NYC French Bistrots

[jgould]

as alluded to above, it seems to definitely make a difference as to who owns a restaurant, & more importantly, if THAT person is there & exercises hands-on management. but, u say: "what about jean georges or daniel, etc..." i answer 2 ways: 1) le bernandin, 2) revisit the list - most of these are less ambitious than the "haute cuisine" places i think u are referring to(?)

Well:

1. I've never been to Le Bernardin, so perhaps an explanation should be forthcoming.

2. Mmmm, I'm not sure GT and Home Restaurant qualify as temples of "haute cuisine" in the same way that ADNY and Per Se do.

3. I believe I said

Does it really matter who owns the restaurant as long as the food is good and the service runs smoothly?

You discount Jarnac as not even worth going to because it is "english-owned" and "another french-themed copy". Gee, Le Cirque 2000 is owned by an Italian family. Must not be worth going to, cuz those Italians don't know a thing about haute cuisine....right?

Soba

ok, if u want a debate, let's go, & don't go getting all offended when challenged:

1) how can u judge or comment when u have never been to one of the finest french/seafood restaurants in the City? it is one of the very few that many use as a standard. what explanation would u like?????

2) what is your point?????

3) yes it does - reread my comments, then u may understand

4) thats what i said, what statement are u referring to??? its obvious u either did not read the below comment, or misinterpreted, please reread:

"le jardin bistro: may be good, but travelling down to cleveland place, just to save $'s, i don't think so. if in the area, balthazar a much better choice, which wasn't on the list because it is just too crowded, & therefore very difficult to just walk-in like many of the others."

where was le cirque 2000 mentioned? btw, isn't le cirque somewhat family-run?? doesn't le cirque qualify as an excellent example of my comments re: owner operated, hands-on, etc, etc... did u really read the comments as they referred to the topic??????????

[SobaAddict70]

Why is this mystifying?

I LIKE French bistros. I even list a favorite of mine. I like pretty much all types of cuisine, but I like some cuisines more than others.

What did you not understand?

I think the rest of my posts are fairly clear. eGullet has no rules that restrict posters to the germaneness of topical commentary unless said commentary is off-topic, uncivil or inappropriate in some other way.

YOU obviously don't read closely.

You said

le jardin bistro: may be good, but travelling down to cleveland place, just to save $'s, i don't think so.

You also say:

if in the area, balthazar a much better choice,

Furthermore, you also say:

le jardin bistro - not worth the trip, unless in the area

Smells like you've discounted it to me.

Soba

[jgould]

Why is this mystifying?

I LIKE French bistros. I even list a favorite of mine. I like pretty much all types of cuisine, but I like some cuisines more than others.

What did you not understand?

I think the rest of my posts are fairly clear. eGullet has no rules that restrict posters to the germaneness of topical commentary unless said commentary is off-topic, uncivil or inappropriate in some other way.

YOU obviously don't read closely.

You said

le jardin bistro: may be good, but travelling down to cleveland place, just to save $'s, i don't think so.

You also say:

if in the area, balthazar a much better choice,

Furthermore, you also say:

le jardin bistro - not worth the trip, unless in the area

Smells like you've discounted it to me.

Soba

its not worth the arguement, i don't understand ANY of your comments - its obvious u have not been to a number of these restaurants u're commenting on.

zeroing in on a very minor point, le jardin bistro is not worth a detour. while it may be a choice if one lives nearby, it would be odd, with all the choices nearby, one would CHOOSE that particular place. i assume u will take issue with that statement simply to disagree, so be it.

[SobaAddict70]

ok, if u want a debate, let's go, & don't go getting all offended when challenged:

1) how can u judge or comment when u have never been to one of the finest french/seafood restaurants in the City? it is one of the very few that many use as a standard. what explanation would u like?????

2)  what is your point?????

