Chez Panisse Bans Bottled Water

[Kayakado]

Bottled water is having a terrible impact on the Florida aquafers and everybody and their brother is trying to bottle Florida spring water and ship it somewhere. They voted down a pipeline that would take water from the spring water rich north central area to south Florida but at the same time they are bottling and shipping water to everywhere. The state is supposed to be protecting the natural springs for the use of its residents, that's a joke. On a recent visit to a once bustling Victorian Spa in Orange Springs, we found the spring's bathing pool empty and growing grass while the water was completely diverted into the Accappella (my spelling is questionable) Spring water factory that had tapped into the spring at an angle and completely absorbed the flow. Other springs like Silver Springs, Rainbow, Ichetucknee, etc. are the lowest they have been in decades. Besides that all the chemicals like DDT and such are finally after 20 years showing up in these springs. It took them 20 years from the time the chemicals were put into the soil for them to resurface into the spring waters.

On a second note, I've done taste tests with my house guests, Zephyrhills spring water vs my home tap water (city water) and they chose the tap water every time. I admit I am lucky I have good tap water. Just 30 miles north of me the wells are sulphur or tannic, and few people find these very palatable and don't like the color.

I'd love it, if people would go back to drinking their own local water.

(climbs slowly down from soapbox and slinks away...)

[Anna N]

I rarely buy bottled water but I have a case on hand as part of my "emergency" kit which I replace every six months.

I use a BRITA filter for everyday water. If I need to carry water away from home then I use a refillable bottle and my BRITA water.

HOWEVER, I do love the occasional bottle of plain Perrier - I treat it as others treat a wine spritzer - it's a treat and nothing more. Yet my next door neighbours fill their recycle boxes to overflowing with empty water bottles - this astounds me as I know from talking with them that money is tight in their home. I consider our water costs in this area to be totally out of line so be damned if I am going to buy bottled water routinely!

As an aside, when I was growing up and asked for "pop" I was told that there was plenty of "Corporation Pop" - city drinking water.

[eje]

First off, let me say that I live in the Bay Area and think our water is really pretty good.

Almost all of our drinking water comes from runoff from the Sierra snow pack.

A number of restaurants in the area have stopped serving bottled water.

Incanto was the first I was aware of.

To quote their website:

Meals at Incanto begin with complimentary sparkling or still water because our local Hetch Hetchy water tastes great (we filter, chill and carbonate it before serving) and because serving our local water in reusable bottles makes more sense for the environment than shipping heavy glass bottles filled with water all over the world.

Personally, I think it is a great idea. There are some things I think it is worth thinking about when you are out to dinner. Cocktails, wine, food courses... I would prefer not to have to talk to a "water sommelier" as well.

[JohnL]

A case can be made for a ban or a regulation or a boycott of almost everything and anything etc based upon some altruistic motive or another. sooner or later there will be a movement to restrict or ban an item you may like. (bound to happen).

Some people like bottled water.

Some people need it for health reasons.

Chlorinated tap water may not be the H2O of choice for some.

High mineral content well water may not be best for brewing coffee or tea etc for some for whom this water source is the only option.

I suggest that if Chez Panisse wants to really do something to "save the world" they stop providing alcohol!

Really, alcohol is responsible for the deaths, suffering and illness of tens of thousands of people. I challenge anyone to make a case that alcoholic beverages are a necessity for humans--that we can not live without them.

Really, people can have that great local tap water with their meals--the world will be a better place!

Edited March 23, 2007 by JohnL (log)

[Busboy]

I actually like the taste of Evian (and actually prefer Vittel, which I have never seen in the States) and DC tap water is notoriously bad. Barring the evidence of the water table in Savoy falling based on U.S. consumption of thier bottled water, I can't get too upset about the environmental consequences. On the other hand, I rarely pay for water when dining out and when I buy stuff for the house, it's those gallon jugs of Poland Springs which are cheaper and just as tasty.

The odd thing about this pro environmental move is how quickly it becomes absurd if the logic is followed further. First an end to proscuitto; French cheese and all wines from beyond California's borders (check out the wine list -- not a single domestic sparkler...must we no longer drink the stars Chez Panisse?). Then the fish: was that Ahi caught in Atlantic waters? And Bronzino or Loup de mere-- the horror! What about condiments and spices? Soy sauce; pink salt; saffron, capers....

