First Time Bread Baker

[jackal10]

Traditionally dough should feel like earlobe, but I guess you can apply other other parts of the anatomy...

You can handle we sticky doughs with a little oil on your hands and worktop. Much better than flour, as even a little flour pickup will change the nature of the dough. Use flour only for the shaping stage.

[aznsailorboi]

OK.  Very basic question.  How do you knead rather wet and tacky dough?  Also, I've been reading that you shouldn't add more flour.  Many recipes tell you to knead in as much flour as you can.  How do you know when it has enough flour in it if it's supposed to be wet and tacky?

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I start with my wet ingredients in a stainless steel bowl and add my flour gradually, stirring with a wooden spoon until it becomes the consistency of something less wet than mucilage and is dry enough to handle in a cohesive ball without too much mess. By estimate, I'm guessing that I've added about half my required amount of flour at this point. I then dump the dough ball out onto the floured countertop and continue to knead while gradually adding in flour. With this method, you should use up most, if not all, of the flour that's called for in your recipe.

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[Beanie]

Another tip for handling wet sticky dough is to wet your hands and use a wet rubber spatula or bench scraper to scrape up dough from the work surface. I think I read this technique in one of Peter Reinhart's books; works like a charm for me.

aznsailorboi -- don't wait until next Tuesday to bake bread. Life goes on ... even without baking stones.

[Anna N]

OMG...hmmm I'm getting inspired!!! i wanna make bread tonight!!!! but i dont have a baking stone. gotta purchase that on payday....tuesday is sooo far away!!!!!!!

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I bake bread two or three times each week. I do not have a baking stone and yet I get some very, very acceptable breads. If it's a freeform loaf (i.e., not in a loaf pan) then I put an upturned half-sheet pan on the oven rack before I heat the oven, and the bread is baked directly on its surface. I have a bottom-of-the-line electric oven. I no longer worry about kneading but now follow Dan Lepard's methods which call for absolutely minimum kneading. I am totally amazed by the results having spent most of my life struggling with "when have I kneaded enough?"

[peppyre]

Depending on the loaf that I am making, I split my wet and dry ingredients. Depending on the humidity, you may or may not need all of the flour and you may or may not need all of your liquid.

The more you play with the dough and start to learn the feel of it in different stages, the easier making bread will be.

As for steam, I used to always add ice and water to a pan at the bottom of my oven that had been preheating. Once you put your loaf in, quickly add cold stuff and very very quickly close your oven door to trap all the steam. It used to make perfect loaves everytime. (Of course, I haven't made bread in 5 years due to low cabinets. I got tired of hitting my forehead evertime I started kneading. [i'm really tall [)

[boulak]

I'm uncertain where to begin after reading the thread, so I'll start with flour. Flour is the constant in bread formulations. All other ingredients are based on the amount of flour. Water is a variable. It enables the baker to control the consistency/hydration of the dough as well as the temperature. The flour in a particular recipe (which is based on a formula) may require more or less water due to circumstances such as milling, protein content (proteins absorb twice their weight in liquids; starches absorb half their weight), origin of the wheat, etc. Even the age of the flour may have an impact. The salt and yeast are formulated to be in balance with the flour content as well. When a baker adds more or less flour, the formula is compromised and the results will be less predictable and certainly inconsistent. It is for this reason that a scale (preferably with metric capbility) is essential. It is accurate and allows for the use of baker's percentage.

Other random comments:

A stone is critical, but not necessary for pan breads. It's thermal mass helps maintain oven temperature and assists with a more dramatic oven spring.

Steam is only beneficial within the moments immediately prior to placing bread in the oven and immediately after depositing it on the stone. Excess steam penalizes the product as much as the proper amount benefits it. Steam condenses on the surface of the loaf keeping it supple, ensuring full oven spring which will result in a lighter loaf with a more dynamic crumb. It enables the starches to coagulate on the surface resulting in a shiny crust and the crust will be thinner as its formation is delayed.

