou-tee is another's potsticker, etc. You can find homologues of any dish of any region in another region. They may not be EXACTLY the same, but would be similar enough to identify.

And, they are all DELICIOUS.  

I think that's a very accurate observation, one I never thought about before,

but based on my personal experience, knowledge base, etc. one that is wholly correct.

Edited May 9, 2004 by herbacidal (log)

[wesza]

I'm curious if any of the type of Shanghai Restaurants so popular in Hong Kong have opened anywhere else in the States.

I'm referring to the Night Super places that of course serve Fresh Water Crab and other specialties in Season but stay open until 3/4 AM in the morning catering to night club goers, Restaurant Workers, Performers and Musicians.

These places also feature Shanghai Congee, Yung Chow and Vegetable Rice, Assorted Cold Cuts like Jellied Mutton, Drunken Baby Crab, Sliced Air Cured Ham, various Pickled or Salted Vegetables and the real Treats.

That were served from a Large Centerpiece of a Boiling Cauldron with many types of inserts containing different variations of Tofu, Braised, Simmered, Fermented, Skinned and Stuffed. All types of special Stews like Teal, Rice Birds and All kinds of Offals as well as translucent noodles with different broths. There were also many kinds of Dumplings served from the Steamers in front of the restaurant where you entered. I used to order a essence of Chicken Ginger Soup served in a special Pot where it had been steaming for many hours that was like no other soup served anywhere else.

During the Winter we were served a wonderful Crabapple Tea or a almost Black Ginger Molasseses Tea that were delicious and invigorating.

They were always crowded with people really enjoying the variety of items being served. Somehow this is the kind of eating experience that I miss most since leaving Asia.

Irwin

[markk]

Markk:

I wouldn't hike to Flushing for Shanghainese food. The best Shanghainese restaurant in the entire Tri-State area, China 46, is in Ridgefield. We've had several threads on the place, you should definitely give it a try.

I did try it tonight, and I'm writing to thank you. It was outstanding, and just what I was looking for. We had the Shangai crab and pork dumplings to start. Then we had a dish which I think was "pork ding" that was neither here nor there, really. But the waiter, Paul, was wonderful, and helped us order up a real feast. We ordered the blue crabs Shanghai style, and he came back a momenet later to tell us that they had just sold out of them thanks to a large party that had just departed. So we had lobster Shanghai style, soft shell crabs (salt and pepper), steamed Tilapia with ginger and scallion, and sauteed Ong Choy (Chinese Water Spinach) with garlic. Everything was outstandingly good, and we will definitely return.

I think I've probably read elsewhere on egullet the other dishes you've enjoyed there, but if you wouldn't mind listing them again (for my return visit), I'd be most appreciative. Thanks.

I had just posted elsewhere that I had a very disappointing batch of soft shells last week at New Lok Kee in Flushing. I think I will save myself the drive from now on, and stop at China 46 !!!

[Ben Hong]

Markk, the wonderful dishes you had bears out what I stated in my previous post, about the similarity of dishes from different regions. I had most of the dishes you itemized all last week in Toronto at typical Cantonese places. Tilapia, salt&pepper soft shell crabs, ong choy,etc. I don't know how Shanghai crab is prepared, but I had my favourite ginger and scallion lobster dish. Other than the outdoor signs, the menus, and the waiter telling you that it is so, how does one differentiate the dishes we mentioned? Mine from a Cantonese (Toyshan) place and yours from a "Shanghai" eatery.

[markk]

Well, when I asked about the foods they were serving, they explained that it was "Shanghai and Cantonese" cooking. Obviously the dumplings with the soup in them are a Shanghai dish, and obviously the things with Shanghai in the name are as well. The lobster had a dark brown sauce with ground up pork, and some exquisite fresh green beans that that waiter referred to as fresh peas, although they weren't round. We got into a discussion with him, and he said, revealing a sense of humor that turned out to be very useful, that Cantonese dishes were mostly ginger and scallion and that Shanghai had lots more flavors.

I've also seen in my readings that Shanghai dishes feature a lot of braised pork. Two of the dishes on the China 46 menu were:

H13

Honey Glazed Ham Chinese Style

Virginia ham steamed in aromatic honey sauce, served with mini bread.

