Is beer more complex than wine?

[Hector Litre]

9 hours ago, Duvel said:

Neither should beer ...

 

Says who?  You DO realize Belgian Ales have all sorts of ingredients in them, right?

[Duvel]

41 minutes ago, Hector Litre said:

 

Says who?  You DO realize Belgian Ales have all sorts of ingredients in them, right?

 

Me 😊

 

Followed by: Don‘t feed the trolls ...

[teonzo]

4 hours ago, Duvel said:

Followed by: Don‘t feed the trolls ...

 

Depends on the troll, some are worth the money:

https://www.birrificiotroll.it/

(no English version, people in this country will never learn)

 

 

 

Teo

 

[nickrey]

On 10/26/2019 at 2:44 AM, Hector Litre said:

 

Believe me, I've read way more than you have.  Way more.  There is no such thing as "ambient yeasts".  They are wild strains.  And I know which ones do what to wine. 

 

Funny, I've almost completed the Diploma of wine, which is the level below a Master of Wine so I'd sincerely doubt your first statement. 

 

Quote from the Oxford Companion to Wine: Ambient yeast, are those that are present in the vineyard and winery, as opposed to inoculated, cultured yeast.

 

I'm leaving this discussion now as rational discussion from a position of knowledge does not seem to be happening.

[liuzhou]

1 hour ago, nickrey said:

I'm leaving this discussion now as rational discussion from a position of knowledge does not seem to be happening.

 

Yes, too much hectoring going on.

[Hector Litre]

4 hours ago, nickrey said:

Funny, I've almost completed the Diploma of wine, which is the level below a Master of Wine so I'd sincerely doubt your first statement. 

 

Quote from the Oxford Companion to Wine: Ambient yeast, are those that are present in the vineyard and winery, as opposed to inoculated, cultured yeast.

 

I'm leaving this discussion now as rational discussion from a position of knowledge does not seem to be happening.

 

How much beer do you have in your wine program?  Second, yeast is microbiology, not a food person's tool.  Fermentation done this way was natural well before people started making wine.  

 

I guess nobody's up for a proper discussion, other than negation.  I was hoping this forum would have people that don't get ticked at reality.  

[liuzhou]

17 minutes ago, Hector Litre said:

yeast is microbiology, not a food person's tool

 

I don't even know what that is meant to mean. It's nonsensical.

[Hector Litre]

4 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

 

I don't even know what that is meant to mean. It's nonsensical.

 

It makes perfect sense.  Yeast doesn't exist for fermentation.  Yeast is a group of organisms.  The wine world simply cannot rename parts of microbiology because it's convenient to wine.  But then again, it's completely expected from the wine community.  

 

Edited:  Maybe it's still unclear.  Fungi behave the way they do well before any fermentation for ethanol for humans.  Terminology goes way beyond any food application, beer, wine, cheese, distilled spirits.  

Edited October 28, 2019 by Hector Litre (log)

[liuzhou]

Of course yeast is a food tool. You mean it  is not only a food tool.

 

Yeast doesn't exist for fermentation the same way food doesn't exist for eating.

 

Goodbye.

[teonzo]

8 minutes ago, liuzhou said:

Yeast doesn't exist for fermentation the same way food doesn't exist for eating.

 

You mean the goal of all those wild ducks is not ending up as my dinner? That's depressing.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[cdh]

On 8/22/2006 at 1:24 PM, cdh said:

This sounds like an objective statement that can be proven or disproven quantitatively. A little gas chromatography should reveal how many different flavorful compounds are in a sample of either drink... do enough samples and you should be able to get an idea of whether the statement is true or not.

 

FFS.  I said it 13 years ago, and I'll quote myself to buttress the point.  Complexity can be measured objectively.  Do the tests.  Tell us where more different compounds are identified, the wine samples or the beer samples. There, you have your answer.  All this facile "there more stuff you can put in beer, so it is more complex" vs. "nature does more stuff to the grapes so it's more complex" vs. yeast technicalities blather is getting us no place.  

[paulraphael]

On 10/28/2019 at 1:50 PM, cdh said:

 

FFS.  I said it 13 years ago, and I'll quote myself to buttress the point.  Complexity can be measured objectively.  Do the tests.  Tell us where more different compounds are identified, the wine samples or the beer samples. There, you have your answer.  All this facile "there more stuff you can put in beer, so it is more complex" vs. "nature does more stuff to the grapes so it's more complex" vs. yeast technicalities blather is getting us no place.  

 

I'll risk jumping into an arguably pointless discussion, because it might be more entertaining that working on the deadline looming over my head.

 

I think you could objectively test a particular wine against a particular beer for complexity. But how would you test Wine (capital W— meaning the world of wine, against Beer, capital B—meaning the world of beer)? Like most such comparisons, it would likely devolve into a taxonomic one ("that's not really a beer!" "Yes it is!" Which has already started happening upthread).

 

In this case I think we'll find that the definitions of complexity reside in the assumptions and biases rooted in the minds of whoever's doing the comparison. To me this kind of discussion = Not Interesting.

 

We can safely say that the worlds of wine and beer are each massively complex. More than any one person can wrap their head around. For some people, this complexity may increase their enjoyment—but it's already of such a high order that a little more or a little less complexity in either world will make no practical difference. What's the difference between there 100 flavor compounds that you'll never be able to identify, and there being 1000? What's the difference between there being 100 styles of beer you'll never have time to try, and there being 500?

 

There are much more interesting pissing contests to bet on. 

Edited July 17, 2020 by paulraphael (log)

[teonzo]

2 hours ago, paulraphael said:

There are much more interesting pissing contests to bet on. 

 

I dare to say that beer is the best fuel for a pissing contest.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[Duvel]

5 minutes ago, teonzo said:

 

I dare to say that beer is the best fuel for a pissing contest.

 

 

 

Teo

 

I trust you never had a night of whiskey highballs ... kidney-friendliest drink there is !

[teonzo]

19 hours ago, Duvel said:

I trust you never had a night of whiskey highballs ... kidney-friendliest drink there is !

 

I confess my total ignorance. This will be corrected soon. I'll add some elderflower cordial, just to be sure.

 

 

 

Teo

 

[paulraphael]

So. It's time to move on to an actual pissing contest.

 

We must include the Tequila Anaconda. Mentioned in what may the best opening line ever, in Joni Mitchell's "Talk to Me":

 

There was a moon and a street lamp

I didn't know I drank such a lot

'Til I pissed a tequila anaconda

The full length of the parking lot

 

Trouble is, whenever I look up the drink by name, I just get google links back to the song lyrics. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

Anaconda may allude to the length of the snake.

 

[paulraphael]

If no one knows of a drink by this name, then we may to invent one and send the recipe to Ms. Mitchell. I've heard she's under the weather and might appreciate some cheering up.

[TabethaRules]

This is a tough question. Technically, yes. it uses 4 primary ingredients (grain, hops, yeast, water). Which is more than the 3 primary ingredients in wine.

 

That being said "complexity" is more than just the amount of ingredients. Wine tends to vary in taste greatly from region to region just by suble differences in the primary ingredients and bottling/brewing process.

 

Ultimately it just depends who you ask.