Scarification, scoring, slashing, whichever term you prefer also aids in full, predictable expansion as well as preventing wild breaks -- not to mention that it is beautiful when done properly.

Typically, the wetter the dough, less kneading is required. The percentage of yeast is usually lower in this type of product allowing for a longer ferrmtation punctuated by one or more stretch and folds which will further strengthen the dough and expel excess gas. A wetter dough is underdeveloped at the completion of mixing by design. All further manipulations of the dough (fermentation, dividing, preshaping, and shaping) will contribute to dough strength and tenacity. If the dough is mixed to full development in the mixing stage, it will be over developed before it is baked.

Do not use active dry yeast if you are baking with commercial yeast. Invest is an instant active yeast such as the one made by Lesaffre (red label for bread; gold for sweeter doughs). It is a consistent product with consistent results.

There are many ways to make bread, and bread that is not world class can and should be enjoyed. (Not to mention that most of the pleasure is in the process). A lot of "tricks" make bread making seem easier, but the farther one strays from fundamentals, the less likely one is to grow as a baker. That said, it is not every bread maker's dream to grow, but in one's search for answers, seek out the science and not the mythology/lore that is so prevelant. What works for one baker may or may not work for another due to all of the intangibles, but the science has been proven.

There is just so much going on in this thread that I really did not know where to begin or what to discuss; please forgive the ramble.

Edited for typos.

Edited January 26, 2006 by boulak (log)

[McDuff]

There is just so much going on in this thread that I really did not know where to begin or what to discuss; please forgive the ramble.

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Amen to that. I wouldn't even know where to start. Throw out the measuring cups, buy a scale, google "baker's percentages", buy a book with formulas...those would be a start.

[Toliver]

You can also pick up some valuable tips in these previous eGullet baking-related discussions:

"Baking With Julia, Recipes"

"Baking with The Bread Baker's Apprentice book, my first attempt, long way to go..."

eGullet member SethG did a lot of bread baking in this discussion:

"Home for a couple months, How should I get my cooking fix?"

And SethG also posted this:

" 'Turning' the dough, Useful for home bakers?"

And jackal10 has done four or five foodblogs (you can find them in the General Cooking forum) which have a lot of bread baking in them and did this demo, as well:

"Demo: Baguette a l'ancienne, Experimental sourdough baguette"

I am sure there are many other eGullet bread baking discussions with helpful tips which, hopefully, others will post. Good luck with your baking and make sure you post your results.

[aznsailorboi]

OK day off today, and I woke up early to buy the supplies......

got a baking stone

i got KA unbleached bread flour.

Pastry flour, just in case i needed it somewhere *shrugs*

got a food scale...with oz and grams unit of measure

vital wheat gluten

OK i need a recipe to try.....I'll be here on egullet waiting for responses... please guide me through. and i have my digital camera on hand so i can take pics and post it as i go. any takers please feel free to jump on the thread

[fatmat]

OK day off today, and I woke up early to buy the supplies......

got a baking stone

i got KA unbleached bread flour.

Pastry flour, just in case i needed it somewhere *shrugs*

got a food scale...with oz and grams unit of measure

vital wheat gluten

OK i need a recipe to try.....I'll be here on egullet waiting for responses... please guide me through. and i have my digital camera on hand so i can take pics and post it as i go. any takers please feel free to jump on the thread

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Here to help you.

The best advice I can give is to get The Bread Bakers Apprentice by Peter Reinhart. If you read the intro which provides explanations on why different techniques work, then follow a recipe. I promise that you will produce great bread... to use a Brit expression, it will be 'better than shop'. I imported the book from the US, and have not regretted at all. it is a beautiful book, a pleasure to own and read.

[jackal10]

Check out the new Bread Proving Demo

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST...=0#entry1116192

[aznsailorboi]

OK day off today, and I woke up early to buy the supplies......

got a baking stone

i got KA unbleached bread flour.