3) yes it does - reread my comments, then u may understand

4) thats what i said, what statement are u referring to??? its obvious u either did not read the below comment, or misinterpreted, please reread:

"le jardin bistro: may be good, but travelling down to cleveland place, just to save $'s, i don't think so. if in the area, balthazar a much better choice, which wasn't on the list because it is just too crowded, & therefore very difficult to just walk-in like many of the others."

where was le cirque 2000 mentioned? btw, isn't le cirque somewhat family-run?? doesn't le cirque qualify as an excellent example of my comments re: owner operated, hands-on, etc, etc... did u really read the comments as they referred to the topic??????????

I'm not offended at all, just a mite confused. (insert sarcasm emoticon here)

1. I asked for clarification regarding Le Bernardin. Perhaps someone else will deign to respond, if you won't. If you give an example without any context, then don't act surprised when someone asks for an explanation.

Next:

as alluded to above, it seems to definitely make a difference as to who owns a restaurant, & more importantly, if THAT person is there & exercises hands-on management. but, u say: "what about jean georges or daniel, etc..." i answer 2 ways: 1) le bernandin, 2) revisit the list - most of these are less ambitious than the "haute cuisine" places i think u are referring to(?)

2a. First I never said anything about "jean georges or daniel...etc."

2b. What "haute cuisine" places am I referring to? Gramercy Tavern and Home Restaurant, two examples of restaurants I care about, are not "temples of haute cuisine". They don't serve haute cuisine. What they serve is a style of food that I and others would call "New American".

I believe my original comment was:

Once in a while is all right -- more like once every three months or so. I might check Montparnasse out if you recommend it, but my taste in food runs more towards Italian (read: Babbo/Lupa as opposed to Italian-American) and New American (Home/Eleven Madison Park/Gramercy Tavern) with a healthy dash of Indian/Asian thrown in. Also, I prefer downtown locations.

3. Many people on this board, such as Suzanne and I like Jarnac. You discount it as "english-owned" and "another-french themed copy". Based on this logic, all good French restaurants should be owned by and run by French people, right?

Why bother going to Jarnac...never mind that their cassoulet and other offerings are pretty good. God forbid that Jean Georges should open a Chinese-French place and call it "66", can't possibly be good -- the man's not even Chinese to begin with.

Finally:

The statement "I prefer downtown locations" doesn't mean "I prefer downtown locations exclusively". I like and visit many restaurants north of 14th Street on a semi-regular basis: Sugiyama, Amma (which is located literally right across the street from my apartment), Chola, Tabla and USC to name a few. That said, the vast majority of places I go to are south of 14th Street. Hope that was clear as a bell.

Soba

[juuceman]

for those keeping score, i'm down to the following: reviews are brutal, but honest

les halles - loud but real

la goulue - authentic as can be in nyc

l'absinthe - the real thing

le clown - l'absinthe without the e.side "tude"

quartorze bis - amazingly french without any french!!!

chez jacqueline - the bistro everyone would like 2 blocks away

un deux trois - i know, but a "la coupole" in nyc, try it before u knock it

that's it, revisited the original list at the top, & realize the faults of those now omitted. life is cruel, but selectivity rules!!!

raoul's - the owners have abdicated to new mexico, living on past rep

le pere pinand - the owners want to expand their horizons, no longer cool

le jardin bistro - not worth the trip, unless in the area

madison bistro - boring & worse, unfriendly, how do they pay the rent?

bateau ivre & montparnasse - non-french owners trying to capitalize

jubilee - 1st & 54th - will remain a neighborhood bistro

jubilee 51 - ??? maybe, but jury out

le bilboquet - too many euro-trash & want-2-be's, let'em have it

ferrier - ditto

orsay - for those who can't get into la goulue

jacque's bistro - revisit when they lower their prices for average food on 85th & 3rd

demarchelier - i was right, too many boors at the bar

la bonne soupe - if u like lunching with tourists & dining with the early bird specials

la petite auberge - should retire, & lower the lights before leaving

jarnac - why?????? english-owned > another french-themed copy

park bistro - why is this place empty vs les halles across the st - packed?? duh

so many to start with, so few to enjoy!