And, while we're at it, beef production is an environmental disaster between the manure in the groundwater (or turning the Chesapeake Bay into an algae-choked swamp that supports neither oysters or crabs) and the acres of Iowa farmland growing chemically-induced corn that demands petrolium resources and again leaves groundwater and soil semi-poisoned? Even sustainable cows poop and fart greenhouse gasses, and demand natual landscapes be turned over to unnatural inhabitants.

Altogether, and despite Waters' and Chez Panisses good intentions and acts over many years water seems an odd place to draw a line in the sand.

[adegiulio]

I challenge anyone to make a case that alcoholic beverages are a necessity for humans--that we can not live without them.

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There are lots of things people don't need. That doesn't mean we go banning them.

[JohnL]

I actually like the taste of Evian (and actually prefer Vittel, which I have never seen in the States) and DC tap water is notoriously bad.  Barring the evidence of the water table  in Savoy falling based on U.S. consumption of thier bottled water, I can't get too upset about the environmental consequences.  On the other hand, I rarely pay for water when dining out and when I buy stuff for the house, it's those gallon jugs of Poland Springs which are cheaper and just as tasty. 

The odd thing about this pro environmental move is how quickly it becomes absurd if the logic is followed further.  First an end to proscuitto; French cheese and all wines from beyond California's borders (check out the wine list -- not a single domestic sparkler...must we no longer drink the stars Chez Panisse?).  Then the fish: was that Ahi caught in Atlantic waters?  And Bronzino or Loup de mere-- the horror!  What about condiments and spices? Soy sauce; pink salt; saffron, capers....

And, while we're at it, beef production is an environmental disaster between the manure in the groundwater (or turning the Chesapeake Bay into an algae-choked swamp that supports neither oysters or crabs) and the acres of Iowa farmland growing chemically-induced corn that demands petrolium resources and again leaves groundwater and soil semi-poisoned? Even sustainable cows poop and fart greenhouse gasses, and demand natual landscapes be turned over to unnatural inhabitants.

Altogether, and despite Waters' and Chez Panisses good intentions and acts over many years water seems an odd place to draw a line in the sand.

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I tend to agree with you.

The problem with Pollan is much of what he advocates is not practical and has a downside.

First "organic" was sold in as better for us and the earth. Then someone like Earthbound farms finds a way to make organic inexpensive and widely available but that's not good enough for the Pollan's of the world.

Pollan really wants a return to the eighteenth century where we all drank from the local well or stream.

Local farming means cutting down trees! just as many local forests are recovering from the deforestation driven by guess what--local farming.

We ban DDT to save some birds and millions of people die from malaria.

There are no perfect solutions--to anything.

With some common sense and ingenuity we can improve life and protect nature.

[JohnL]

I challenge anyone to make a case that alcoholic beverages are a necessity for humans--that we can not live without them.

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There are lots of things people don't need. That doesn't mean we go banning them.

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That's my point.

If a case can be made that somehow we or our children or the animals or the planet would be better off if we did ban something then there are plenty of groups out there who will take action to get that something regulated or banned. Lot's of folks who are willing to make choices for you by eliminating or reducing your options.

Count on it!

[Magictofu]

I challenge anyone to make a case that alcoholic beverages are a necessity for humans--that we can not live without them.

←

There are lots of things people don't need. That doesn't mean we go banning them.

←

That's my point.

If a case can be made that somehow we or our children or the animals or the planet would be better off if we did ban something then there are plenty of groups out there who will take action to get that something regulated or banned. Lot's of folks who are willing to make choices for you by eliminating or reducing your options.

Count on it!

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A few points:

1. There is a difference between a ban and a choice made by a restaurateur about what they serve.

2. Restricting the use of something (e.g. special tax on environmentaly damageable goods, limiting the amount of lead and other heavy metal in water, etc.) is not the same as a total ban. We have such regulations already, some controversial I admit, but most are not.

3. In the case of water, there is often a problem of perception (not always, it is true) regarding health and taste benefits. I have read a few documents discussing recent research arguing that tap water is often healthier and taste as good or better than bottled water (I'll dig them out later this weekend). In many cases anyway what's available on the market is filtrated tap water put in bottles... which is sometimes fine when needing water and a container... but still economically and environmentaly questionable.

[Pontormo]

The odd thing about this pro environmental move is how quickly it becomes absurd if the logic is followed further.  First an end to proscuitto; French cheese and all wines from beyond California's borders (check out the wine list -- not a single domestic sparkler...must we no longer drink the stars Chez Panisse?).  Then the fish: was that Ahi caught in Atlantic waters?  And Bronzino or Loup de mere-- the horror!  What about condiments and spices? Soy sauce; pink salt; saffron, capers....

