Food and Wine Pairings

[M.X.Hassett]

Not much to add. I think sherry would go nicely considering TK's recipe calls for sherry vinegar. Although I have seen other recipes that call for port(LHBoardain), red wine, white wine, and sherry(not vinegar Me). Plus that menu looks awesome.

[Jason Perlow]

That's a very rich line up of dishes, Chuck. I would stay on the light side and progress into more powerful wines with each dish. I'd go with the sherry (manzanilla perhaps), cidre or spanish sidra (sparkling cider) or a champagne/sparkler to start. The Alsatian might be too boozy for a first course, perhaps with the Pork, go germanic and get a Kabinett level Riesling or the Alsatian Gewurtz. Maybe Chenin Blanc or Sauvignon Blanc. The shepherd's pie is going to demand a serious red so you could do your Burgundy then. What are you going to serve with the Pot de Creme? Banyuls? Thats a good wine to match with dark chocolate desserts.

Course if you wanna be festive you start with Beaujelais Nouveau. All the cool kids are doing it. Thats pretty low impact but I like the idea of starting with whites and progressing into reds.

[Bill Miller]

what was suggested as the traditional accompaniment, a Dry Gewürztraminer or Pinot Gris

←

First time I've heard that. Every French food-and-wine pairing book I've seen has indicated that the traditional accompaniment to French onion or any other soup is no wine at all.

Have read that at Les Halles they served FOS with Beaujolais or young Côtes-du-Rhône.

Personally, I'd probably opt for a generic Burgundy or a fruity white from Gaillac, Jurançon or elsewhere in the Southwest. But, then again, I'd probably forego the Port.

A while back, an e-friend organized a comparison tasting that involved onion soup and several red wines, ranging from zinfandel and Amarone to a $3.99 vin de table from Trader Joe's. The Amarone and Médoc were not good matches; the zin, a Beaujolais and a generic French merlot were OK; to everyone's astonishment, the VDT took the prize. Make of that what you will.

←

I love a Rioja with a creamy mushroom soup, but have enjoyed a crisp dry gin martini with New England clam chowder and had the first wine course with the next item on the menu. How about being creative and find a cocktail to go with onion soup. Heresy, I know.

[chuckyoufarley]

That's a very rich line up of dishes, Chuck. I would stay on the light side and progress into more powerful wines with each dish. I'd go with the sherry (manzanilla perhaps), cidre or spanish sidra (sparkling cider) or a champagne/sparkler to start. The Alsatian might be too boozy for a first course, perhaps with the Pork, go germanic and get a Kabinett level Riesling or the Alsatian Gewurtz. Maybe Chenin Blanc or Sauvignon Blanc. The shepherd's pie is going to demand a serious red so you could do your Burgundy then. What are you going to serve with the Pot de Creme? Banyuls? Thats a good wine to match with dark chocolate desserts.

Course if you wanna be festive you start with Beaujelais Nouveau. All the cool kids are doing it.  Thats pretty low impact but I like the idea of starting with whites and progressing into reds.

←

Jason,

I appreciate your advice.

The menu is a bit rich.

We are doing tiny portions to keep the cost and distended bloat down.

All my friends and I tend to have a deep lust for "winter" cooking.

This is going to be our first cold weather (I live in Southern Cal ) get together and none of us tend to finesse anything.

I am going to try a sherry as well as a bottle of Manoir D' Apreval Cidre I picked up today.

Nothing like being able to take one dinner and booze and turn it into two nights in a row.

Shaun

Edited November 8, 2005 by chuckyoufarley (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

Chuck, please post about how the dinner goes.

[JohnL]

I need some help here.

My friends and I are going to being having a dinner party this weekend.

I have been given the task to serve a classic French Onion soup.

Rather than going the regular route I have taken it upon myself to commit to Thomas Keller's Bouchon cookbook, 2-3 day, 8 hour stock, 6 hour Onion carmelization Zen patience endurance test.

I also have some intention to float a whisper of port on top of the crust.

That said I also need a libation to pair with the soup.

I have done some research that has produced suggestions of Merlot, Beaujolais Nouveau, a sherry, and what was suggested as the traditional accompaniment, a Dry Gewürztraminer or Pinot Gris.

My assumption is that the soup will be really sweet with all the time invested with the onions.

I also am going to go with a Gruyere for the crust.  I have a pretty decent relatively low pungent sample I’m going to use.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Shaun

←

I know this isn't wine, but when thinking about a really good onion soup--one pairing keeps forcing its way into my head--a really fine dark beer or Belgium Ale.

I can think of no wine that would, to me, work as well.