uhhm.. great.. so, based on your 'list', you can walk into a bistro type spot on the upper east side, one spot in the middle of bumblefuck-murray hill (you WERE kidding about les halls, right?? i mean the food just basically sucks.. great, they have good fries.. good thing they're never packed so people have to wait at the non-existant bar, huh??) or go to the west village and hit un deus trois..

from what i took of your explanation "fair enough: it is a list of bistro-like places around the city which are good solid restaurants. easy to walk in & have a good meal at a reasonable price either at a table or at the bar" means to me you'd want to have a spot or two to drop in on in most neighorhoods that you'd be walking about in and decide to have a drink/meal..

so, based on your 'list' and exclusions, why would you ever leave your neighborhood?? great- selectivity rules.. at some point, a frisee salad is a fucking frisee salad.. especially when you're in soho and can walk into balthazar and sit in 20 minutes.. so you have a drink at the bar?? big deal.. at least the room isn't filled with half dead white men and their trophy women..

[jgould]

you WERE kidding about les halls, right?? i mean the food just basically sucks.. great, they have good fries..

a frisee salad is a fucking frisee salad..

that pretty much says it all!

[Bux]

Looking over that list, all I could think was, "It's been ages since we had real French food."  I've been to 7 of the 19, but not for many years.

The world is changing. The French don't eat real French food any longer. More than a few years ago I was visiting relatives in Rhode Island and, not by my choice, we ate in a French restaurant that seemed to have a long standing. The food wasn't all that good, to be charitable, but what struck me about the very old fashioned menu was that it was the first time in a long time that I thought of French food as ethnic food.

[Bux]

Some time ago we were regulars at Jardin Bistro. Even before Gerard left--I believe his ex-wife is running the place now--the food was inconsistent. One of the things I never much cared for was the plating of many of the main course with the same medley of unrelated vegetables. It doesn't take all that much care, effort or investment to carefully garnish each plate with suitable accompaniments. It's not a critical issue and the French tourists who seem to be at home there don't mind, but if it's a neighborhood place and you're thinking of eating there with some regularity, it starts to matter. They had a great pot of white beans and more varieties of animal protein--pig, duck, lamb on the bone, in sausage and whatever--than you should expect at twice the price. I could never finish it. I wanted them to reduce the price by fifty cents and serve half the portion. The moules frites were a bargain until I had to start requesting my fries "well done" so as not to get then half cooked. Then it came to pass that twice in two visits my mussels were distinctly over cooked and, I suspect, reheated. The price differential between it and Balthazar around the corner didn't seem all that great all of a sudden. The big difference is the lead time for reservation, or maybe that I can't realistically depend on getting a table as a walk in. We've done that, but by and large, the only tables that will be available are in the bar and some of those are very small and less than comfortable. The difference in the wine lists seemed to increase the spread in the cost of dinner as well, but le Jardin has raised it's wine prices and Balthazar has decent carafe wines at good prices, I thought. For all that, I have fond memories of Jardin Bistro as a neighborhood place we often saw familar faces. When the kitchen was "on" it was a decent comfortable place that was easy on the wallet. When the fires were very good, they were very good. They always made a good espresso as I recall.

[picaman]

le jardin bistro - not worth the trip, unless in the area

I'd suggest Tournesol, but that's all the way over in Long Island City. One entire subway stop out of Manhattan. Never mind.