H14

Superior Ruby Pork

A giant pork shoulder with mixed herb simmered for hours. Served very tender as melt in your mouth.

Another dish is listed as:

H6

Tofu Lover

Silky tofu slowly simmered w. hand picked meat from Maryland Crab. A notable cooking art: 2 simple elements to create the real treat.

So I realize that a lot of the dishes I had were Cantonese, expertly prepared, and I was delighted about this as I just love Cantonese cuisine. And of course, I obviously didn't have many of the strictly Shanghai dishes, although I would like to, in the hopes of discovering something new.

Does anybody reading this have any experience with the three dishes I listed above, either at China 46 or other Shanghai restaurants?

I'm off now to see on a map where these various regions are, how close they are to each other, and to see what else I can learn about them.

Edited May 14, 2004 by markk (log)

[Ben Hong]

For anyone who questions the huge importance and influence of Cantonese cuisine in China and abroad, there is a an old adage in Chinese: "Go to Soochow for a wife, go to Canton (Guangchou) for a meal" .

[tissue]

H13

Honey Glazed Ham Chinese Style

Virginia ham steamed in aromatic honey sauce, served with mini bread.

H14

Superior Ruby Pork

A giant pork shoulder with mixed herb simmered for hours. Served very tender as melt in your mouth.

Another dish is listed as:

H6

Tofu Lover

Silky tofu slowly simmered w. hand picked meat from Maryland Crab. A notable cooking art: 2 simple elements to create the real treat.

Honey Glazed ham I think is a Hunan dish, not cantonese.

Ruby Pork, if it is the whole pork shank it is a Shanghai dish.

And the tofu and crab is a Shanghai dish.

I've had a very good crab roe and tofu dish at a local Shanghainese restaurant.

[Jason Perlow]

China 46 is a unique restaurant because although it positions itself as a Shanghainese restaruant, the owner's parents are originally from Chengdu and then migrated to Shanghai -- so it has Sichuan dishes on the menu as well. Many feature a robust amount of Hua Jiao, he's not stingy with it when he's got it. The current kitchen staff is a mix of Sichuan and Shanghainese.

The Sunday "dim sum" luncheon it has started doing is truly a pan-Sino experience -- Hong Kong style, Sichuan and Shanghai dishes are all served up small plates. All excellent renditions.

Edited May 15, 2004 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Gary Soup]

Honey Glazed ham I think is a Hunan dish, not cantonese.

Ruby Pork, if it is the whole pork shank it is a Shanghai dish.

And the tofu and crab is a Shanghai dish.

I've had a very good crab roe and tofu dish at a local Shanghainese restaurant.

Tissue, as usual you've nailed it. Ham doesn't figure much in Shanghai cuisine at all. The famous Jinhua ham is possibly the saltiest and driest of cured hams anywhere, and is mostly used as a condiment, or served as an appetizer, thinly sliced and steamed. Crab tofu is one of the most delectably subtle of Shanghainese dishes, right up there with crystal shrimp. (So much for "hong shao" everything.)

[jo-mel]

A couple of my books also show Honey Ham as a Western dish. A good example of how not all Western dishes have to be 'hot'.

[zaskar]

I’m curious about the use of tomatoes in Chinese food, whether that be Ketchup, Tomato Sauce, Tomato Puree, etc.

How authentic is this? I have many Chinese cookbooks, Wei-Chuan, Pei-Mei, and others that I bought in China (English/Chinese languages together) and a lot of them use ketchup in their recipes.

Of course the obligatory “Sweet & Sour” has ketchup in it, except for some which don’t and use pineapple juice or haw flakes or something else. Also Sichuan prawns, prawns/shrimp in a spicy tomato sauce (with ketchup, hot bean paste).

I hate the taste of ketchup in Chinese food, especially sweet and sour sauce. Which is why I don’t ever order it out, I haven’t in the last 5+ years (in a restaurant). I’ve had Sichuan Prawns that had no taste of ketchup in it but I know they used it. I was thinking they used something else like tomato puree or sauce.