[Bubbalicious]

I know this isn't wine, but when thinking about a really good onion soup--one pairing keeps forcing its way into my head--a really fine dark beer or Belgium Ale.

I can think of no wine that would, to me, work as well.

←

I have to agree. I am by no means a Sommelier, but I did take all the classes to improve my abilities as a server. For the food and wine pairing segment of my final exam we were allowed to pair any alcoholic beverage with the given menus, up to two non-wine choices per menu.

We were given a rustic French menu where the second course was onion soup. I paired a great Ale from England called Traquair Jacobite Ale. It's a dark, chocolatey, rich beer with a medium body, light acidity and it is extremely well-balanced. The touch of sweetness on the finish would counter the saltiness of the soup nicely. I felt that the matching was inspired and I think my prof did as well.

I would be really interested to find out how the cider does with the soup. Please let us know.

[chuckyoufarley]

Howdy folks.

The dinner was a success.

The pairing was adequate

My assessment of what to pair with the soup would be nothing or whatever the hell you feel like drinking.

The Friday before the dinner I did a test run to suss out a match.

I tried a dry Alsatian Gwertz, which I thought was good but had too much Lychee and sweet happening in the nose ( although the wine was very dry and almost racy) to make a valid pairing.

I tried an Alsatian Pinot Gris. Which was a good wine with not a lot of complexity.

The wine almost had a NZ Sauv Blanc thing happening.

The wines moderate nose and balanced acidity paired well with the sweet richness of the soup. But overall it just did not have that seamless give and take a good wine pairing should create.

I tried the Cidre which was again close. The sweet and tart worked pretty good.

The pairing was more like interesting than a great pairing.

I then tried a Fischer Amber beer. An Alsatian beer that had pretty good maltiness without being sweet and not overly hoppy. I kind of preferred the beer but decided against serving it to the group during dinner. I assumed it might be slightly too pedestrian to serve beer after all the champagne the women were drinking during apps.

Also tried a good Manzanilla sherry which was a decent fit but like the beer just figured it was a little odd to serve to a few of the folks that were joining us for the first time.

Lastly at the dinner we had one guest bring a couple bottles of Beaujolais Nouveau.. Again a good but not great match.

So what I found out was that of all the stuff I tried (which were all high quality classic versions of the varietals) just did not seem to make a pairing that elevated the parts of the sum. If that makes any sense.

All of the booze played well together but did not have that rare give and take chemistry that collectively creates something completely new and thrilling.

That said, I am sure there is a great accompaniment to the soup. I just did not find it this weekend.

In the grand scheme of things it did not really matter.

The food was so over the top delicious that no one noticed.

Burning through 16 bottles of wine and champagne didnt hurt either

My buddy Jason (Sisefromm) is going to post some pics and I'm sure give a review of some sort if you are interested.

Sorry I couldn’t close the loop on this quandary.

I tried, just ask my punch drunk liver and kidneys.

Shaun

Edited November 14, 2005 by chuckyoufarley (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Great notes, Shaun. Makes me feel like I'm right there tasting along with you . . . looking forward to the pics, for sure!

[Brad Ballinger]

In the grand scheme of things it did not really matter.

←

Hey, if the wine didn't upstage the food for better or worse, I'd say it was a good match.

[JohnL]

Howdy folks.

The dinner was a success.

The pairing was adequate

My assessment of what to pair with the soup would be nothing or whatever the hell you feel like drinking.

The Friday before the dinner I did a test run to suss out a match.

I tried a dry Alsatian Gwertz, which I thought was good but had too much Lychee and sweet happening in the nose ( although the wine was very dry and almost racy)  to make a valid pairing.

I tried an Alsatian Pinot Gris.  Which was a good wine with not a lot of complexity.

The wine almost had a NZ Sauv Blanc thing happening.

The wines moderate nose and balanced acidity paired well with the sweet richness of the soup.  But overall it just did not have that seamless give and take a good wine pairing should create.

I tried the Cidre which was again close.  The sweet and tart worked pretty good.

The pairing was more like interesting than a great pairing.

I then tried a Fischer Amber beer.  An Alsatian beer that had pretty good maltiness without being sweet and not overly hoppy.  I kind of preferred the beer but decided against serving it to the group during dinner.  I assumed it might be slightly too pedestrian to serve beer after all the champagne the women were drinking during apps.

Also tried a good Manzanilla sherry which was a decent fit but like the beer just figured it was a little odd to serve to a few of the folks that were joining us for the first time.

Lastly at the dinner we had one guest bring a couple bottles of Beaujolais Nouveau..  Again a good but not great match.

