Was I wrong to not order anything?

[menon1971]

125 posts in one day when the situation was quite innocuous - interesting. However, not a bad conversation, all in all.

[MargyB]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

[menon1971]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

In the defense of some of the posters, the devil was indeed in the details not provided. Given your clarification I think the situation in question was much more casual.

[Meredith380]

Since this topic is open and everyone seems to lean towards "just order something", I have a different experience.

I don't have a large appettite, if I'm going out for a big dinner, I will watch what I eat in order to take advantage of it. But I've been caught off guard with various friends/ family/ boyfriend's families for meals on a whim while not hungry. I always order something, and 90% of the time, do not finish it and take it to go. Only to get scornful looks and comments about "do you ever eat". This makes me insane. How can one win in those situations?

[BryanZ]

Another idea is to get drunk beforehand. Then the frozen fries dipped in Heinz ketchup taste tremendous, and you can tolerate and even enjoy your mother in law. She'll probably be happy that you're finally having a great time.

←

In a perfect world, the perfect solution.

Some people you just can't please, and when you try to politely sidestep the issue, they call you out.  All the manners in the world can't cure having to eat with a psycho hosebeast.

←

Truth.

I appreciate everyone's opinions...and I am trying to take them as opinions, not petty criticisms. In my original posting, I didn't give all of the details of the situation in interest of keeping the posting short, but in retrospect that was obviously a mistake.

My husband and I are the ones who paid for the lunch...we were not guests of our in-laws. We hadn't planned on going out for a meal, but as we were driving by the restaurant at 3 PM (after eating a very late breakfast at 11:30), my father-in-law suggested stopping to have a "cup of soup". That was fine....but by the time the ordering was finished, all 3 of them (FIL, MIL and husband) ordered full meals.

However, now after reading all of your comments, I agree I should have ordered something, if perhaps only some toast. I'll definately do that next time.

Margy

←

You have every right in the world not to order anything. I'm with moonsqrl on this one. While it wasn't necessarily the nice thing to do, no one has any right to force you to order anything or to make you feel bad for doing so.

So, just to recap, was it a bitchy move on your part? Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with keeping your best interests above the interests of others. If someone else is offended at the personal choice you made that in no way actively affects them, that's that individual's problem.

Was it an even bitchier move on your mother-in-law's part? Yep, because she proactively singled you out and purposely attempted to make you feel bad. You weren't trying to hurt anyone directly, she was. The motivation for the respective actions is key and in this regard you have the high ground.

[SuzySushi]

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

←

Margy,

I'm sorry your original post drew so many vitriolic comments -- as you can see, this discussion has obviously unleashed some deep-rooted feelings about the meaning of food, and eGullet members can be a very opinionated bunch.

I, for one, hope you decide to stick around.

[menon1971]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

In the defense of some of the posters, the devil was indeed in the details not provided. Given your clarification I think the situation in question was much more casual.

[ludja]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

I don't think most people's responses were directed at you personally. I think it was more a response to the situation you described and how it related to similar experiences people have likely had to negotiate themselves at times. We don't know you and your famliy and weren't there for the whole backstory and exact situation so the responses could only be to the general situation as it was originallly described and interpreted.

It is an interesting topic and evidently raised a lot of different scenarios and perspectives for people to think about. It really did remind me of the situation with my Dad and his favorite Chinese restaurant back home. I also mentioned the topic to another friend and he had a host of related stories as well! Thanks for starting the conversation and look forward to your other posts!

edited to add: We also need to keep the home lights burning for our few representives from the South Bay and Peninsula!

Edited March 2, 2007 by ludja (log)

[GourmetLight$]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

Margy: I hope you stay as well. You've been here for awhile, and participated (I've read your posts), and you asked "was I wrong to not order anything?", so you obviously wanted feedback. Since you know this group, you know we'll say just about anything, and all of our feedback comes from varying cultures and backgrounds. I'm sorry much of it was critical, but we're a polite bunch when it comes down to it. I'll say that I absolutely love my MIL because she begat my Greatest Love: her son, and I would never do anything to cause her pain or embarrassment. YMMV.