And, while we're at it, beef production is an environmental disaster between the manure in the groundwater (or turning the Chesapeake Bay into an algae-choked swamp that supports neither oysters or crabs) and the acres of Iowa farmland growing chemically-induced corn that demands petrolium resources and again leaves groundwater and soil semi-poisoned? Even sustainable cows poop and fart greenhouse gasses, and demand natual landscapes be turned over to unnatural inhabitants.

Altogether, and despite Waters' and Chez Panisses good intentions and acts over many years water seems an odd place to draw a line in the sand.

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In light of the first two paragraphs of this excerpt, I come to conclusions of a different nature altogether in regards to the final statement.

Given how much we import because of the terroir of the grape and traditions of a particular vineyard, the fundamental difference between spotted piggies near Parma and those that produce Jamon Iberico; the Parmesans of Argentina, Wisconsin and what Italian cows help produce (and not surrounding Parma; Lynne Rossetto Kasper did a piece on Emilia-Romagna where her host asked her if she noticed any mooing in the fields); the cheeses Nikos, Jean-Paul and Laura make from their goats, etc., etc., let's take into account culinary imports from all continents and islands that grace our tables and think about what is and is not so special. To me, water is a luxury easy to forgo.

Noting how quickly the plastic coating of my dish drainer erodes and the exposed metal frame rusts, I know damn well that the hard, chemically laced water of Washington, D.C. interacts with the pipes of my pre-war building. My dinky little Brita filter does diddly-squat to gird or flush my innards. Yet, I rarely buy bottled water and will reach for it with less frequency even though I wouldn't stand in anybody's kitchen and pontificate about the cooler in the corner. I think Chez Panisse made a pretty sensible decision.

Look, much of what we talk about here is decadent. We talk about pleasure more than sustenance, and we all find ways to rationalize and justify behaviors and practices that may be inconsistent with values and principles we cherish.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[freshherbs]

I challenge anyone to make a case that alcoholic beverages are a necessity for humans--that we can not live without them.

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There are lots of things people don't need. That doesn't mean we go banning them.

←

That's my point.

If a case can be made that somehow we or our children or the animals or the planet would be better off if we did ban something then there are plenty of groups out there who will take action to get that something regulated or banned. Lot's of folks who are willing to make choices for you by eliminating or reducing your options.

Count on it!

←

hmm, well a lot of alcoholic beverages did start as medicines, so...

but that is off-topic

i really don't understand how anyone can hold a grudge about someone deciding to serve or not serve bottled water in their restaurant. seems ridiculous

personally i applaud the spirit of it. seems like an easy way to try to make a difference. that is also why the line in the sand may have been drawn there--because it is easy.

but, who cares?

even pollan admits frequently in Ominivore that his experiment is unrealistic as a way of life. but, again, his point isn't that everyone should forage/kill/grow for themselves every meal. his point was to raise awareness so maybe people will start to move in the right direction.

i think cutting out bottled water, if it is unnecessary is a great place to start.

and, yeah, making change means making sacrifices.

note: i have always refused to drink bottled water (other than sparkling) unless necessary because i think it is largely unnecessary.

[eje]

At one time, seltzer delivery was common not just in New York, but in Philadelphia and other large US cities (or at least US cities with lots of Jews.)  As far as I know, it was always locally produced, and by independent producers: I suppose you could call it an artisanal product.

Oddly, there don't seem to be many eGullet threads on seltzer delivery, but here's one.  I remember a few years back listening to an NPR interview (transcript here) with one of the last remaining seltzermen.

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If anyone lives in the Bay Area, allow me to plug the nice folks at Seltzer Sisters.

[russ parsons]

sorry, alice waters gets up my nose as much as anyone else's, but this whole thing is silly. in what way is a restaurateur choosing not to serve something AT HER OWN RESTAURANT, the same as banning it? doesn't that imply forcing others not to serve it?

personally, i think bottled water is a huge scam in most restaurants. In the first place, the mark-up is extraordinary--$8 or $9 for what you can buy in teh store for $1. it makes wine pricing look reasonable. and it is a strong "push" sell: "do you want still or sparkling," like there wasn't a third choice (a choice which I most pretentiously order every time).

In the second, even in places (like southern california) where the tapwater can be iffy, most restaurants have filtration systems installed. Yes, it is the same water the dishwashers use ... it's also the same water that's in your soup.

[Daniel Rogov]

One does hate to be a fuss-budget but we seem to have forgotten that there are major differences between what some are referring to as "bottled water" and "mineral or spring water".