Pastry flour, just in case i needed it somewhere *shrugs*

got a food scale...with oz and grams unit of measure

vital wheat gluten

OK i need a recipe to try.....I'll be here on egullet waiting for responses... please guide me through. and i have my digital camera on hand so i can take pics and post it as i go. any takers please feel free to jump on the thread

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Here to help you.

The best advice I can give is to get The Bread Bakers Apprentice by Peter Reinhart. If you read the intro which provides explanations on why different techniques work, then follow a recipe. I promise that you will produce great bread... to use a Brit expression, it will be 'better than shop'. I imported the book from the US, and have not regretted at all. it is a beautiful book, a pleasure to own and read.

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wow sounds like your making me buy an "addiction to be"....I will stop by barnes and nobles or borders later, as i'll be passing by the two bookstores later. thanks for your suggestion fatmat.

[lcdm]

Here to help you.

The best advice I can give is to get The Bread Bakers Apprentice by Peter Reinhart. If you read the intro which provides explanations on why different techniques work, then follow a recipe. I promise that you will produce great bread... to use a Brit expression, it will be 'better than shop'. I imported the book from the US, and have not regretted at all. it is a beautiful book, a pleasure to own and read.

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I agree, get the BBA; I made the Pain a l'Ancienne over the weekend and it was great. My husband and kids said it tasted like it came from the Italian Bakery.

I still have to work on it a bit, but it was my best as of yet.

[aznsailorboi]

ok guys i'm a little late, but i'm back. and i got the book!!!!! it was the last one at the barnes and nobles place, i'm so lucky....so baking is so meant to be. i doubt i'd be able to bake tonight, but im shootin for sometime next week coz i have to work this weekend. in the mean time i'll start browsin through and create a storyboard in my head for my set up.

[lcdm]

ok guys i'm a little late, but i'm back. and i got the book!!!!! it was the last one at the barnes and nobles place, i'm so lucky....so baking is so meant to be. i doubt i'd be able to bake tonight, but im shootin for sometime next week coz i have to work this weekend. in the mean time i'll start browsin through and create a storyboard in my head for my set up.

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Some of his breads use pre-ferments or some need an overnight stay in the frig. I usually do this step Friday night after I come home from work and complete on Saturday or Sunday when I have more time.

Good luck and have fun.

[aznsailorboi]

Hi guys, I read the book this weekend, BBA by Peter Reinhart. Now I feel so informed about bread all of a sudden. I realized what I was doing wrong before and I'm bound to make corrections as soon as I get my last "must haves" on his list which is an instant read thermometer.

About the yeast, he mentioned all three types are acceptable, and the only difference is the amount to be adjusted depending on which one will be used. wild yeast is 100%, active dry yeast will be 40-50%, and instant yeast 33% (this in proportion to the total amount of Wild yeast in the ingredients ie. if the recipe calls for 3grams of wild yeast, in substitution it will be 1.2grams to 1.5grams of active dry yeast and .99grms of instant yeast) But thinking about it....I think I will still be encounerting a little problem specially when using active dry yeast, coz wild yeast and instant yeast can be directly incorporated with the dry ingredients without having to proof it. So should the amount of liquid to proof the active dry yeast come from the total amt of liquid to be used for hydrating the dry ingredients?

[srhcb]

So should the amount of liquid to proof the active dry yeast come from the total amt of liquid to be used for hydrating the dry ingredients?

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yes

SB

[doronin]

Well, now after you've read Peter Reinhart's BBA, I'd strongly recommend to get familiar with Dan Lepard's approach, here on eGullet - it may save you a lot of time.

[aznsailorboi]

Well, now after you've read Peter Reinhart's BBA, I'd strongly recommend to get familiar with Dan Lepard's approach, here on eGullet - it may save you a lot of time.

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its in one of these threads?

[Beanie]

Well, now after you've read Peter Reinhart's BBA, I'd strongly recommend to get familiar with Dan Lepard's approach, here on eGullet - it may save you a lot of time.