[Jaymes]

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

In the defense of some of the posters, the devil was indeed in the details not provided. Given your clarification I think the situation in question was much more casual.

Weighing in again...

Given all of the new details (spur of the moment, you and your husband paid, etc.), it does seem like a completely different scenario - rather than having been invited for a meal, being a guest, saying that nothing on the menu suited you now that you're "into food," yada, yada, yada.

In this circumstance, it does seem like you should have been able to just order a drink and say that you weren't feeling particularly hungry (assuming that you left it at that) and not have anyone at the table find it particularly unusual or, for that matter, deem it worthy of any comment whatsoever.

Your original query did spark a pretty lively debate (to wallow in understatement), but that shouldn't run you off. There are literally thousands of folks here of all temperaments, and when they are asked a question, many of them (including me) have little trouble speaking their minds.

The fact that you asked about whether or not a certain behavior was "right or wrong" obviously produced more passionate opinions than had you, for example, inquired as to the various ways one might hard cook an egg, so stick around a little longer. Post in the food and regional threads, and see if you can't find a crowd that's more simpatico.

Give eG another chance before you decide for sure.

Edited March 2, 2007 by Jaymes (log)

[MargyB]

Give eG another chance before you decide for sure.

Thanks Jaymes, I will. I'm sure I was being defensive with my two latest postings (ok, and this one too!), but I just don't understand why some of the postings were so mean-spirited....and the name-calling just floored me!

My original posting obviously didn't include all of the detail that it should have, but I was trying to be brief and just give what I thought were the "highlights" rather than bore everyone with a lengthy post. I won't make that mistake again. I did ask for your opinions, but so many of you were able to give me your opinion (both positive and negative) WITHOUT being rude, mean or calling me names. As I said before, I would definately order something next time.

I'll continue reading....I enjoy the eG Forums very much. But, I'm afraid I'm going to be rather gunshy about posting again.

Margy

edited for a typo

Edited March 2, 2007 by MargyB (log)

[Jaymes]

My original posting obviously didn't include all of the detail that it should have, but I was trying to be brief...

Now, see.... THAT's where you went wrong. Just mindlessly blabber away like the rest of us.

[Peter Green]

I've been told pretty much point-blank in Mongolia that if I value my skin I'd better eat that piece of white stuff, regardless of whether it's hard enough to stone bears with or not.

←

In case I ever get to Mongolia, what IS the tooth-breaking white stuff?

←

It's a cheese they make from mare's milk. You can take the stuff and beat large creatures to death with it. It falls into what the Mongol's call White Food, which are things that can be made and stored for most of eternity.

It is not on my list of "must eat" items, by any means.

[FabulousFoodBabe]

So, who's going to be the first to apologize for calling Margy a food snob, rude, nasty, controlling, bitchy, and (worst of all), mean to a member of The Greatest Generation?

[Carrot Top]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

The problem inherent in communicating by posts on the internet is that often the posts can be mis-read. As you noted, about your original post. There's a lot of signals missing in this form of communication that are there in "real life" and also the communications are not clipped into a box that limits them in size due to time or form.

In a mythical situation, it could be that someone who posted your original post could have been sitting down with, as I noted, "a royal contolling bitch". In that mythical situation, that person could have been the woman who made it very clear to you that your actions were, as you noted "unacceptable". In this mythical situation that would have been your MIL.

You note that comments were made without people knowing the entire situation, but of course they could not know that unless you had provided that information . . .and of course nobody really knows what happened at any time between two people in any situation except those two people and even then sometimes the perception of what happened is different.

Heh. I was one of the few actually defending you, Margy.

[Chris Amirault]

Margy, glad to see you back on the horse!

