Show and Tell: Knives

[scubadoo97]

My every day knives

 

 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

6 hours ago, scubadoo97 said:

My every day knives

 

 

 

What are your non-everyday knives?

 

[scubadoo97]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:20 AM, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

What are your non-everyday knives?

 

A few more that don’t get used as often.  The second one from the right, a sujihiki,  I use most often to skin sides of steelhead before portioning 

[haresfur]

I got a nice petty for Christmas but haven't photographed it yet. So here is the Kiwi I bought myself for around $8.00 in with the every day knives (4th from left).

 

[btbyrd]

These are my Sukenari Wonder Twins.

 

[&roid]

18 hours ago, btbyrd said:

These are my Sukenari Wonder Twins.

 

 

That bottom one is absolutely beautiful...  the menacing utility of it.

 

Care to share some details, @btbyrd?

[btbyrd]

It looks evenly more menacingly utilitarian when it's in its saya.

 

 

 

Sukenari offer knives in a variety of steels (VG10, Ginsan, Aogami Super, White 1, ZDP189, R2, HAP40, and more I'm forgetting about). They come with either a "hairline" migaki finish and a mirror polished etched damascus finish. The damascus is stunning, and I think mine is the most beautiful object I've ever owned. But it costs a lot more and doesn't doesn't really contribute to performance. I will say that when I saw that polished blade with that custom amboyna handle, I fell in love immediately. The damascus one is a 270mm gyuto in ZDP-189 steel. That's a very highly alloyed steel that has a tremendous amount of both carbon and chromium in it. It was developed by Hitachi primarily for kitchen knives. It's capable of achieving a very high hardness, around 65-66 HRC in this case.

 

The bottom knife is a 240mm gyuto with a kiritsuke tip in HAP40 steel with a hairline finish. HAP40 is much less alloyed than ZDP is, but it is capable of even higher hardness ratings. Sukenari treat theirs to 67-68HRC which is quite high. For both ZDP and HAP40, you'll want to have good stones to sharpen them with. Shapton Glass do a great job, but vitrified diamond are the "sky's the limit" type of stone for these extremely hard steels.

 

The profile on both knives has a generous flat spot, with the only obvious difference in profile coming from the shape of the tip. That's down to preference of what you like the look of; both cut quite well at the tip, with a slight advantage going toward the thinner k-tip migaki. The fit and finish on both knives is superb, but the damascus ones have gorgeously rounded spines and choils, making them extremely comfortable to hold. The hairlines are rounded as well, but not to the same degree (but still much better than many, many companies out there). Sukenari's knives have excellent convex grinds that are extremely thin behind the edge. The cladding on the damascus knives is slightly thicker than the hairline knives, making them slightly thicker at the spine. But it's subtle and the performance on both is very similar (which is to say, exceptional). Here are a couple choil shots. ZDP first, then the HAP40:

 

  

 

The prices on Sukenari vary depending on the finish and core steel. There's a big upcharge on the damascus version, and steels like ZDP cost a lot more than more basic steels. I think the best value might be the R2 line, which is a high hardness stainless steel that's much less expensive than some of the alternatives. FYI: The edge lengths on Sukenaris are about 8mm shorter than their stated length. My 270 is 262mm, and the 240 is 232. This means that the 210 is more like a 202, which turned out to be too short for my preferences.

 

The 240mm HAP40 hairline is maybe my favorite all around knife. It's long, but not too long. It cuts like a dream and is very easy to control. It just feels like a part of you. And when you hold it, it screams "craftsmanship" in a way that few factory-made knives do. Both knives are fantastic for tackling a big head of cabbage or iceberg and finely shredding it into oblivion. Great for julienne, fine dice, brunoise. And it's great on animal protein as well. The generous flat spots on these make them great for push cutting, which is generally my preferred cutting technique. It also works well for rocking, which is a bonus.

 

With all that said, here's a video of a 210 ZDP damascus made by a Chef Knives to Go forum member. It pretty well captures the experience of using one, as well as the beauty of the mirror polished, shot blasted damascus finish.