Indeed bottled water can come from any source whatever, including if you like, the sewers or taps of Paris. Mineral water or spring water on the other hand comes from natural sources and whatever minerals in there are natural (unless otherwise specificallyl stated on the bottle and then I agree are a waste of money). True, many people cannot tell the difference between different spring waters but many of those same people cannot tell the difference between a Cabernet Sauvignon, a Merlot or a Zinfandel. That does not mean there are not differences. I have taken part in quite a few tastings of well known waters with professional wine critics on the panels and the differences have been remarkable and consistently noted.

I agree that having a mineral water "menu" is a bad joke, but offering one, two or three kinds of mineral waters, especially in cities where the tap water is not particularly tasty adds to the pleasure of one's meal. Whether one prefers this or that still or sparkling mineral water (and yes, many sparkling waters have CO2 added) is a matter of personal taste, much as is whether one prefers a heavy or a medium-bodied wine, a highly or softly tannic wine, or, on a perhaps more banal level, grapefruit or orange juice.

I wonder why people say that it is more natural to serve mineral water in Europe. The drinking water in most European cities is no less palatable than it is in most American cities. People in Europe drink mineral water not as a sign of status but because they enjoy it.

Me- with a French meal, I prefer Badoit; with Pizza, San Benedetto; for every day drinking (I live in Israel) May Eden. And when in Vienna, nothing but the tap water for it is among the most tasty waters of the world. And oh yes...when in Parisian cafes, invariably Perrier because it makes me think of Ernest Hemingway.

I remain, ye faithful curmudgeon

Edited March 23, 2007 by Daniel Rogov (log)

[ludja]

Banning was good to use for the title of the thread to draw people in as Pontormo mentioned, but as pointed out by Russ, Pontormo and others this is not a "banning" issue.

I think it's a great move for restaurants that have the means and desire to implement this type of strategy. The original article mentioned that Chez Panisse would typically sell 24,000 bottles of water each year.

Growing up we had club soda charged in those old selzter bottles at a small independent soda producer in New Britain, CT. ("Averys"... 'Always ask for Averys'. We would drop off the crate of bottles every week and exchange for a crate of club soda to bring home. Avery's is still in business making all sorts of flavored soda with cane syrup; I'm not sure if they still re-fill seltzer bottles though.

http://www.averysoda.com/about.html

[JohnL]

Banning was good to use for the title of the thread to draw people in as Pontormo mentioned, but as pointed out by Russ, Pontormo and others this is not a "banning" issue.

I think it's a great move for restaurants that have the means and desire to implement this type of strategy.  The original article mentioned that Chez Panisse would typically sell 24,000 bottles of water each year.

Growing up we had club soda charged in those old selzter bottles at a small independent soda producer in New Britain, CT.  ("Averys"... 'Always ask for Averys'.  We would drop off the crate of bottles every week and exchange for a crate of club soda to bring home.  Avery's is still in business making all sorts of flavored soda with cane syrup; I'm not sure if they still re-fill seltzer bottles though. 

http://www.averysoda.com/about.html

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I certainly do not "hold a grudge" against Ms Waters.

She can and should run her place as she sees fit.

I don't even have a problem with Pollan he can be thought provoking and that is good.

However, we are witnessing an explosion of do gooders, law suits, threats, dire warnings, save this or that admonishes etc.

Calls for bans, actual bans enacted by frightened legislators, misuse of information and dissemination of faulty information, myriad studies and on and on.....

We are being told how to live our lives and if we don't go along, well then there's a law or a ban to help/force us be good citizens.

It is all tiring and downright subversive!

so

the Alice "tap" Waters only thing is not in and of itself a big deal but these things do add up.

By the way it's a good thing Alice doesn't serve Chinese food! (the CSPI is screaming that this cuisine is killing us).

Otherwise Chez Panisse would only serve nothing but tap water!

(Alice being the good and concerned citizen she is)

[Andrew Fenton]

However, we are witnessing an explosion of do gooders, law suits, threats, dire warnings, save this or that admonishes etc.

Calls for bans, actual bans enacted by frightened legislators, misuse of information and dissemination of faulty information, myriad studies and on and on.....

We are being told how to live our lives and if we don't go along, well then there's a law or a ban to help/force us be good citizens.

It is all tiring and downright subversive!

so

the Alice "tap" Waters only thing is not in and of itself a big deal but these things do add up.

All of that has zero to do with the issue at hand: what a restaurateur chooses to serve in her restaurant. Alice Waters isn't telling anybody how to do anything.