I'll start by pointing out the obvious: you posted a fantastic topic that struck a nerve in dozens of members -- thanks for that! I think the topic you chose goes right to the heart of "Food Traditions and Culture," and as a result it raised a lot of questions, ire, and commentary that bubble under the surface about food, dining, culture, obligation, desire, and Cobb salads. But, alas, popularity has its costs.

As ludja wrote, I think that the reason why there's a lot of talk in this topic about people's behavior and yours in particular is because, well, you asked a set of questions about your food-related behavior. That was a gracious, honest gesture, and it enabled us to discuss a complicated situation involving food and culture with a vigor that may well have been lacking otherwise. Of course, it also enabled many posts to delve into assumptions about what the original post described, which raises lots of other interesting questions about the baggage we all bring to these sorts of topics and to food and eating in general.

To that end, it seems to me that mean-spirited posts probably say more about what people use to fill in the gaps in stories about food and culture than they do about your behavior. My mother would here quote verse about complaining about the speck in someone else's eye while ignoring the log in your own -- and then pressure me to eat the chicken parm because I'd "really love it."

[nikkib]

You note that comments were made without people knowing the entire situation, but of course they could not know that unless you had provided that information . . .and of course nobody really knows what happened at any time between two people in any situation except those two people and even then sometimes the perception of what happened is different. 

Exactly - We were only going on the limited information we had, and replying to your question. The Vitriolic responses you received were uncalled for and unnecessary but your original post certainly opened up a can of worms and stirred up some pretty strong feelings. and was an intereseting lesson in "manners" to us all. Please don't let this put you off posting again - you raised an interesting point and it would be a shame for this to put you off completely - who cares what we all think anyway?

[insomniac]

Wow...I had not read every single response until now. I'm amazed at how so many of you are assuming that I said something rude to my in-laws and how mean-spirited your responses are. And calling me a "royal controlling bitch"? Was that really called for? Wow.

I said nothing rude to anyone. I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order. And as I said in my post just before this one, we were NOT guests of our in-laws.

I'll certainly think twice before posting here again......some of your comments were very hurtful and were completely based on your own speculation without knowing all of the facts.

Thank you to those of you who rose to my defense! And I do know how to spell Tucson......forgive me for a typo.

Margy

←

The problem inherent in communicating by posts on the internet is that often the posts can be mis-read. As you noted, about your original post. There's a lot of signals missing in this form of communication that are there in "real life" and also the communications are not clipped into a box that limits them in size due to time or form.

In a mythical situation, it could be that someone who posted your original post could have been sitting down with, as I noted, "a royal contolling bitch". In that mythical situation, that person could have been the woman who made it very clear to you that your actions were, as you noted "unacceptable". In this mythical situation that would have been your MIL.

You note that comments were made without people knowing the entire situation, but of course they could not know that unless you had provided that information . . .and of course nobody really knows what happened at any time between two people in any situation except those two people and even then sometimes the perception of what happened is different.

Heh. I was one of the few actually defending you, Margy.

←

Hey Margy, these threads sometimes morph into something different from what they started out as, like Chinese whispers. As Karen says, its so hard to communicate merely in writing as all the signals we read in the other's face are missing. I have been called a few things in threads which have made me pause in mid-stride, but they have generally been as the result of miscommunication. When you posted your last response facts became obvious to me that I hadn't picked up on in your original post......and some people on this forum do have very strong opinions, which is what makes it all the more interesting, if sometimes startling and, at times, even shocking

[Carrot Top]

and some people on this forum do have very strong opinions, which is what makes it all the more interesting, if sometimes startling and, at times,  even shocking

←

It's the strong opinions, that keep me reading, personally. If there was only pap to chew on why bother?

Margy was brave to post her question - perhaps braver than she knew at first.

[Chris Amirault]

Driving into work in the rain, I think that I've put my finger on the crucial difference in your two posts, Margy. Here's excerpts from the first, with some material in bold:

I was visiting my in-laws with my husband and the 4 of us went out to lunch at an "Arizona Family Restaurant" in a senior community south of Tuscon. The menu consisted of very standard sandwiches, breakfast all day, hamburgers and a few salads. As I've gotten older and more "into" food, I've found that I have become more selective as to what foods I will or will not eat. There wasn't anything on the menu that appealed to me....I really did try to find something!   I did ask if I could order 1/2 of a cobb salad (although the picture did NOT look appetizing) and was told no. So....I chose not to order anything.

