Canned Tomatoes

[BJL]

Can someone tell me where DiPaolo's is? I would love to pick up some tomatoes. Thanks.

[jogoode]

Can someone tell me where DiPaolo's is? I would love to pick up some tomatoes. Thanks.

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Di Palo's is at the corner of Grand and Mott.

[Fat Guy]

In my opinion the best deal you can get on high-quality Italian canned tomatoes is at Teitel Brothers on Arthur Avenue. A gigantic can of Francesconi brand tomatoes -- 6 lb 9 oz -- is $3.99. They are not San Marzano but they are very good, grown and packed in Italy. The 35 oz cans are $1.39 and a case of 12 cans is $15.50.

[Fat Guy]

I've bought these several times and have liked them, however after reading this thread I checked the cans and they do not say "D.O.P."

So are they or aren't they?

---Guy

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The San Marzano Imports site is full of ambiguity and wiggle words. For example, on the home page there's a link to a certification document that, if you read it, means little. There is lots of talk about San Marzano tomatoes and how great they are, but nary a mention of the DOP concept. Articles about San Marzano tomatoes in general -- as opposed to this particular brand -- are cited as testimonials.

[Moopheus]

A gigantic can of Francesconi brand tomatoes -- 6 lb 9 oz -- is $3.99. They are not San Marzano but they are very good, grown and packed in Italy.

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Yes, it's worth noting here that while DOP San Marzano tomatoes are nice to have when you can get your hands on them at a good price, it doesn't necessarily mean that other canned tomatoes are bad; in fact they may be perfectly good, and those 3-kilo cans are often quite cheap for what you get.

[rich]

The 35 ounce can of San Marzanos from BuonItalia in my cupboard was $1.95....but it doesn't have D.O.P. on label...not that I can find.

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If it doesn't say DOP on the label it isn't. That does not mean that they aren't good tomatoes, but true DOP San Marzanos are at least a step up from most of the canned competition and even compare favorably to most fresh tomatoes.

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Only recently did learn that D.O.P. on the can means it's the real thing. I had always wondered why the San Marzanos I was buying weren't inspiring. I bought some fake San Marzanos -- "packed in San Marzano" -- at Fairway the other day. They were $1.67 a can -- I'll report on them once I try them. I often use Scalfani crushed tomatoes, which if you add enough butter taste pretty good.

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Why on earth would you add butter to Italian gravy? The only places that do this are those commercial restaurants that cater to the uninformed such as the Don Peppe's and the clones - La Parma, etc.

[jogoode]

Why on earth would you add butter to Italian gravy? The only places that do this are those commercial restaurants that cater to the uninformed such as the Don Peppe's and the clones - La Parma, etc.

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It make such an amazing sauce! The recipe is from a Marcella Hazan cookbook.

[rich]

Why on earth would you add butter to Italian gravy? The only places that do this are those commercial restaurants that cater to the uninformed such as the Don Peppe's and the clones - La Parma, etc.

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It make such an amazing sauce! The recipe is from a Marcella Hazan cookbook.

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I'm sure it tastes fine and I should have guessed it was a Hazan recipe. However, she doesn't cook real Italian, at least in my opinion. She's more of an American-Italian icon.

[slkinsey]

Why on earth would you add butter to Italian gravy?.

It make such an amazing sauce! The recipe is from a Marcella Hazan cookbook.

I'm sure it tastes fine and I should have guessed it was a Hazan recipe. However, she doesn't cook real Italian, at least in my opinion. She's more of an American-Italian icon.

Marcella Hazan?! Have you read her books? She is anything but an icon of America-Italian food. Her Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking is considered the definitive English language cookbook on Italian cooking.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that butter and tomato in a pasta condiment isn't Italian. There is a very large area of Italy for which butter is the traditional lipid of choice. In fact, I would assert that there are many pasta sauces that cannot be properly made without using butter.

I'm asking this with all due respect and out of curiosity: what is your basis for thinking that Hazan's recipes aren't "real Italian?" You've spent a lot of time in Italy cooking? Again, I mean no disrespect in asking this. It's just that I have spent a lot of time in Italy cooking, and her recipes seem plenty Italian to me. In re to the butter/olive oil thing, my perspective on this may have to do with the fact that I have spent a large percentage of my time in there in areas "on the border between butter country and olive oil country."

[jogoode]

Sam was the one who turned me on to the recipe. Or was it Joe Bavuso?

[slkinsey]

Sam was the one who turned me on to the recipe. Or was it Joe Bavuso?

Could be either one. Joe turned me on to the cold pan method, but I've talked about it quite a bit.

[rich]

Marcella Hazan?!    Have you read her books?  She is anything but an icon of America-Italian food.  Her Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking is considered the definitive English language cookbook on Italian cooking.

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that butter and tomato in a pasta condiment isn't Italian.  There is a very large area of Italy for which butter is the traditional lipid of choice.  In fact, I would assert that there are many pasta sauces that cannot be properly made without using butter.

