US/FR Gastronomic Cultural Differences

[SuzySushi]

Another cultural difference that a French friend told us about when we were dining in her home, when cutting a piece of cheese from a wedge, it is "correct" to slice it in a way that retains the shape of the wedge, instead of cutting off the tip as Americans would do.

[Nicolai]

Rudeness exists eveywhere in the world. However there is a fine line between rudeness and acceptability. What is perceived rude by one person might not be what the intent of the other person is or was.

You might think it is rude to have a French person mumbling to himself after getting some flack by a customer or you might think it is rude that an Italian gesticulates while talking or an American striking a conversation with a total stranger.

It is a matter of perception and for example the usual water request by American people in France is sometimes scoffed at in certain establishments.

I recall my mother asking for water as I was too young for wine and the MaitreD' came to inquire whether I was feeling bad??!?!! Water to the kid....unfathomable.

It is the faux pas when you try to win one over and pretend what you are not that lands people in trouble (most of the time). If you know your subject matter and a very good command of your French e.g. to recite entire poems in French and discuss the latest misshap a L'Academie Francaise then indulge in the Michelin restaurant to your pleasure. However if you don't know the colour of your Cheval Blanc, then give it a rest and be yourself.

[Fat Guy]

If someone pulls out in front of you in a dangerous manner, and  you flip him off, nine times out of ten, the driver will get extremely angry, gesticulate, and not understand how you can judge his driving.

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I really don't think my driving is relevant here.

[fresh_a]

I've never seen you drive!

[BCinBC]

Another cultural difference that a French friend told us about when we were dining in her home, when cutting a piece of cheese from a wedge, it is "correct" to slice it in a way that retains the shape of the wedge, instead of cutting off the tip as Americans would do.

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Perhaps this is not out-and-out "rudeness" per se, but I can see that retaining the wedge shape would be the proper thing to do. I'm assuming that you are talking about the center, not a "tip" on the outside - so if you cut off just the tip on the inside of the wheel, you are avoiding rind and leaving it for others.

[menton1]

It is a matter of perception and for example the usual water request by American people in France is sometimes scoffed at in certain establishments

This was true many years ago, but today I have found that just about all restaurants in France readily bring tap water if asked. The standard request should be for un carafe d'eau. As a matter of fact, it is now custom for most restaurants to distinguish themselves by serving tap water in a beautiful bottle and leaving it on the table. The thing you can forget about, though, is ice... not going to happen.

[Fat Guy]

I've never seen you drive!

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Stop criticizing my driving!

In terms of the water customs, I agree that the request for tap water is not a problem in nice restaurants in France. Everyplace I've been that had or should have had a Michelin star has graciously provided a carafe of water. (The bistro/brasserie places can get a little huffy about water, but I think they're resigned to it in most restaurants that derive substantial income from the tourist trade). I actually wish American restaurants would leave the carafe on the table, but for some reason nice American restaurants insist on refilling your water a glass at a time from a central supply. What I don't understand is how everybody in France can survive a multi-hour-long meal of rich, salty food without drinking any water. Do French people secretly tank up before they show up at restaurants? And if they do, how do they keep from having to use the bathroom during the meal? It's beyond my ability to comprehend.

[menton1]

In terms of the water customs, I agree that the request for tap water is not a problem in nice restaurants in France. Everyplace I've been that had or should have had a Michelin star has graciously provided a carafe of water. (The bistro/brasserie places can get a little huffy about water, but I think they're resigned to it in most restaurants that derive substantial income from the tourist trade). I actually wish American restaurants would leave the carafe on the table, but for some reason nice American restaurants insist on refilling your water a glass at a time from a central supply. What I don't understand is how everybody in France can survive a multi-hour-long meal of rich, salty food without drinking any water. Do French people secretly tank up before they show up at restaurants? And if they do, how do they keep from having to use the bathroom during the meal? It's beyond my ability to comprehend.

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I think you forgot about the wine that they are drinking...