←

Here's your more recent post:

My husband and I are the ones who paid for the lunch...we were not guests of our in-laws. We hadn't planned on going out for a meal, but as we were driving by the restaurant at 3 PM (after eating a very late breakfast at 11:30), my father-in-law suggested stopping to have a "cup of soup". That was fine....but by the time the ordering was finished, all 3 of them (FIL, MIL and husband) ordered full meals.

←

With these two pieces of evidence in hand, I'd like, formally, to eat my hat. In this, our kangaroo court, I suggest we toss out our charges against MargyB, and I hereby accuse the in-laws of a bait-n-switch.

Our faithful member (who mispoke of "lunch" initially) was in fact expecting not a meal but a nosh, a snack, a bite to eat. So, entering the establishment, she anticipated being able to get away with ordering just that. However, the expectation of the gathered group changed while they were ordering, moving from a "cup of soup" to "full meals."

This is the crucial context, for it forced our member to determine whether she would comply NOT with the original implied contract BUT rather with a new, and far more involved one. Why did this happen? Why, it probably happened because, while Margy was nervously scanning the menu for something edible, the rest of the group was having their appetites piqued by the outstanding selection of delectables. That is to say, Margy likely sat there watching herself travel further and further away from the increasingly ravenous group.

Canny as she was, she attempted to find a way out: order half of a Cobb salad, the perfect item to order to address this dilemma. Pop a few cubes of ham into the mouth, push around the iceberg lettuce: it's the veggie equivalent of a "cup of soup" that can appear to be a "full meal." An ingenious solution to the social dilemma.

Alas, the restaurant did not cooperate, forcing her to choose either the sorts of "full meals" that others, who ate a large breakfast just a few hours ago, are diving into in mid-afternoon. Understandably incapable of figuring out what other item that would solve this problem, she chose, merely and politely, not to order at all.

I ask you:

Should she have ordered a pile of food like the others and then choked it all down, causing herself to grimace and perhaps ralph, insulting the other eaters who were enjoyably munching away? No, I say!

Should she have ordered a pile of food like the others and then eaten only a tiny bit, showing up all other eaters who cleaned their plates? No, I say!

Should she merely have ordered the aforementioned "cup of soup," thus rudely implicating the over-ordering of the in-laws and spouse? No, I say!

Is it her fault that the restaurant prevented her from eating her small Cobb salad, which would have allowed her to gesture toward the "full meal" successfully? No, I say!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I say that Margy was placed in an impossible situation not of her own making, and did her level best to extricate herself from that situation with the minimum of trouble. That she could not do so in the end is not her fault. Who here can judge her?

I rest my case.

[nikkib]

Driving into work in the rain, I think that I've put my finger on the crucial difference in your two posts, Margy. Here's excerpts from the first, with some material in bold:

I was visiting my in-laws with my husband and the 4 of us went out to lunch at an "Arizona Family Restaurant" in a senior community south of Tuscon. The menu consisted of very standard sandwiches, breakfast all day, hamburgers and a few salads. As I've gotten older and more "into" food, I've found that I have become more selective as to what foods I will or will not eat. There wasn't anything on the menu that appealed to me....I really did try to find something!   I did ask if I could order 1/2 of a cobb salad (although the picture did NOT look appetizing) and was told no. So....I chose not to order anything.

←

Here's your more recent post:

My husband and I are the ones who paid for the lunch...we were not guests of our in-laws. We hadn't planned on going out for a meal, but as we were driving by the restaurant at 3 PM (after eating a very late breakfast at 11:30), my father-in-law suggested stopping to have a "cup of soup". That was fine....but by the time the ordering was finished, all 3 of them (FIL, MIL and husband) ordered full meals.