So what I found out was that of all the stuff I tried (which were all high quality classic versions of the varietals) just did not seem to make a pairing that elevated the parts of the sum.  If that makes any sense. 

All of the booze played well together but did not have that rare give and take chemistry that collectively creates something completely new and thrilling.

That said, I am sure there is a great accompaniment to the soup.  I just did not find it this weekend.

In the grand scheme of things it did not really matter.

The food was so over the top delicious that no one noticed.

Burning through 16 bottles of wine and champagne didnt hurt either

My buddy Jason (Sisefromm) is going to post some pics and I'm sure give a review of some sort if you are interested.

Sorry I couldn’t close the loop on this quandary. 

I tried, just ask my punch drunk liver and kidneys.

Shaun

←

Well, just reading this was a lot of fun!

I can only imagine what the actual experience was like.

In the end, I think you discovered something that I have (and am still discovering).

The whole idea of food and wine is to have fun.

There are precious few examples of food and wine pairing perfection. That is where the wine and the food combine to create something greater than the sum of the two components.

Most often one finds a "peaceful" coexistance and enjoys the food and enjoys the wine.

[Rebel Rose]

A discussion in FM&N and a current thread on pairing wine with French onion soup got me thinking . . .

Assuming that "vegetarian" entrees might include fish or eggs, but with an emphasis on truly veg dishes, what are some excellent pairings that you have tried? Are there wines you would fall back on when unsure?

Some of my favorite veg entrees:

* A classic veg dish with wine, of course, would be linguine with white truffles.

* Spinach and mushroom lasagna, or eggplant lasagna, or eggplant Parmesan

* We often make frittatas for dinner (heavy on the mushrooms) and we call them "crustless pizza." Or use the bread machine to produce a simple pizza crust which we roll and stuff with cheese, for an heirloom tomato, caramelized onion, and basil pizza.

* Mushroom and asparagus risotto (I seem to be big on mushrooms . . .)

Not to mention the salads, soups, side dishes like grilled portabellas with Gorgonzola, and desserts that are all veg and go well with wine.

Since I love mushrooms (apparently) I tend to gravitate toward pinot noir or sangiovese for these dishes, although I also love an oily roussanne or Rhone white blend as well.

[Brad Ballinger]

In her great cookbook, Vegatarian Cooking for Everyone, Deborah Madison devotes a couple of pages to pairing wine with vegetarian cuisine.

[Milagai]

Don't know much about wine, but people have recommended that

wines from Alsace - not just gewurtztraminer for Indian food,

vegetarian or otherwise...

My point is that it's the spice level and content of the food, not

whether it's vegetarian or not, that may be the key....

(and no, if it contains fish it's not vegetarian )

Here's one opinion on which wines to pair with Indian food:

http://www.viewlondon.co.uk/eat_feat_wine_curry.asp

And here's a link for wine with vegetarian food:

http://wine.newarchaeology.com/wine_vegetarian.php

Milagai

[laurenkusa]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books. I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving. Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal? What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

Edited November 15, 2005 by laurenkusa (log)

[jsolomon]

Pinot gris is good with crudite platters (especially if they aren't overpowered by a really creamy dip)

German wines, for instance Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Spatburgunder would be wonderful. Ask your wine purveyor for a QbA or a QmP German wine and you'll be set for wines that aren't necessarily American classical Pinot or Chardonnay.

[carswell]

Four more that spring to mind:

- A dry to off-dry Alsatian gewurztraminier with red-skinned new potatoes boiled until just tender, sliced while hot, piled into a buttered baking dish, topped with slices of raw-milk Munster, sprinkled with cumin seeds and run under the broiler until the chesse melts and bubbles.

- Nebbiolo, mature enough to be yielding, young enough to be vibrant, with a tortino gorgonzola (individual gorgonzola soufflé).

- Mature nebbiolo, Burgundy and Claret with mushroom ragout.

- Provençal-type rosé with tarte aux blettes (swiss chard, golden raisin and pine nut pie in an olive oil crust dusted before serving with powdered sugar).

[JohnL]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books.  I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving.  Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal?  What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

←

Nothing wrong with chardonnay or Pinot!

actually why not try a

Beaujolais--cru like Morgon from a good producer etc.

Rhone-either a cotes du Rhone or a Cote Rotie from someone like Guigal or a Chateauneuf du Pape.

for whites: how about a Vouvray (chenin blanc) or a sancerre (sauvignon blanc)?

If you want to stay with an American theme--

Try a good syrah from California or a Zinfandel.

Oregon produces some good pinot blancs and Washington State has some good

Merlots.

Best advice I can give is to check out a good local wine shop. (hopefully there is one)

and put them to the test!--a good relationship with a conscientious wine merchant is invaluable!