Jamie

[bourdain]

Last week, a food mag publisher took me to a truly time-warp lunch at LE VEAU D'OR on East 60th Street. Open since 1943, the menu appears to have changed not at all since ; a compendium of lost bistro classics, deposited on the plate sans-garnish of any kind. The room is dusty, forlorn, with a mix of East side mummies and devoted solo afficianados sitting on weathered banquettes. ( A stranger waylaid me as I stoked up on nicotine out front: "Oh!! You know about this place!! It's SO great! This is my special place! Don;t tell anyone about it!) The ancient proprietor (the sole server)--in black and white waiter garb--throws your coat over a disused table and seats you. Drinks are said to often be self-service from the bar. It's the Restaurant That Time Forgot. I had celeri remoulade, my friend the leek (poireau) vinaigrette, followed by rognons de veau dijonnaise over white rice (and navarin of lamb). As regular MENU items, they continue to serve brains in beurre noir, and tripes a la mode de Caen and other dino-classics. I had Isle Flotant (!!) for dessert.

The food was much better than I expected, dead-on authentic (indistinguishable from similar run-of-the-mill Parisian joints) and LOTS of fun. For ambiance and presentation, a true step back into a past I thought had disappeared decades ago.

Which leads me to a question:

Anyone been to Tout Va Bien lately?

[picaman]

Anyone been to Tout Va Bien lately?

I had the Friday-night bouillabaisse about six months ago and was happy as all hell.

Jamie

[jgould]

[quote=JG

1) how can u judge or comment when u have never been to one of the finest french/seafood restaurants in the City? it is one of the very few that many use as a standard. what explanation would u like?????

4) thats what i said, what statement are u referring to??? its obvious u either did not read the below comment, or misinterpreted, please reread:

"le jardin bistro: may be good, but travelling down to cleveland place, just to save $'s, i don't think so. if in the area, balthazar a much better choice, which wasn't on the list because it is just too crowded, & therefore very difficult to just walk-in like many of the others."

[quote=SOBA

I'm not offended at all, just a mite confused. (insert sarcasm emoticon here)

1. I asked for clarification regarding Le Bernardin. Perhaps someone else will deign to respond, if you won't. If you give an example without any context, then don't act surprised when someone asks for an explanation.

I might check Montparnasse out if you recommend it

3. Many people on this board, such as Suzanne and I like Jarnac. You discount it as "english-owned" and "another-french themed copy". Based on this logic, all good French restaurants should be owned by and run by French people, right?

God forbid that Jean Georges should open a Chinese-French place and call it "66", can't possibly be good -- the man's not even Chinese to begin with.

Hope that was clear as a bell.

soba

JG:

overlooking your "insert sarcasm emoticon here" which is quite immature & unprofessional, particularly in such a wonderful forum such as egullet.

1. re: your clarification question re: le bernardin, THAT WAS THE RESTAURANT I WAS REFERRING TO ABOVE!!! might be a good idea to reread before commenting in the future

4. refer to to bux's le jardin critique

i would recommend u try montparnasse at least once to determine whether u would like or not.

3. that is certainly non-linear logic, which doesn't quite work. jarnac is a fine restaurant, my preference when going to a french bistro/restaurant is that it have FRENCH people speaking french. it adds to the ambiance & general level of enjoyment & lends itself to some authenticity. the fact that jarnac is english-owned & run does NOT make it bad, but less of a "general" ambiance. this is a very subtle point, but hopefully u will comprehend.

& unfortunately, it sounds like u are not at all familar with jean george's background, if u were, then u would understand the concept of "66".

& no, it was more like fog!

Edited February 20, 2004 by jgould (log)

[slkinsey]

my preference when going to a french bistro/restaurant is that it have FRENCH people speaking french. it adds to the ambiance & general level of enjoyment & lends itself to some authenticity. the fact that jarnac is english-owned & run does NOT make it bad, but less of a "general" ambiance. this is a very subtle point, but hopefully u will comprehend.

This seems very strange to me, as there are plenty of excellent French restaurants that are not staffed nor overwhelmingly frequented by French people. I mean, whatever floats your boat, of course... but I certainly wouldn't make the presence of a bunch of French-speaking people a prerequisite for my enjoyment of a bistro in New York City.