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its in one of these threads?

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If you check this thread, you'll find Lepard's approach. I've tried his formula and method several times with slight variations and have learned alot. There's a picture of my bread at the end of the thread. Over the weekend, I baked it again, this time substituting 30% whole wheat flour and adding 1/4 c. flax seed meal. I like it even more than the all white.

[Bridie]

Can I ask a question since you are all on the topic of novice bread bakers? I think my recipe may be wrong, but am not experienced enought to be sure. It only calls for one rise (it is a yeasted bread, but has no egg - I have been looking at other bread recipes and most of them seem to have an egg, so I don't know if that makes a difference). The recipe says to knead the dough, divide it into rolls, cover and let rise for 45 minutes, and then bake. Should I trust it?

Thanks! (I hope I'm not breaching forum etiquette by jumping in with my own question)

[Tracy K.]

Since you've (and quite a few others...) have solicited advice, I'll add my two crumbs worth.

Get yourself a copy of The Tassajara Bread Book by Edward Espe Brown. It's a cheap paperback that was originally published in 1970--wow, groovy!! With simple line drawings and clear, concise instructions, you'll learn that the way to make bread is to get your hands on it. I started baking bread in high school with this book--it was the first whole wheat bread I'd really ever eaten (although the book contains many other recipes), and once a week four loaves were gone...and I mean not a crumb left in the house.

I also like Bernard Clayton, No Need to Knead by Suzanne Dunaway, and yes, with a nearly-three-year-old-son I've invested in a "Zo" (i.e., Zojirushi) bread machine to do the messy and time-consuming parts for me--but I still rely on the knowledge of dough learned at the very beginning at the (probably smelly) feet of Brown.

[KyleW]

Baking bread is both vexing and addictive. It requires a lot of patience. When I first started I received some wise counsel; Go Deep before you go wide. Find one basic bread recipe and bake it over and over again. You wil learn about the basic interactions of water, flour, salt and yeast. Your fingers will get very smart. They will be able to tell you when a dough is ready. Once you have mastered the basic recipe you will be better suited to experiment with the myriad breads that tempt us all.

That said here are a couple of things that may be helpful.

If you are kneading by hand, rather than in a stand mixer or bread machine, stick with All Purpose flour. The protein level in bread flour is too high to properly develop the gluten you need by hand.

A properly kneaded basic dough should feel tacky not sticky, to quote Peter Reinhart. I think of tacky as the back of a Post-It note. The dough shouldn't stick to your hands but it should feel like it wants to.

When in doubt, add more water. When I started I was terrified by "sticky" dough. I habitually added more flour to make the dough easy to handle. This lead to lots and lots of doorstops. The nice open crumb that good bread has comes from water.

Most importantly, have fun. Don't frak out when your first few loaves don't quite work out. They probably won't. But they'll probably taste good.

Here is the recipe I started with.

White Loaves From Baking with Julia

Contributing Baker Craig Kominiak

Makes two 1 ¾ -pound loaves.

These mountainous loaves bake to a generous four and a half inches high, providing a large-enough slice for the most Dagwoodian sandwich. This is a basic, have-it-on-hand-at-all-times white bread with a difference-it's got full, rounded flavor and a substantial texture; not your average sandwich loaf. And it makes great toast-the little bit of butter in the dough browns nicely under heat. Since the dough belongs to the direct-rise family, meaning there are no starters, sponges, or unusually long rest periods, you can mix a batch after breakfast and eat still-warm-from-the-oven bread for lunch.

2 ½ cups warm water (105°F to 115°F)

1 tablespoon active dry yeast

1 tablespoon sugar

7 cups (approximately) bread flour or unbleached all-purpose flour

1 tablespoon salt

½ stick (2 ounces) unsalted butter, at room temperature

Mixing and Kneading

Pour 1/2 cup of the water into the bowl of a heavy-duty mixer, sprinkle in the yeast and sugar, and whisk to blend. Allow the mixture to rest until the yeast is creamy, about 5 minutes.