Actually, I've seen carafes d'eau on the locals' tables quite often in recent years. Customs have changed. Even the bistros readily bring tap water to the table these days.

Edited December 8, 2005 by menton1 (log)

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Another cultural difference that a French friend told us about when we were dining in her home, when cutting a piece of cheese from a wedge, it is "correct" to slice it in a way that retains the shape of the wedge, instead of cutting off the tip as Americans would do.

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Perhaps this is not out-and-out "rudeness" per se, but I can see that retaining the wedge shape would be the proper thing to do. I'm assuming that you are talking about the center, not a "tip" on the outside - so if you cut off just the tip on the inside of the wheel, you are avoiding rind and leaving it for others.

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I believe that the logic is that when one cuts a slice of cheese as we a pie, i.e., taking a wedge from crust to center, all diners are able to share all parts of the cheese, from crust though all of the gradations of the cheese's pate. When one person cuts off the center point, he takes all of that texture for himself. One should note that various cheeses have traditional cutting rules, not all adhere to the wedge rule.

It's not easy...

[Pan]

I would have thought that cutting a round cheese like a pie was standard everywhere.

[robert brown]

Here's a reprise of a matter I brought up in the pre-pubescent days of eGullet:

Nine times out of ten a waiter in a restaurant in France will speak steadfastly to you in English even if your French is better than their high school English. I have yet to figure out why, although there is in all likelihood more than one reason. These are some of the possibilities:

1. They are trying to make communication easier for you.

2. They don't want to listen to your soiling their mellifluous language with your flat, constrained American accent.

3. It's a form of intimidation.

4. It's a power play.

5. They want the opportunity at your expense to improve their English.

6. They really believe their English is better than your French. (The worst is that it is, but it doesn't seem that way to you).

[SuzySushi]

I would have thought that cutting a round cheese like a pie was standard everywhere.

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Except a Stilton, which is traditionally scooped from its rind!

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I would have thought that cutting a round cheese like a pie was standard everywhere.

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It starts out that way. But you would be surprised at the number of people who, when presented with a quarter of a round cheese, will cut off the point. I once had a hostess actually gasp when she saw a visiter do this, although she quickly tried to cover her reaction.

[jackal10]

I was always told the superstition that it was bad luck to "cut the nose off" a wedge of cheese

[Boris_A]

Is the sometime miscommunication restricted to American tourists? 

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Not at all. But I wouldn't call it miscommunication. They are just different, you know.

And of course, the Brits also think they are of a better breed. In the rest of Europe, there are not much troubles of this kind ... But that's a very subjective opinion, of course.

[Carlsbad]

Interesting thread. The French drivers described sound a lot like the California drivers I encounter all the time.

One of our friends (who stays in Paris for 2 months each year) insists on drinking tap water. At Taillevent, he said he wanted it instead of the Badoit the rest of us were drinking. They brought a carafe and put it in a wine cooler with ice. His glass was filled at least as often as ours. After a week or so of ordering tap water with us, he started drinking the Badoit. I think he liked it a lot more than he let on.

I think that many of the French servers genuinely like to speak English to improve it, especially the younger people.

[Pan]

Here's a reprise of a matter I brought up in the pre-pubescent days of eGullet:

Nine times out of ten a waiter in a restaurant in France will speak steadfastly to you in English even if your French is better than their high school English.[...]

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Is that mainly in Paris and otherwise mainly in 2/3-star restaurants? I haven't found this to be true, myself. I've had lots of experience speaking French and being replied to in French at restaurants in the 0/1-star range.

[John Talbott]

What I don't understand is how everybody in France can survive a multi-hour-long meal of rich, salty food without drinking any water. Do French people secretly tank up before they show up at restaurants? And if they do, how do they keep from having to use the bathroom during the meal? It's beyond my ability to comprehend.

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Ah Steve, you and your friends are still young. My age-friends, especially if driving home to say Versailles, do make use of the toilet.

Nine times out of ten a waiter in a restaurant in France will speak steadfastly to you in English even if your French is better than their high school English.[...]