Does anybody have a suggestion of what to use in place of ketchup or not getting that ketchup flavor if it’s used. I do think they use way too much, especially when you see sweet and sour dishes that use 1/3 or ½ Cup ketchup.

[hzrt8w]

How authentic is this?  I have many Chinese cookbooks, Wei-Chuan, Pei-Mei, and others that I bought in China (English/Chinese languages together) and a lot of them use ketchup in their recipes.

←

Re: "How authentic is that". How far back in Chinese history would you consider for being "authentic"? 20-30 years? 200 years? 2000 years?

[zaskar]

Re: "How authentic is that". How far back in Chinese history would you consider for being "authentic"? 20-30 years? 200 years? 2000 years?

←

[XiaoLing]

Here's some food for thought...

Ketchup originated in China. Apparently, the word Ketchup is derived from the Chinese words "ka-tsiap."

You can find the article here.

[leviathan]

How authentic is this?  I have many Chinese cookbooks, Wei-Chuan, Pei-Mei, and others that I bought in China (English/Chinese languages together) and a lot of them use ketchup in their recipes.

The sources you cite should answer your own question. Maybe, if you had a cookbook that was geared towards american readers, you might have some doubts. But, when authentic chinese cookbooks like those use ketchup, then I would argue that it is authentic.

As XiaoLing mentioned, the word ketchup is of Chinese origin but the Chinese ketchup, ka-tsiap, that was referring to is not the same ketchup we know today. Tomatoes aren't indigenous to China, and so ka-tasiap did not use tomatoes. But, the fact that tomatoes weren't indigneous to Chinese cuisine doesn't mean the use of it today isn't authentic. After all, peanuts and thus peanut oil aren't indigenous to China, but every Chinese kitchen uses peanut oil today.

Edited March 24, 2007 by leviathan (log)

[hzrt8w]

I agree. From what I understand, tomato was not native to China. It was introduced at some point. Maybe hundreds of years ago. In Chinese, tomato is "Fan Kei" [Cantonese]. The first word "Fan" implies that it has a foreign origin.

Like many things, Chinese adopted the foreign ingredients in our cooking. Does it make you consider it's authentic?

[Kent Wang]

In Shanghai my family often made scrambled eggs with tomatoes.

[liuzhou]

The origin of the word 'ketchup' or 'catsup' is probably the most disputed in all of etymology. (Although , it is generally agreed to be Asian. Malay has a good claim.)

However, every supermarket and small store round this part of China carries the stuff. So someone is using it. Even my very traditional mother-in-law has a bottle on the shelf.

(The tomato is native to America, along with other 'Chinese' goodies such as the chilli. Hard to imagine, but not that long ago Sichuan and Hunan had no chillies.)

Edit: I was in my local supermarket this afternoon and checked out the ketchup. Not only do they have it; they have 8 competing brands.

Edited March 24, 2007 by liuzhou (log)

[Pan]

The origin of the word 'ketchup' or 'catsup' is probably the most disputed in all of etymology. (Although , it is generally agreed to be Asian. Malay has a good claim.)[...]

←

I doubt Malay has a good claim. Kicap in Malay means soy sauce, and surely, the Malays did not invent soy sauce, did they? I seriously doubt that!

[liuzhou]

Kicap in Malay means soy sauce

Whether it came from Chinese or Malay,the original meaning was 'fish sauce'. My own opinion is that it was introduced into English from Malay, but Malay took it from Chinese. Borrowings are often indirect and meanings change.

Which is what makes etymology interesting.

See here.

[Pan]

Yeah, but that was my point: That the original derivation was pretty clearly Chinese, based on what I know and have read. And your point about its original meaning gives rise to another question: The derivation of "budu," the Malay word for "fish sauce." But that's off-topic for this forum.

Edited March 25, 2007 by Pan (log)

[stephenc]

To answer the original question, yes, tomatoes and ketchup are part of "authentic" chinese cooking.

stirfried eggs and tomatoes is probably the first dish a lot of chinese people learn to cook.

If you don't like ketchup, you can substitute vinegar + sugar.

Edited March 25, 2007 by stephenc (log)