←

With these two pieces of evidence in hand, I'd like, formally, to eat my hat. In this, our kangaroo court, I suggest we toss out our charges against MargyB, and I hereby accuse the in-laws of a bait-n-switch.

Our faithful member (who mispoke of "lunch" initially) was in fact expecting not a meal but a nosh, a snack, a bite to eat. So, entering the establishment, she anticipated being able to get away with ordering just that. However, the expectation of the gathered group changed while they were ordering, moving from a "cup of soup" to "full meals."

This is the crucial context, for it forced our member to determine whether she would comply NOT with the original implied contract BUT rather with a new, and far more involved one. Why did this happen? Why, it probably happened because, while Margy was nervously scanning the menu for something edible, the rest of the group was having their appetites piqued by the outstanding selection of delectables. That is to say, Margy likely sat there watching herself travel further and further away from the increasingly ravenous group.

Canny as she was, she attempted to find a way out: order half of a Cobb salad, the perfect item to order to address this dilemma. Pop a few cubes of ham into the mouth, push around the iceberg lettuce: it's the veggie equivalent of a "cup of soup" that can appear to be a "full meal." An ingenious solution to the social dilemma.

Alas, the restaurant did not cooperate, forcing her to choose either the sorts of "full meals" that others, who ate a large breakfast just a few hours ago, are diving into in mid-afternoon. Understandably incapable of figuring out what other item that would solve this problem, she chose, merely and politely, not to order at all.

I ask you:

Should she have ordered a pile of food like the others and then choked it all down, causing herself to grimace and perhaps ralph, insulting the other eaters who were enjoyably munching away? No, I say!

Should she have ordered a pile of food like the others and then eaten only a tiny bit, showing up all other eaters who cleaned their plates? No, I say!

Should she merely have ordered the aforementioned "cup of soup," thus rudely implicating the over-ordering of the in-laws and spouse? No, I say!

Is it her fault that the restaurant prevented her from eating her small Cobb salad, which would have allowed her to gesture toward the "full meal" successfully? No, I say!

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I say that Margy was placed in an impossible situation not of her own making, and did her level best to extricate herself from that situation with the minimum of trouble. That she could not do so in the end is not her fault. Who here can judge her?

I rest my case.

←

Hear, Hear!

[hjshorter]

I answered the question as it was initially presented. And IMO -- as it was initally presented -- she was wrong.

I'd suggest maybe including all the facts in a post before asking a bunch of admittedly opiniated people for their opinions.

Edited March 2, 2007 by hjshorter (log)

[Chris Amirault]

Now, now. Hat is tasty with a side of crow.

[ghostrider]

I simply said I'll have an iced tea when the server asked for my order.

←

I obviously am retracting my comment.

As far as I'm concerned, it's fine not to order food if you don't want it, no matter what the reason. That shouldn't be an issue. ESPECIALLY with family.

[Carrot Top]

Canny as she was, she attempted to find a way out: order half of a Cobb salad, the perfect item to order to address this dilemma. Pop a few cubes of ham into the mouth, push around the iceberg lettuce: it's the veggie equivalent of a "cup of soup" that can appear to be a "full meal." An ingenious solution to the social dilemma.

Alas, the restaurant did not cooperate,

←

Yeah, really. WTF. This deserves a thread of its own. Was the server just too . . . busy? At three o'clock in the afternoon to scrape half of a premade Cobb Salad off the plate and serve half? Or perhaps the chef was too elegant, accompished, and terrifying for the server to ask to make a smaller salad? Oops. Probably I mean the Salad Person at that station was too terrifying to make the request of. Or maybe, even, since I like this phrase, the server was a royal controlling bitch, too.

Tuscon - the Wild Wild West. Snap on those holsters if you want to order anything different in a small quiet restaurant on those hot dry afternoons.

(Hey - look. I even spelled the name of the place wrong. My bad. )

Edited March 2, 2007 by Carrot Top (log)