Working in the mixer with the dough hook in place, add the remaining 2 cups water and about 31/2 cups flour to the yeast. Turn the mixer on and off a few times just to get the dough going without having the flour fly all over the counter and then, mixing on low speed, add 3 ½ cups more flour. Increase the mixer speed to medium and beat, stopping to scrape down the bowl and hook as needed, until the dough comes together. (If the dough does not come together, add a bit more flour, a tablespoon at a time.) Add the salt and continue to beat and knead at medium speed for about 10 minutes, until the dough is smooth and elastic. If you prefer, you can mix the dough in the machine for half that time and knead it by hand on a lightly floured surface for 8 to 10 minutes.

When the dough is thoroughly mixed (return it to the mixer if necessary), add the butter, a tablespoon at a time, and beat until incorporated. Don't be disconcerted if your beautiful dough comes apart with the addition of butter-beating will bring it back together.

First Rise

Turn the dough out onto a lightly floured work surface and shape it into a ball. Place it in a large buttered or oiled bowl (one that can hold double the amount of dough). Turn the dough around to cover its entire surface with butter or oil, cover the bowl tightly with plastic wrap, and let the dough rest at room temperature until it doubles in bulk, about 45 minutes to 1 hour.

Shaping the Dough

Butter two 81/2- by 41/2-inch loaf pans and set them aside.

Deflate the dough and turn it out onto a lightly floured work surface. Divide the dough in half and work with one piece at a time.

Using the palms of your hands and fingertips, or a rolling pin, pat the dough into a large rectangle about 9 inches wide and 12 inches long, with a short side facing you. Starting at the top, fold the dough about two thirds of the way down the rectangle and then fold it again, so that the top edge meets the bottom edge. Seal the seam by pinching it. Turn the roll so that the seam is in the center of the roll, facing up, and turn the ends of the roll in just enough so that it will fit in a buttered loaf pan. Pinch the seams to seal, turn the loaf over so that the seams are on the bottom, and plump the loaf with your palms to get an even shape. Drop the loaf into the pan, seam side down, and repeat with the other piece of dough.

Second Rise Cover the loaves with oiled plastic wrap, and allow them to rise in a warm place (about 80°F) until they double in size again, growing over the tops of the pans, about 45 minutes.

While the loaves rise, center a rack in the oven and preheat the oven to 375°F.

Baking the Bread

When the loaves are fully risen (poke your finger into the dough; the impression should remain), bake them for 35 to 45 minutes, or until they are honey-brown and an instant-read thermometer plunged into the center of the bread (turn a loaf out and plunge the thermometer through the bottom of the bread) measures 200°F. (If you like, 10 minutes or so before you think the loaves should come out, you can turn the loaves out of their pans and let them bake on the oven rack so they brown on the sides.) Remove the loaves from their pans as soon as they come from the oven and cool the breads on racks. These should not be cut until they are almost completely cool; just-warm is just right.

Storing Once completely cool, the breads can be kept in a brown paper bag for a day or two. Once a loaf is sliced, turn it cut side down on the counter or a cutting board and cover with a kitchen towel. For longer storage, wrap the breads airtight and freeze for up to a month. Thaw, still wrapped, at room temperature.

Edited February 8, 2006 by KyleW (log)

[aznsailorboi]

Thanks for the recipe Kyle, I'm definitely gonna try it. Although after reading BBA book, I was looking at your recipe and they were in cups, teaspoons, Tablespoons, etc. got me all thinking deeply into it....about the weight and percentages of each lol.....see that book is evil...in a good way. but for your particular recipe I will just go by your measurements, since you've already mastered this bread and I dont have a doubt that this bread will be a success.

[aznsailorboi]

oh and another thing. any suggestions on bakeware? like what should I look for when I'm purchasing them, color(diff shades of silver), material, reflective property, etc.