 

 

I'm sure those were more details than you wanted to know, but in case I didn't say enough, feel free to ask more questions. 😁

 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by btbyrd (log)

[&roid]

9 hours ago, btbyrd said:

I'm sure those were more details than you wanted to know

That was absolutely perfect!

they look utterly amazing… and here I was thinking I had *enough knives! This feels like a rabbit hole I need to go down. 
 

That video is great - the bread and meat parts really show how sharp they must be. 

 

[btbyrd]

I have other knives that can get sharper. The Sukenari ZDP-189 wasn't quite up to the sharpness of the Takeda in aogami super. That initial sharpness fades quickly, and the Sukenaris will stay sharper much longer than most knives, including Takedas. But that initial edge might not be quite as freakshow sharp as the edge apex you can achieve on a lower alloyed steel. 

 

Here's the failure of the Sukenari. The music in this was auto-generated by my iPhone, so I don't necessarily condone it.

 

 

And here's the success of my Takeda. I made the music for this one from raw electrons, so any lousiness is attributable to me.

 

 

I think the HAP40 one is somewhere in between in terms of achievable edge and grind performance.

[JoNorvelleWalker]

58 minutes ago, btbyrd said:

I have other knives that can get sharper. The Sukenari ZDP-189 wasn't quite up to the sharpness of the Takeda in aogami super. That initial sharpness fades quickly, and the Sukenaris will stay sharper much longer than most knives, including Takedas. But that initial edge might not be quite as freakshow sharp as the edge apex you can achieve on a lower alloyed steel. 

 

Here's the failure of the Sukenari. The music in this was auto-generated by my iPhone, so I don't necessarily condone it.

 

 

And here's the success of my Takeda. I made the music for this one from raw electrons, so any lousiness is attributable to me.

 

 

I think the HAP40 one is somewhere in between in terms of achievable edge and grind performance.

 

Disturbingly impressive.

 

[paulraphael]

3 hours ago, JoNorvelleWalker said:

 

Disturbingly impressive.

 

Yup. But I think the videos speak much more to sharpening skill than to the esoteric difference between alloys. 

 

If you can sharpen this well, you'll get performance close to this out of almost any knife. If you can't, you're not going to make grapes split in two by glancing in their general direction. Even with the finest grained carbon steel and laserlike geometry. 

[JoNorvelleWalker]

16 minutes ago, paulraphael said:

Yup. But I think the videos speak much more to sharpening skill than to the esoteric difference between alloys. 

 

If you can sharpen this well, you'll get performance close to this out of almost any knife. If you can't, you're not going to make grapes split in two by glancing in their general direction. Even with the finest grained carbon steel and laserlike geometry. 

 

I'm just happy to have nice knives and all my fingers.

 

[Slim W]

Not disputing your assessment of the steels.  But would the surface (cladding) of the blades make a difference?  Damascus cladding can be a little "sticky"?  If the drag on the surface of the blade cladding on the grape is greater than the drag of the grape against the board its bound to slide?  Beautiful blades by way!! The Takeda is very impressive.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Slim W
spelling (log)

[btbyrd]

There are a lot of variables that determine cutting performance in these kind of insane tests. Technique is an obvious one. That wasn't the first take with either of those knives, and it took a few swipes with the Takeda to get the grapes to cut without pushing them around. Maybe if I'd taken more time with the ZDP I would have gotten there. But I ran out of grapes. The videos were shot with two different batches of grapes, so that's another variable.

 

Steel type is unlikely to play a role in this test, but ZDP is much more difficult to sharpen than aogami super is. The surface of the blades makes a difference, but how much of a difference and what kind are often debated. The mirror polish in particular is often credited with being sticky. People also often say that mirror polishing reduces drag. I don't know. In practice, there's not a noticeable difference between the mirror polished Sukenari and the hairline one. And the core steel on the Takeda was mirror polished because of the epic thinning, sharpening, and polishing progression that District Cutlery put on it. So who knows? The ZDP was also fresh off a sharpening by the same sharpener (but using a different progression). The Takeda was definitely sharper though.