Not my experience, if I persist in French 9/10th's will accomodate; it is truly the eager-beaver who does want to practice who continues.

Except a Stilton, which is traditionally scooped from its rind!

as well as (Vacherin) Mont d'Or, Parmesan (when used as a cooking vessel) and a few other regional specialties.

One of our friends (who stays in Paris for 2 months each year) insists on drinking tap water. At Taillevent, he said he wanted it instead of the Badoit the rest of us were drinking. They brought a carafe and put it in a wine cooler with ice. His glass was filled at least as often as ours. After a week or so of ordering tap water with us, he started drinking the Badoit.

What has not been raised yet is the unwritten rule/custom to drink bottled water in gastro places, esp those with macarons vs Chateau Delanoye in neighborhood bistrots. Yesterday I ate at the two-week old Cou de la Giraffe aka Coutanceau #6; it has its eye on a star and should get it in 2007; super decor, nice flowers, all suits and ties (it's in the 8th after all), 80% bottled/20% tap water but in great designer carafes; my prediction is that when it hits the star level, it'll be 100% bottled.

Actually, I've seen carafes d'eau on the locals' tables quite often in recent years. Customs have changed. Even the bistros readily bring tap water to the table these days.

On another thread a native noted that serving water is required by law.

I would have thought that cutting a round cheese like a pie was standard everywhere.

One would think so, but maybe if you've learned French in school/college rather than through "French in Action," you don't get that lesson.

[Nicolai]

One would think so, but maybe if you've learned French in school/college rather than through "French in Action," you don't get that lesson.

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That is so true. You can learn the language, marry the bride and get the sommelier as Father-in-Law but you will always have gaps missing in your lessons.

Whether it is how to "sabrer le Champagne" or the ceremonial of the "Fève des Rois" or the rules governing the eating of Asparagus or simply how to cut cheese, is a different world on it's own.

Do you really want to go there? Or rather be yourself and learn along the way?

This is how people differentiate each other all over the world with the "them" and "us".

Wait until you are confronted with the Japanese politesse of serving "Sake" and then you will know that you are not part of the club.

[robert brown]

Vacherin you serve also with a spoon.

There are all kinds of situations in France in which people serving me answer me in English when I begin by speaking in France. The service people at airport snackbars is but one example. It's possible that the moment it takes to untie my tongue at times or that I speak with a Western Massachusetts drawl may have something to do with it. But I find the practice prevalent on the Cote d'Azur. My favorite, though, and it seems to be a working class practice, is listening to people speak this kind of pidgin French to you in which they leave out words so as to speak to you in partial sentences. Translated it comes out as something like: "Dig here. Cover with skirt bottom of wall.. Then painting. Impeccable."

[ulterior epicure]

5. They want the opportunity at your expense to improve their English.

Now that's novel... I never really considered it a possibility... but you may just be right on this one!

6. They really believe their English is better than your French. (The worst is that it is, but it doesn't seem that way to you).

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I also think this is a very viable explanation.

One interesting experience I had lately was at L'Arnsbourg in the nether regions of Alsace-Lorraine. Though it is remote, I'm almost sure that (some of) the staff spoke English. They knew that I did too... very well. Although I fancy myself proficient in French, I was expecting the staff to give me the typical "tourist" type of treatment that we, and robert, have noted (ie. refusing to converse with English-speaking diners in French). Yet, no one spoke English to me the whole time - not even when I would ask for an explanation in English due to lack of comprehension in French. In fact, I started to wonder at times whether the staff did in fact speak English... thankfully, my French was good enough for me to understand 90% of what was served, and when I asked for them in written form, my Fracais-Anglais dictionary was able to reveal the rest...

Another interesting note - all of the diners in the room were operating in German. Given the proximity to the German border, the entire staff easily switched between the two (Fr. and Ger.).

U.E.

[ulterior epicure]

In terms of the water customs, I agree that the request for tap water is not a problem in nice restaurants in France. Everyplace I've been that had or should have had a Michelin star has graciously provided a carafe of water. (The bistro/brasserie places can get a little huffy about water, but I think they're resigned to it in most restaurants that derive substantial income from the tourist trade).