[Brad Ballinger]

Well I will have to see if I can find those books.  I just got a book from the library by andrea immer about pairing so i hope that will help.

Of course, here is my latest crisis: Thanksgiving.  Everything is pinot noir or chardonney.

Has anyone tried drinking something other than these 2 wines during the meal?  What did you like?

thanks again,

Lauren

←

Here are some other wines that generally get recommended:

Zinfandel since it's an American wine to go with an American holiday (although recent research has shown that the grape used to make zinfandel is actually Croatian in origin, or something like that).

Riesling either from Alsace or Germany (and you could also include Australia).

Sparkling wines, which is what I usually serve.

Beaujolais Nouveau since it comes to the market one week before.

[Rebel Rose]

Thanks, Milagai and carswell.

A quick search also turns up a previous thread on Reds with Indian Cuisine.

I associate a lot of spice and heat with Indian cuisines, however, so that would be a challenging matchup for wine . . .

And a clip from my cookbook, Fresh from Dover Canyon:

Wines are generally paired with food around two criteria—weight and flavor.  It sounds odd at first to think of wine having weight, but wine does have a certain heft on the palate.  Some of that heft is due to tannic structure—Cabernets and Syrahs have plenty of tannin, while Pinot Noirs are generally lighter. A wine’s weight also depends on its alcohol content.  Higher levels of alcohol give wine a thicker mouthfeel.  Wines with a higher alcohol content cling to the glass more, having thicker "legs," and considerably more weight on the palate.  Swirled water, for instance, has no legs—but swirled brandy has drips like cake frosting. 

To choose a wine for a particular dish or meal, I  consider the weight of the food before anything else.  If it’s heirloom tomatoes, lightly oiled pasta, salad, or pale meats, I would choose from a spectrum of wines that might include whites and light-bodied reds.  If a dish involves red meat, heavy sauces, and comforting carbohydrates like mashed potatoes, I would gravitate toward heavier reds like Cabernet, Syrah, and Zinfandel.

The second pairing criterion is flavor.  I try to match wines with foods that have similar flavors.  The tricky thing is to look for flavors that are really evident in the dish, because sauces, grilling, and herbs can really affect the overall flavor and feel of a dish.    For instance, we like to grill racks of baby New Zealand lamb, rubbed with sea salt, coarsely ground black pepper, and herbs de Provence.  Lamb is generally considered a light meat, but the pepper, lavender, and other herbs in the rub give it an incense-like finish, and barbecuing imparts a light char.  Therefore, Syrah and Zinfandel are good matches for an otherwise feminine cut of meat.  A light vegetarian pasta heavily spiced with garlic, roasted tomatoes and peppers, and perhaps caramelized onions would be better with a spicy Sangiovese than a crisp white wine.

To add to the confusion, you can taste a thousand Chardonnays and find flavors ranging from light, crisp, pear flavors to heavy butterscotch.  Red wines offer flavors starting at strawberry and working their way toward road tar. 

[chuckyoufarley]

Hey Guys.

I just posted the pics of our dinner last saturday in the dinner section.

Figured it would be more applicable there.

Heres the link...

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1059921

I aplogize for the clarity of some of the photos.

Freaking learning curve with new digi cam+many wines=Blurry photographer and Pictures.

Shaun

[SiseFromm]

As a satisfied participant of the dinner, I can only comment that my teeth were purple at the end of the evening. Big fat reds were sort of the wine of the evening, and I thought they worked perfectly with such obvious pairings as a shepard's pie with sticky veal reduction. We definitely rang in the new season with about as heavy a meal as I'll probably eat all year. That is, at least until my week in Yountville at the beginning of December.

The pork belly was out of sight and the French onion soup was the best I've had anywhere, period. I guess sweating onions for 8 hours pays off, a point to which I cheered as we raised our glasses.

Good times.

P.S., the gougeres were probably the highlight of the evening. I think I shoved about twenty of them into my gullet.

[Milagai]

Not sure where this link belongs but may be here:

Indian Thanksgiving feast with extensive discussion of wine

recommendations:

http://www.avalonwine.com/East-Indian-Thanksgiving-Feast.php

Milagai

[davebr]

Ive had some fabulous scrambled eggs with truffle oil and sauterns.

[davebr]

Once at Peristyle in New Orleans, the GM Brian, was pairing a wine with each course of food that the Chef was sending out of the kitchen. Then just before the entree, he opened a bottle of wine and announced that he had no idea what we were about to eat next. "It's fun to pair a wine with a course, but sometimes it's just as fun to open a good bottle of wine, serve some good food and let it all work itself out".