 

People also like to say that damascus cladding is "stickier" compared to knives with monosteel cladding. Again, I've not noticed a difference in practice between damascus and non-damascus knives in terms of stickiness. There are some etching processes that can make the blade grabbier, and that's more likely to cause issues than the layered steel is. Layers per se aren't a problem. I have a mono steel carbon knife onto which I forced too hard of a patina, and the sides of that thing are grabbier than any other knife in my kitchen, layers or no layers.

 

 

[paulraphael]

I don't think sticking is going to be an issue with something as soft as a grape. This is mostly a test of the absolute keenness of the edge, which suggests that a straight razor would do impressively (if expertly sharpened). Stickiness becomes an issue with things like potatoes, that are more rigid (so there's some force pressing them against the blade) and that have a solid but wet surface.

 

I don't believe a mirrored finish is less prone to sticking. If anything it's worse, because the potato can make an airtight, suction-cup-like seal against it. Like if you were to make a clean cut of a potato and press it against a pane of glass. 

 

Some people find a textured surface, like damascus or kuroichi less stick prone. But people who really care about this look for knives with a geometry that discourages it. A fatter blade with a convex slope on the front side gently pushes the food away and breaks contact with it.

 

Personally, I go for knives with very thin blades that are very prone to sticking. I deal with the problem with cutting technique. If you cut potatoes and the like with the tip, and draw the blade through in with the right timing, by the time the two halves are severed, the blade is gone and cant be stuck to. This is just a little slower than using the whole blade and speed-chopping. Maybe if you routinely prep  whole 50lb bags of spuds you'll shop for a knife with more stick-resistant geometry. 

[paulraphael]

50 minutes ago, btbyrd said:

Steel type is unlikely to play a role in this test, but ZDP is much more difficult to sharpen than aogami super is. 

Absolutely. It's the sharpening process that leads to the strong opinions about steel.

 

I finally sharpened the cheap carbon steel Vietnamese knife I mentioned upthread, and have to admit it's getting me to rethink some things. I've always gone with low-alloy stainless steels for my main knife, on the theory that onions and garlic and all the acid stuff would quickly dull carbon steel. But this hasn't been my experience with this thing. And it's SO easy to sharpen. The ginsan stainless on my Tadatsuna is pretty easy, but this a whole different level. 

[Slim W]

Thanks for the great insights!! 

[Rickbern]

13 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Absolutely. It's the sharpening process that leads to the strong opinions about steel.

 

I finally sharpened the cheap carbon steel Vietnamese knife I mentioned upthread, and have to admit it's getting me to rethink some things. I've always gone with low-alloy stainless steels for my main knife, on the theory that onions and garlic and all the acid stuff would quickly dull carbon steel. But this hasn't been my experience with this thing. And it's SO easy to sharpen. The ginsan stainless on my Tadatsuna is pretty easy, but this a whole different level. 

It’s also the durability of the freshly sharpened edge that leads to opinions about different steels. I’m a home cook, I use simple carbon steels, I sharpen often, it’s a very simple process. 
 

if I worked in a restaurant I might use more complex, harder steels that were more difficult to sharpen but held their edge much longer

 

I think many home cooks make a mistake looking for a durable steel when they may be better served looking for the one that’s easiest to maintain 

[paulraphael]

10 hours ago, Rickbern said:

It’s also the durability of the freshly sharpened edge that leads to opinions about different steels.

That's true ... but you have to be pretty good at sharpening to know if your edge retention issues are the result of the steel vs. your sharpening technique or geometry. It gets complicated.

 

High-alloy tool steels and super alloys can have lousy edge retention if you sharpen them to too acute an angle. They have terrible edge stability and will microchip. AND they're challenging to sharpen, because these steels were specifically designed to resist abrasion.

 

And some steels are tricky to deburr. They'll seem sharp straight off the stones, but dull very quickly. It's not intuitive that it's a technique problem, made worse by a quirk of the steel.

 

Edited to add: lots of restaurant cooks like the simple carbon steels that you like. They just sharpen after every shift. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by paulraphael (log)

[haresfur]

12 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Edited to add: lots of restaurant cooks like the simple carbon steels that you like. They just sharpen after every shift. 