You think this "gracious" provision holds true for non-alcoholic drinking guests? I don't drink, and I have a sneaking suspicion that it might be the root of some "off-service" in French restaurants when a simple carafe d'eau is requested...

Re: minimal water-intake... I to marvel at the (low) levels of water that the French seem to get by on. I'm sure that I would choke on my food for lack of hydration if I were limited to a demi of Perrier through a salty, fatty multi-course meal - even if I were drinking wine!

U.E.

[menton1]

Vacherin you serve also with a spoon.

There are all kinds of situations in France in which people serving me answer me in English when I begin by speaking in France. The service people at airport snackbars is but one example. It's possible that the moment it takes to untie my tongue at times or that I speak with a Western Massachusetts drawl may have something to do with it. But I find the practice prevalent on the Cote d'Azur. My favorite, though, and it seems to be a working class practice, is listening to people speak this kind of pidgin French to you in which they leave out words so as to speak to you in partial sentences. Translated it comes out as something like: "Dig here. Cover with skirt bottom of wall.. Then painting. Impeccable."

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This has not been my experience, Robert; It has happened to me, that they answer back in English, but only about 10% of the time. Most of the time they continue the conversation in French, and, as I stumble a bit, they smile and ask where I'm from. They are taken aback when they learn that I'm American. I suppose that it is a bit unusual to have an American speak a good deal of French. But they do, for the most part, seem quite pleased that an American has bothered to try to learn their language.

Perhaps when they do answer in English it is for the most part your selection (6), to facilitate the communication. Yes, most of them can speak English better than we can speak French. They can practice their English almost daily; opportunities to speak French in the USA mainly consist of watching "le Journal" daily for 30 minutes at 7PM!!

Another cultural difference with the French is the much lesser importance that they place on Christmas than Americans. Decorations are small, if at all. And shopping is very very blasé. Perhaps they have the better idea!!

[bleudauvergne]

In terms of the water customs, I agree that the request for tap water is not a problem in nice restaurants in France. Everyplace I've been that had or should have had a Michelin star has graciously provided a carafe of water. (The bistro/brasserie places can get a little huffy about water, but I think they're resigned to it in most restaurants that derive substantial income from the tourist trade). I actually wish American restaurants would leave the carafe on the table, but for some reason nice American restaurants insist on refilling your water a glass at a time from a central supply. What I don't understand is how everybody in France can survive a multi-hour-long meal of rich, salty food without drinking any water. Do French people secretly tank up before they show up at restaurants? And if they do, how do they keep from having to use the bathroom during the meal? It's beyond my ability to comprehend.

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Of course you can get water! They just won't slap it down in front of you the minute you arrive! The best thing to do is carry a secret flask of water in your breast pocket for emergencies.

Speaking of breaking all the rules. My husband and I went out for dinner the other night to a pretty nice place. A young couple came in, did NOT say hello to the entire room, and immediately asked for water of which they were graciously served a pretty carafe. Then they asked for more! Can you believe that? Then, we were approached twice by the owner during the meal to ask if everything met our expectations! I'm telling you I was surrounded by a bunch of cretins that night!

Midway through the meal there I was with a large piece of frisee lettuce staring me in the face and absolutely no way to fold it, it was just too fresh! I managed finally to open my mouth wide enough to wedge some branches on one half in and then shoved the rest in by force. The whole room came to a stop in admiration of my excellent manners. The waiter then appeared with a warm cloth to wipe the vinaigrette from from the left side of my face, a practice they were apparently accustomed to.

Robert, as for your accent, I always thought your voice sounded like Thurston Howell III. I guess we probably should speak in French if you do ever take me up on my invitation to dinner at my house.

[bleudauvergne]

Translated it comes out as something like: "Dig here. Cover with skirt bottom of wall.. Then painting. Impeccable."

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Oh I thought that was just what people say while looking at the sunset after having had too much Pastis.