The Sourdough Starter Topic

[Smithy]

52 minutes ago, Kerry Beal said:

I'd say that's bang on - now if we go back into the baking from flour, water, salt and yeast thread - I very quickly decided there was no way in hell I was going to feed the monster everyday and discard most of it over and over again - so I feed when I need it and keep it in the fridge the rest of the time. Forkish thread

 

Thanks for that note and link, Kerry. I want to add, given the line of questioning from @Acelestialobject, that you only did that after the starter was already established. Right?

[Acelestialobject]

1 hour ago, Kerry Beal said:

I'd say that's bang on - now if we go back into the baking from flour, water, salt and yeast thread - I very quickly decided there was no way in hell I was going to feed the monster everyday and discard most of it over and over again - so I feed when I need it and keep it in the fridge the rest of the time. Forkish thread

Do you mean that once the starter is made, (which is after a week or two of regular feeding) you stop feeding it regularly and keep it in the fridge?

That's what makes it less sour??

[Kerry Beal]

24 minutes ago, Smithy said:

 

Thanks for that note and link, Kerry. I want to add, given the line of questioning from @Acelestialobject, that you only did that after the starter was already established. Right?

Correct - and I got my initial starter from Anna who did all the work on establishing it. 

[Kerry Beal]

2 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Do you mean that once the starter is made, (which is after a week or two of regular feeding) you stop feeding it regularly and keep it in the fridge?

That's what makes it less sour??

No - it's in the initial feedings that fast turnover makes for less sour. And yes - once you have established your starter you can store it in the fridge and bring it out and feed it as needed. 

Edited January 26 by Kerry Beal (log)

[AlaMoi]

this works with whole wheat flour or buckwheat flour.

there's no shortcuts for time - takes a week.

all measures in grams

[Acelestialobject]

9 hours ago, AlaMoi said:

this works with whole wheat flour or buckwheat flour.

there's no shortcuts for time - takes a week.

all measures in grams

Wow Thanks a lot for this..I'll keep referring to it this week

Edited January 27 by Acelestialobject (log)

[Acelestialobject]

10 hours ago, Kerry Beal said:

No - it's in the initial feedings that fast turnover makes for less sour. And yes - once you have established your starter you can store it in the fridge and bring it out and feed it as needed. 

I started mine yesterday. I hope it turns out this way 🤞

[Ann_T]

On 1/26/2025 at 12:28 PM, Smithy said:

To elaborate a bit: as I recall, every time you feed the starter you discard some and add fresh flour and water. At that stage it's relatively unsour. The longer it ferments, the more sour it becomes. Folks who really know what they're doing can time the feedings and use so that they get the sourness they want. At least, that's the way I understand the process. Someone who knows more about it (for instance, Kerry Beal or @Ann_T, but there are others) can elaborate further, and more importantly correct me if I'm wrong.

There are so many different methods, that I just found it really confusing when I decided to get into sourdough baking.  Some feed every day and waste an incredible amount of flour, some save all of their discard and use large amounts in their recipes.     So when I started to do my homework, I went with the instructions from Amy's Bread, a bakery in NY that has been around for years.  Amy Scherber's instructions were really easy to follow and once the starter was ready to maintain, it was easy to maintain as well.     I always start with a clean container.  I weigh out 172g (6 oz) of starter and feed it with 86g (3oz) of flour and 86g (3oz)of bottled water.  What is left in the original container is the discard.     I use some of the discard, either directly in to a batch of dough, or I make a preferment, usually a biga using 60 to 80g of discard into 220g of flour and 220g of water.       Once the fed starter has doubled , it goes back into the fridge until next feeding.  Even when I forget it for a couple of months, it bounces right back after one to two feedings.     I think because I am consistent with the formula for feeding, my starter seems to have a consistent sourness.   

[paul o' vendange]

I used to maintain 3 starters:

 

A stiff wheat starter, with the flour blend as used by the late French baker Gerard Rubaud (70% bread flour, 18% 50-50 blend of hard red winter and spring wheats), 9% spelt and 3% rye.  I followed his methods explicitly, which included always refreshing the starter at peak - which meant, 24/7, every 5 hours at 28C, religiously.  You got that right - woke up in the middle of the night to refresh a stiff starter.

 

A liquid rye starter.  It has been my main starter for a long time, for any kind of bread regardless of the grains or flours.  I use Central Milling's Type 85 flour, with 0.85% ash.  It corresponds to a French T85, or a German T 850 if they had it (the Germans don't have an equivalent - the closest wheat they use with this ash content would be a T 1050, with 1.05% ash).

 

Lievito madre.

 

I used to refresh the rye, my only starter for a long time, about once per week.  Now, with the LM, I do both usually at least 3x/week because although it will survive, a weekly schedule of the LM refreshment would significantly acidify the LM and defeat it's purpose, a mild, wild-yeast centric stiff starter.

 

As to the discard, I don't really use the LM discard but I do save the rye discard and make fleur de levain - adding it from time to time as a flavoring component.  Because it's spread out thinly and dried in the oven at about 200F for 90 minutes or so, it is no longer leavening.  I grind the flakes into a powder and freeze it for later use at about 1 tbsp/1 KG dough.  