[jgould]

Last week, a food mag publisher took me to a truly time-warp lunch at LE VEAU D'OR on East 60th Street. Open since 1943, the menu appears to have changed not at all since ; a compendium of lost bistro classics, deposited on the plate sans-garnish of any kind. The room is dusty, forlorn, with a mix of East side mummies and devoted solo afficianados sitting on weathered banquettes. ( A stranger waylaid me as I stoked up on nicotine out front: "Oh!! You know about this place!! It's SO great! This is my special place! Don;t tell anyone about it!) The ancient proprietor (the sole server)--in black and white waiter garb--throws your coat over a disused table and seats you. Drinks are said to often be self-service from the bar. It's the Restaurant That Time Forgot. I had celeri remoulade, my friend the leek (poireau) vinaigrette, followed by rognons de veau dijonnaise over white rice (and navarin of lamb). As regular MENU items, they continue to serve brains in beurre noir, and tripes a la mode de Caen and other dino-classics. I had Isle Flotant (!!) for dessert.

The food was much better than I expected, dead-on authentic (indistinguishable from similar run-of-the-mill Parisian joints) and LOTS of fun. For ambiance and presentation, a true step back into a past I thought had disappeared decades ago.

Which leads me to a question:

Anyone been to Tout Va Bien lately?

had the very same time warp experience @ le veau d'or. never returned, & as a result of your comments, understand it hasn't changed a bit. but then again, why should it have since it has been doing the same since 1943.

unfortunately, the stranger should be doing a little promoting instead of continuing the sacred secret, possibly a good place to take a mistress, but thats another thread.

as to tout va bien, used to go all the time. food just acceptable, except for the frozen or canned vegetables. ambiance good, after pre-theatre crowd departs. bar somewhat dominated (@least when i used to go) by neighborhood regulars, which can be "interesting" depending...

father owns the building + other buildings so overhead lower than most.

jubilee 51 opened up in the tout va bien's sister bistro, le sans culotte, space couple of doors down. building also owned by tout's owner! so far, enjoyable. see my post under the jubilee 51 thread.

hopefully helpful

[jgould]

my preference when going to a french bistro/restaurant is that it have FRENCH people speaking french. it adds to the ambiance & general level of enjoyment & lends itself to some authenticity. the fact that jarnac is english-owned & run does NOT make it bad, but less of a "general" ambiance. this is a very subtle point, but hopefully u will comprehend.

This seems very strange to me, as there are plenty of excellent French restaurants that are not staffed nor overwhelmingly frequented by French people. I mean, whatever floats your boat, of course... but I certainly wouldn't make the presence of a bunch of French-speaking people a prerequisite for my enjoyment of a bistro in New York City.

JESUS, MOTHER OF GOD, ETC, ETC....

do u get off on dissecting every little piece of minutiae?

why i'm responding i don't know, except for the fact i started the thread, which i thought would be interesting & ellicit comments other than the BS it has engendered.

for the record, it WOULD seem strange to u, but it IS the little things that add up to make a restaurant whatever u want it to be in your eyes. that set of criteria may not be someone else's, but to nit pick someone else's adds little!

its also odd (to me) that "some" do NOT pick up on the subtleness of when visiting mexican restaurants, it "seems" like there are a lot of mexicans working there speaking in their native tongue. it "seems" that when visiting chinese, japanese, ITALIAN, argentine, etc, etc, etc.... there is mostly each of those ethnic groups working there!!!

is it a prerequisite - DUH, but it does ADD...

i assume the nitpickers will have fun with this post, instead of the intent of the thread as stated in the initial post at the top!!

as edward r. murrow said,

"goodnite from paris"

[Pan]

J, what are you getting so hot and bothered about, if these are minutiae? Perhaps if you clarify what criteria you want people to address in their replies, you'll have a better chance of getting those. But the question of what the ethnic makeup of an establishment's clientele shows and doesn't show is a subject of long standing on these boards. The answer is not always as clear-cut as you think, and does not require a personal attack on your part. I hope you have a good day and come back relaxed and refreshed, and lighten up, so that you can help ensure a productive continuation of an interesting thread that you started.