I'm asking this with all due respect and out of curiosity: what is your basis for thinking that Hazan's recipes aren't "real Italian?"  You've spent a lot of time in Italy cooking?  Again, I mean no disrespect in asking this.  It's just that I have spent a lot of time in Italy cooking, and her recipes seem plenty Italian to me.  In re to the butter/olive oil thing, my perspective on this may have to do with the fact that I have spent a large percentage of my time in there in areas "on the border between butter country and olive oil country."

Actually, I've read most of her books and agree with her recipes except the red gravy/butter concoctions. But I believe she has Americanized most of her recipes -don't read into that as being a bad thing. It's very similar to what Julia Child did with French recipes.

My family is/was from the Naples/Bari area and I have never seen or heard of any of them or their friends using butter in a tomato gravy. Yes, butter is used in many of their recipes, but not that one.

I have not spent time in Italy cooking myself, but have watched relatives both here and there cook. I've spoken to several about the butter aspect when I first learned some NYC restaurants were doing that. Unanimously, I was told it wasn't done with red (tomato) gravy.

In your experience, what areas of Italy use butter in red/tomato gravy?

[slkinsey]

My family is/was from the Naples/Bari area and I have never seen or heard of any of them or their friends using butter in a tomato gravy. Yes, butter is used in many of their recipes, but not that one. . . Unanimously, I was told it wasn't done with red (tomato) gravy.

Well, the location may have a lot to do with it. I suspected you might have a Southern perspective when you used the word "gravy," which seems to be used almost exclusively by Italian-Americans of Southern Italian extraction.

Naples, of course, is smack in the middle of olive oil country. I have to assume that butter is only rarely used in the traditional cooking of that region. Since Naples is justly proud of its tomatoes and pasta asciutta -- and knowing the usual Italian orgoglio della zona -- it's not surprising that Napoletani/Baresi would insist on the local traditional methods of preparation and eschew butter.

FWIW, I have tried making the simple "cold pan sauce" (tomatoes, fat and a halved onion) using both butter and evoo. In fact, I once did parallel batches so I could taste them side by side. They were both good, but entirely different. Most everyone agreed that the butter sauce was better.

In your experience, what areas of Italy use butter in red/tomato gravy?

The butter areas, which also tend to be the fresh pasta areas. Bologna has Burro e Oro, for example.

I wouldn't want a tomato and evoo sauce on tagliatelle.

[rich]

FWIW, I have tried making the simple "cold pan sauce" (tomatoes, fat and a halved onion) using both butter and evoo.  In fact, I once did parallel batches so I could taste them side by side.  They were both good, but entirely different.  Most everyone agreed that the butter sauce was better.

In your experience, what areas of Italy use butter in red/tomato gravy?

The butter areas, which also tend to be the fresh pasta areas. Bologna has Burro e Oro, for example.

I wouldn't want a tomato and evoo sauce on tagliatelle.

Interesting. It proves you're never too old to learn something. Wait until I tell my mother. At 76, she'll probably never try it. In fact, when I make my next batch of gravy I'll think about using butter, but I'm sure I won't be able. I will, however, use it is a cold pan sauce - maybe a puttanesca?

[Moopheus]

I'm also not sure where you get the idea that butter and tomato in a pasta condiment isn't Italian.  There is a very large area of Italy for which butter is the traditional lipid of choice.  In fact, I would assert that there are many pasta sauces that cannot be properly made without using butter.

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Would you include pesto in that? Hazan's recipe for basil pesto includes butter. I tried it her way once and it didn't thrill me.

[slkinsey]

Interesting. It proves you're never too old to learn something. Wait until I tell my mother. At 76, she'll probably never try it. In fact, when I make my next batch of gravy I'll think about using butter, but I'm sure I won't be able. I will, however, use it is a cold pan sauce - maybe a puttanesca?

To be honest, I'm not sure the cold pan method (putting everything into a cold pan all at once and slowly taking it up to a simmer) works all that great for anything other than the simplest sauce. A key part of the technique for the cold pan sauce I usually make is that the extra vegetables (the onion and sometimes a few stalks of celery) are tossed out when the sauce is ready. They're just in there for flavoring.

Puttanesca -- one of my favorites, and one I like with tons of evoo -- sort of depends on dissolving the anchovies in hot oil, doesn't it?

The nice thing about the tomato/onion/butter cold pan sauce is that it also takes very little time/effort to make -- especially compared to some of the long-simmered Southern Italian sauces. You can chuck a can of San Marzano's into a pan with several tablespoons of butter, a hefty pinch of salt and a halved onion, set the burner on medium-low and come back 30-40 minutes later to a finished sauce. This preparation, more than any other I know, brings out the sweetness of high quality canned tomatoes.

Would you include pesto in that? Hazan's recipe for basil pesto includes butter. I tried it her way once and it didn't thrill me.