Edited February 3 by paul o' vendange (log)

[Acelestialobject]

On 1/27/2025 at 11:27 AM, Acelestialobject said:

I started mine yesterday. I hope it turns out this way 🤞

Update on my starter: The site I followed used a glass bowl for the starter. The actual 'starter' was fine. It was not bubbling too much but nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately the sides of the bowl developed WHITE MOULD T_T

 

Also I started a new starter in a glass jar, so do i need to consistently wipe the walls of the jar to prevent this from happening again???

[paul o' vendange]

4 minutes ago, Acelestialobject said:

Update on my starter: The site I followed used a glass bowl for the starter. The actual 'starter' was fine. It was not bubbling too much but nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately the sides of the bowl developed WHITE MOULD T_T

 

Also I started a new starter in a glass jar, so do i need to consistently wipe the walls of the jar to prevent this from happening again???

Not sure what happened here (and are you sure it's not just dried up starter?), but over time if you keep the ambient conditions where you want them (mostly, temp, ratios of starter:water:flour), your desired species should prevail.  It's much like a brand new starter - you will pass through some truly foul-smelling and looking days, but shortly, you have a beautiful ecology of great yeasts and lactic acid bacterias.

[Acelestialobject]

10 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

and are you sure it's not just dried up starter?)

On day 5 it wasn't showing much activity. And the next day, I left it without feeding for more than 24 hours. And when I remembered to check on it it had white mould on the residue on the sides of the bowl.

 

10 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

It's much like a brand new starter - you will pass through some truly foul-smelling and looking days, but shortly, you have a beautiful ecology of great yeasts and lactic acid bacterias.

I hope to see it turn out this way Did you wipe the walls of the jar of your starter?? Is that important???

Edited February 4 by Acelestialobject (log)

[Acelestialobject]

I'm on the 8th day of my 2nd attempt. This is how my unfed starter looks today.

 

Problem is I'm not sure if its ready or not. Is this really it?

Also, I normally discard half of it, so am I to continue doing that??

 

There seems to be a float test. But there are a lot of opinions against its validity.O.o

 

Open to any advice/opinions/suggestions :))

 

 

Edited February 11 by Acelestialobject (log)

[AlaMoi]

the bubbles say it's ready.

[Acelestialobject]

3 hours ago, AlaMoi said:

the bubbles say it's ready.

Okay Off to bake my first bread then :))

[Acelestialobject]

On 1/27/2025 at 9:00 PM, Ann_T said:

Once the fed starter has doubled , it goes back into the fridge until next feeding.  Even when I forget it for a couple of months, it bounces right back after one to two feedings

Hi @Ann_T here do you mean that you feed and let it rise before refrigerating it and then you feed it again without discarding any, right when you need it??

 

I have fed mine and after it doubled kept it in the fridge. So next time I use it do I directly feed it without discarding any??

Edited February 12 by Acelestialobject (log)

[paul o' vendange]

On 2/4/2025 at 3:10 AM, Acelestialobject said:

On day 5 it wasn't showing much activity. And the next day, I left it without feeding for more than 24 hours. And when I remembered to check on it it had white mould on the residue on the sides of the bowl.

 

I hope to see it turn out this way Did you wipe the walls of the jar of your starter?? Is that important???

Sorry, missed your last line.  When developing a new starter, no, I'm not to careful.  I let the beasties fight it out, though I take reasonable measures to not introduce any contamination - clean spoons, etc.  The starter container is basically a closed system, an ecosystem, and given time and the right conditions (at this stage, mostly, temperature), it works itself out for a good starter.  Later, when actually using it in breadmaking, especially German baking, temperature, time and starter hydration ratios ("stiffness") matter when it comes to encouraging various yeast or bacterial species.  When refreshing and discarding old starter, yes, I do clean the container out each time.  Though to be honest, I don't think it's necessary.

 

As to the readiness of your starter, looks good to me.  More and more over time I not only look for activity (e.g., bubbles), but go on smell and taste.  Does it smell sharply acidic?  Does it taste pleasingly tart, or sharp, like vinegar?  Does it smell solventy, and look grayish on top?  Does it smell like good old white bread dough we made as kids - direct ferment, toss some cultured yeast in, ferment/proof/bake same day?  Does it smell like fresh green apples?  

[paul o' vendange]

8 minutes ago, Acelestialobject said:

Hi Ann here do you mean that you feed and let it rise before refrigerating it and then you feed it again without discarding any, right when you need it??

 

I have fed mine and after it doubled kept it in the fridge. So next time I use it do I directly feed it without discarding any??

It's hard to say one rule for everything, because needs can be different.  Whole grain flours provide more nutrition and enzymes (especially in the case of whole rye flour), so your culture is going to burn at hyperspeed, relative to their metabolism when using white flour.  If you want more of a leavening purpose v. flavoring component to your starters, you will want younger, fresher, vibrant starter.  

 

I used to refresh my stiff wheat starter every 5 hours - around the clock.   My rye liquid starter was refreshed twice daily.  