[TrishCT]

Which leads me to a question:

Anyone been to Tout Va Bien lately?

As I mentioned in the non-fancy restaurants thread, I haven't been to Tout Va Bien in a few years, the ambiance and menu then was exactly as it was in the 70's. The 30 or 40 something yr. old man who took our order said he was the son of the previous owner. The waitresses were very french and wore outdated french black waitress outfits. As our dinner wore on the drinks kept flowing and one of them hand wound an old phonograph that played french music. The place may not have the greatest french food, but you can have a great time there.

[Bux]

The waitresses were very french and wore outdated french black waitress outfits.

I suspect this degree of Frenchness hardly exists in France anymore.

Restaurants such as these are sort of sealed time capsules. One imagines that there are scores of faithful clients who have never been to France and who would be disappointed if they went.

[kinichiwa]

not to beat an already tired horse, but...Tony Powe, who is the owner of Jarnac, is by birth English (so the lovely accent) but was raised in the town of Jarnac. .

I don't know anyone who can speak french as well or discuss wines,cheese and cognac better than any frenchman as can Tony.

I'm not nitpicking but just thought i would add some info into the weave!

[rlibkind]

Which leads me to a question:

Anyone been to Tout Va Bien lately?

Haven't been there, but was at Chez Napoleon in November. They still have brains and tripe on the menu.

[Pan]

Is their food tasty?

[rlibkind]

Chez Napoleon: Tasty enough. Nothing special, but well executed. Although I occasionally indulge in tripe, I passed both that and brains up on my November visit. Instead I got one of the steaks (sirloin, I believe) with onions and blue cheese on top, cooked as ordered. You wouldn't confuse the meat with Luger's, but it was tasty and not too tough.

It is a homey place (allegedly an 82-year-old grand mere handles the stove duties), small but comfortable. Although the owners are complaining (including on their web site) that their business is threatened by the 9/11 dropoff, I found a busy pre-theater business when I was there Thanksgiving Week.

Edited February 21, 2004 by rlibkind (log)

[markk]

Balthazar and Pastis - Expensive and hard to get a table at peak times, but both do quality renditions of many French bistro classics. As much as I hate to admit it, these trendy see-and-be-seen restaurants offer better French bistro food than much of the competition in NYC.

They certainly do not! I can't speak for Pastis, but I recently ate at Balthazar and had a meal reminiscent of the old Restaurant Associates - the people who were able to recreate the airline dining experience at your table in a restaurant.

[Bux]

I wonder what you had. I've hit a clunker or two in Balthazar--the vegetable plate was one--and I have friends who are not pleased there, as well as friends who like Pastis and not Balthazar, but I've come to reply more and more on Balthazar as a neighborhood regular. It's quite possible I've just found a few favorites and they keep me happy. The goat cheese and onion tart is a very nice appetizer, although I often go there for the oysters. Mussels and fries have been very dependable. Dependable is important for a neighborhood place for me. Anyway the "frites" have always been excellent with whatever is ordered. In fact they make a very good hamburger although that certainly doesn't raise their credibility as an authentic French place. I'm also partial to the Pavlova dessert and they have good ice creams.

It's basic food. It's not fancy food. To a certain extent it's formula food. It's meant to emulate French brasserie food but for New York in 2004. I've found it's better quality than what I get when I pay less elsewhere, although it's not as good or interesting as what I can get for more money elsewhere. It's not destination food. I also happen to be one of those who defend the Flo empire in Paris and find them good enough to earn my money for certain menu items.

Disclaimer: I know the chefs, but I also avoided the place when it opened because I resented the limos in my neighborhood. I've come to find the limos as amusing as I find the changing crowds in Balthazar.

[jeffperez62]

I always walk past Le Gigot down on Carmine, I see they get a good Zagat rating (I know the Z word is a dirty word!) But has anyone been there recently?