Afaik, Pesto alla Genovese contains some butter.

[docsconz]

Rich, I am from a southrn Italian backgrounf also, only by way of Brooklyn. To us "gravy" meant a tomato sauce with meat. Any other tomato sauce was a "sauce". As for the butter aspect, it is most certainly not of southern Italian origen, but is quite delicious.

Speaking of Joe, I just made him a dish of simple pasta with nothing but EVOO, pomodorini del Vesuvio and S&P. Those tomatoes are so good, they are better than anything that can be added to them, IMO.

[rich]

I recall a dish - not sure where it is right now - that cooks anchovies in butter, then adds evoo some basil, parsley, white wine and chopped onions. I will look it up tonight.

[slkinsey]

I recall a dish - not sure where it is right now - that cooks anchovies in butter, then adds evoo some basil, parsley, white wine and chopped onions. I will look it up tonight.

With those ingredients, it sounds like a sure winner!

[rich]

Rich, I am from a southrn Italian backgrounf also, only by way of Brooklyn. To us "gravy" meant a tomato sauce with meat. Any other tomato sauce was a "sauce". As for the butter aspect, it is most certainly not of southern Italian origen, but is quite delicious.

Speaking of Joe, I just made him a dish of simple pasta with nothing but EVOO, pomodorini del Vesuvio and S&P. Those tomatoes are so good, they are better than anything that can be added to them, IMO.

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Doc, I guess that's a family-to family thing. We just referred to it as gravy, without meat was called marinara. The word stood alone - no sauce or gravy attached. As far as butter, it just wasn't used with tomatoes - even when my mother made Chritmas Eve Gravy (with baccala). Just for the record that's one of my favorites.

[jogoode]

Rich, I am from a southrn Italian backgrounf also, only by way of Brooklyn. To us "gravy" meant a tomato sauce with meat. Any other tomato sauce was a "sauce". As for the butter aspect, it is most certainly not of southern Italian origen, but is quite delicious.

Speaking of Joe, I just made him a dish of simple pasta with nothing but EVOO, pomodorini del Vesuvio and S&P. Those tomatoes are so good, they are better than anything that can be added to them, IMO.

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Hey now, guys. Back to canned tomatoes...

Doc, what are these pomodorini del Vesuvio and where can I buy them?

[markk]

So, where can I find real canned San Marzanos, or any other high-quality canned tomatoes?

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the "Precious Tuscan Tomato", an organic, vine-ripened, peeled, whole canned plum tomato from Tuscany. I first saw them at Whole Foods and read on the label "For centuries, Tuscany was renowned in Italy for the distinctive flavor of its tomatoes. When modern harvesting techniques were introduced in Italy, it became impractical to grow and harvest tomatoes in the region's small, hilly farmland. Therefore, the Tuscan tomato slowly lost commercial fame... taste these tomatoes and rediscover a flavor delicately preserved in time" and I fell for it and bought a can. I found that the tomato is intensely flavorful and lives up to its hype. I've compared it side-by-side to the brands of San Marzano tomatoes that were always my favorites, (some of which were organic to boot) and much to my surprise, "The Precious Tuscan Tomato" is significantly riper and more flavorful than any of them.

Anyhow, they're in a yellow can which says "Rediscover the Precious Tuscan Tomato", they're produced by a company called Bionaturae (www.bionaturae.com), and are at the very least available at Whole Foods. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of anybody who tries them.

(They come whole, or diced, or pureed - I prefer the whole, as with any canned tomato.

Whole Foods seems to carry all three.)

Edited February 18, 2005 by markk (log)

[JosephB]

I hope to get some of the 2004 crop DOP this weekend to compare to the 2003 crop and non-DOP San Marzano supply I have.

Yes, the pomodorini del Vesuvio that doc prepared at his home were extraordinary, and best left unadorned.

Edited February 19, 2005 by JosephB (log)

[greenwich st]

I just read somewhere that those Pomi packs are superior to canned tomatoes -- I haven't been able to find them yet but does anyone agree? I've been using Muir Glen -- I will certainly try to find all these new varieties, thanks for this thread!

[jogoode]

I hope to get some of the 2004 crop DOP this weekend to compare to the 2003 crop and non-DOP San Marzano supply I have.

Yes, the pomodorini del Vesuvio that doc prepared at his home were extraordinary, and best left unadorned.

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Hey Joe,

Where can I find the Vesuvio tomatoes? And is the crop year printed on the can? I'm going to hit Di Palo's tomorrow to see what they've got.

I just read somewhere that those Pomi packs are superior to canned tomatoes -- I haven't been able to find them yet but does anyone agree?  I've been using Muir Glen -- I will certainly try to find all these new varieties, thanks for this thread!

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Welcome, greenwich st! I thought I saw Pomi at the SoHo Dean & Deluca. I've never tried them.