 

I decided to get a life.  Now, usually, I will refresh my rye starter twice weekly, and my LM 3x weekly.  Most times, I refresh the rye and LM at the same time, so they both get 3X weekly.  the rye starter is 1:1:1, 50 grams starter, 50 grams water at 40C, 50 grams "T1150," 1.15% ash, Central Milling's "medium rye flour," kept at 28C x 4 hours.  My LM is 10 grams "old" LM, 50 grams water at 35C, 100 grams T550/white bread flour, kneaded just as a bread dough, until smooth, elastic and satiny; rolled into a ball and cross-cut with scissors 1/3 of the depth down the ball.  This is also kept at 28C x 4 hours. 

 

For the rye starter, which I now use in most of my sourdoughs, even French levains (I no longer maintain 4 starters - stiff and liquid wheat, liquid rye, lievito madre), the starter has good leavening plus the more aromatic, spicier, somewhat more sour flavor component. 

 

For the LM, it's all about leavening power, and a very mild taste - like cultured dry yeast, developed with wild yeasts.  So it's all about very frequently refreshed, young yeasts, at the height of their replication period (and not after they've gone deeply into anaerobic fermentation). 

 

Though again, time, hydration ratios, temp. can all engineer different qualities.  For instance, the Germans have several regimes they do for using "Anstellgut," or starter.  1, 2 and 3 stage developments ("Detmolder Ein-, Zwei, oder Dreistufenführung" - each stage favors yeast, lactic acid bacteria, or acetic acid bacteria), a salted starter ("Monheimer Salzsauer," gives the ability for a very flexible baking day, as the starter development is retarded), a short starter process ("Berliner Kurzsauerführung") and so forth.

 

If I bake with these the next day, or day after, I usually won't refresh.  Any longer, and given my weekly schedule, I will have refreshed and used the fresh starter in the day's bake.  The German use of Anstellgut or ASG almost always, in fact, calls for a cold ASG that has sat at least overnight in the refrigerator. Of course, this cold ASG, which is the German equivalent to the French chef, is usually then used to do any of the starter regimens mentioned above.

 

I've learned to sweat it less, and pay more attention to the senses - again, smell, sight, touch of the dough, how it looks while bulk fermenting and proofing, etc.

[Acelestialobject]

15 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

Sorry, missed your last line.  When developing a new starter, no, I'm not to careful.  I let the beasties fight it out, though I take reasonable measures to not introduce any contamination - clean spoons, etc.  The starter container is basically a closed system, an ecosystem, and given time and the right conditions (at this stage, mostly, temperature), it works itself out for a good starter.  Later,then actually using it in breadmaking, especially German baking, temperature, time and starter hydration ratios ("stiffness") matter when it comes to encouraging various yeast or bacterial species.  When refreshing and discarding old starter, yes, I do clean the container out each time.  Though to be honest, I don't think it's necessary.

 

As to the readiness of your starter, looks good to me.  More and more over time I not only look for activity (e.g., bubbles), but go on smell and taste.  Does it smell sharply acidic?  Does it taste pleasingly tart, or sharp, like vinegar?  Does it smell solventy, and look grayish on top?  Does it smell like good old white bread dough we made as kids - direct ferment, toss some cultured yeast in, ferment/proof/bake same day?  Does it smell like fresh green apples?  

 

 

15 hours ago, paul o' vendange said:

I've learned to sweat it less, and pay more attention to the senses - again, smell, sight, touch of the dough, how it looks while bulk fermenting and proofing, etc.

Thank you so much Paul..I have successfully started a starter in my second attempt thanks to you and the people of this forum I'll be sure to observe it with sight,smell and texture as you have mentioned to keep it going as long as it can..Also at the moment it doesn't have an intense smell, just a pleasantly tart smell.

[Ann_T]

17 hours ago, Acelestialobject said:

Hi @Ann_T here do you mean that you feed and let it rise before refrigerating it and then you feed it again without discarding any, right when you need it??

 

I have fed mine and after it doubled kept it in the fridge. So next time I use it do I directly feed it without discarding any??

Every time I feed I discard.  And the discard gets used in a preferment.   

 

When I feed my starter I stir it well and  weigh out 172g of starter (6oz) and feed it with 86g organic rye flour (3oz) and 86g of bottled water (3oz) and leave it on the counter to more than double. Then it goes back into the fridge

until I feed it again.   

 

What is left in the container, is the discard.  And I don't have a lot of discard.  Sometimes I just toss 60 to 80g of discard into a batch of dough, but usually I make a preferment.

The easiest to make is the biga.  My regular biga is 220g of flour, 220g of water and 80g of discard.  Mix well, cover and leave to double.  This gets added to 1000g of flour, along with the water and salt.  If your

starter is strong there is no need to add yeast, but if you want insurance, add a gram of yeast.

 

NOTE:  As long as it is fed with in two weeks, I can use the discard in a batch of bread.  If I leave it in the fridge too long, I follow the same formula above, but after it has doubled, I will feed it again, using some of the discard in a preferment.