 

From my reading, there are a number of non-stainless carbon steel alloys that are extremely hard so it gets confusing. I actually lean towards tougher and easier to sharpen but that may well change if my sharpening skill comes along. I have a long way to go.

[haresfur]

Here is the Sakai Kikumori "Nihonko" SK-carbon steel Petty 150mm that I got for Christmas. The choil shot is from the website because I'm terrible at photographing knives.

 

My impressions so far is that it is great for its purpose. Came very sharp. I'm not used to a knife of this length and it drew first blood immediately. The pokey bit is farther away than I expected. I wash and dry my good knives right away but it is already developing a patina. Fine by me. I'll let it do its thing as long as it doesn't rust.

 

 

[paulraphael]

9 hours ago, haresfur said:

 

From my reading, there are a number of non-stainless carbon steel alloys that are extremely hard so it gets confusing. I actually lean towards tougher and easier to sharpen but that may well change if my sharpening skill comes along. I have a long way to go.

Yeah, it gets confusing! Hardness and abrasion resistance aren't quite the same thing. All else being equal, a hard steel will be more abrasion resistant (and harder to sharpen) than a soft one. But when steels have a lot of alloying elements that create a high volume of hard carbides, they become very abrasion resistant. And this added resistance comes regardless of the general rockwell hardness of the steel.

 

You can think of steel as being like concrete ... the base metal is like the cement, and the carbides are like the sand and gravel that the cement holds together. "Simple" carbon steels, like the Hitachi white and blue paper steels, are like smooth concrete with tiny pebbles in the mix. Even at high hardness, they're relatively easy to sharpen.

 

High hardness and high carbide content are both antithetical to toughness. If you want a blade that can be sharpened to a very acute angle and support a fine edge without chipping, you need a steel that isn't too hard and that doesn't have too high a carbon content. But it can't be too soft, either, or it will collapse! Knife steel is a balancing act. 

 

If you want to nerd out, this article on edge stability and this one on edge retention can take your mind off the world for a while. The latter has interesting charts on the toughness-to-hardness ratios of different steels.

[Rickbern]

6 hours ago, paulraphael said:

Yeah, it gets confusing! Hardness and abrasion resistance aren't quite the same thing. All else being equal, a hard steel will be more abrasion resistant (and harder to sharpen) than a soft one. But when steels have a lot of alloying elements that create a high volume of hard carbides, they become very abrasion resistant. And this added resistance comes regardless of the general rockwell hardness of the steel.

 

You can think of steel as being like concrete ... the base metal is like the cement, and the carbides are like the sand and gravel that the cement holds together. "Simple" carbon steels, like the Hitachi white and blue paper steels, are like smooth concrete with tiny pebbles in the mix. Even at high hardness, they're relatively easy to sharpen.

 

High hardness and high carbide content are both antithetical to toughness. If you want a blade that can be sharpened to a very acute angle and support a fine edge without chipping, you need a steel that isn't too hard and that doesn't have too high a carbon content. But it can't be too soft, either, or it will collapse! Knife steel is a balancing act. 

 

If you want to nerd out, this article on edge stability and this one on edge retention can take your mind off the world for a while. The latter has interesting charts on the toughness-to-hardness ratios of different steels.

I wouldn’t necessarily lump white and blue paper steels together in this discussion Paul.

 

White paper steels are the simple steels I was referring to, they’re both carbon, ie, non stainless steels. Blue paper steels are a bit harder to sharpen well but repay the effort by retaining sharpness for a longer time. There are different variations of each with the blue steel called aogomi ( blue in Japanese) super having the highest potential for long edge retention. Also the toughest to sharpen. 
 

Me, I use white steel 2, one of the easiest to sharpen 

[Elkyfr]

Most of the time I use an ikea knife, which I bought 5 years ago, small and handy. I use it to open packages and cut vegetables, meat... almost everything. It once cut through a whole cured ham without damaging the edge, impressive for 50p.