Edited March 23, 2007 by Andrew Fenton (log)

[JohnL]

Well if it were that simple then there really isn't any issue at all is there?

Let's see: "What a restaurateur chooses to serve in her restaurant."

ok

anything she wants.

I guess the thread can end here!

[FoodMan]

Someone really needs to change the title of this thread! It is totally driving the discussion in the wrong direction. I mean it was a simple dicision the restaurant made for what seems to me like good enough reasons. They have excellent tap water, so why get bottled. The same reasoning that they use to cook food produced locally. Nothing wrong with that.

It's the 'B' word that is making an issue of this. As if Chez Panisse and Waters are lobying congress for a ban on bottled water. Personally I think bottled water is mostly a waste of money. I'd rather spend my cash on wine (which does not kill people BTW. Excessive wine drinking might though just like excessive ice cream eating)

[russ parsons]

i would like to propose a new thread: alice waters bans twinkies.

after all, they already have a pastry chef on hand. why do they need to serve twinkies?

[JohnL]

I would suggest that we revisit the original post.

The issue(s) introduced therein are many and complex.

Pollan and his friendship with Water's is noted as well as the intriguing notion that Water's actions are part of something much larger.

In fact, this has little to do with bottled water or water at all.

It has to do with the reason for Ms Water's action. Not the water but rather the container the water is held in and the ecological implications as well as those of the transportation of the water and the ecological implications.

Also asked in that post was the question should bottlers of said bottled water be concerned whether this action by the aforementioned Ms Waters is indeed the start of something more wide reaching?

Here's a question.

Would it be better if Ms Waters continued to serve bottled water and allowed her customers to make the choice? After all is not the customer always right!!!?

[Pontormo]

Someone really needs to change the title of this thread! It is totally driving the discussion in the wrong direction. I mean it was a simple dicision the restaurant made for what seems to me like good enough reasons. They have excellent tap water, so why get bottled. The same reasoning that they use to cook food produced locally. Nothing wrong with that.

It's the 'B' word that is making an issue of this. As if Chez Panisse and Waters are lobying congress for a ban on bottled water. Personally I think bottled water is mostly a waste of money. I'd rather spend my cash on wine (which does not kill people BTW. Excessive wine drinking might though just like excessive ice cream eating)

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Jeepers! Thank g-d I don't have to define the word "and"! My usage of the verb (not noun) "ban" is no different from the usage in the Wolfgang Puck thread to which this one bears an intertextual relationship.

Chez Panisse Bans Bottled Water from Its Premises

Except when one fussy patron visits

Better?

Nothing in the original post indicated that Chez Panisse, like the Vatican, is an independent state unto itself nor that one restaurant plans to thrust its decision upon others as much as the general manager's interview with NPR suggests that someone might wish to spread the Good Word.

i would like to propose a new thread: alice waters bans twinkies.

after all, they already have a pastry chef on hand. why do they need to serve twinkies?

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Russ, I love your wry sense of humor, but this is not a good analogy:

1) Chez Panisse never sold Twinkies in the first place. Besides, aren't they a domestic product?

2) I know everything a pastry chef produces does not involve heat or an oven, but Urban Legend has it that Twinkies aren't baked. Wouldn't Chez Panisse need a chemist, instead?

Edited March 23, 2007 by Pontormo (log)

[FoodMan]

Would it be better if Ms Waters continued to serve bottled water and allowed her customers to make the choice? After all is not the customer always right!!!?

Of course not! The customer is NOT always right. But again that is a different subject (see the 'cancelled reservation' thread in this forum).

IMHO her decision is fine. As for the decision to be left to the customer. Well, that is all fine and good too and is not better or worse than her decision to just not serve the bottled water. Like I said, decades earlier she decided to serve local and organic produce and it was her decision. She did not give the customer the option to order locally produced vs. not.

[FoodMan]

Pontormo-

I did not mean to chastise you for using the word 'banned', and I see where you're coming from. For that I apologize.

This situation is a bit different thant he W. Puck one though. The WP thing is really a 'ban' effective in all of his multi-million dollar restaurant empire including forzen foods and the likes. It's a bit more encompassing and probably means that all the franchisees are actually 'banned' from using foi gras or veal or what have you in their restaurants. Just a different context is all.

[Pontormo]

Elie, no offense taken. I am sorry if it sounded I as if I was huffing at your comment instead of the controversy that my word choice--I agree--aroused. I was hoping to encourage discussion and even debate, but in a friendly sort of way.