Burger helper

[shelora]

Potato issue:

I just got off the phone with my local produce guy and he informed me of the following.

The kind of potatoes that I wanted Russet Burbank are not available all year, I guess there are two months out of the year where they are not available.

He also went on to tell me that the Burbank is only one kind of Russet. They also grow a potato called Norcoda and Gold Rush. From what I gather, the Burbank is the best because of the low moisture content. They will be unavailable from the middle of Sept to the end of Oct. This means that I may need to switch to the Gold Rush potato and adjust the fryer temp to acount for the higher moisture content.

With a fresh potato, I will also have to deal with the price going up and down along with potato size. These I can not control...I have to leave this up to mother nature and the whole supply and demand rules of the market.

It takes alot of work to produce a great product. Now I see why so many (fast food) establishments go with a frozen fry

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Having done some research into the French fries available where I live, the restaurnts who cut their own use, without a doubt, Kennebeck potatoes. Why? Consistency. The majority of these potatoes hail from the U.S. Have you ever heard of them?

I found the oil used in frying is 100% canola, with one location using peanut oil and another beef tallow.

All the places have different degrees of fry excellence but the potato used remains the same throughout. I've seen these great boxes of spuds in restaurants and each potato is pretty much the same size.

Edited September 27, 2005 by shelora (log)

[divalasvegas]

Progress:

I found a place to park my establishment. I went to the owner (an older gentleman) and told him that I would like to park my establishment on his property. After I told him what I wanted to do, with the detail that I was going for the 1940-50 look he was so happy...he said that he will charge me $35 bucks a month....Wow.

Also, I have tracked down another source for Beef tallow. The only issue is that it is 95% beef tallow and 5% soybean oil. Does anyone know if this combo of shortening will be an issue. 

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger

Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger

black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:

Regular potato

Sweet potato

O-Rings

Does anyone know anything about onion rings? I would like to make fresh onion rings but dont know the best onions to use for this. Should they be beer battered. or breaded.

Or

Should the menu be trimed down a bit...again, I would rather have a fantastic small menu than a good big menu.

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You have so many great ideas Magus. I just had a couple of opinions/suggestions and questions for you:

I agree with everyone else here who has advised you to keep it small. When I think of the original McDonalds menu and what their menu looks like today, well it's dizzying IMHO.

When you say "fish burger" are you thinking of a fish fillet? What kind? What kind of fish is local, from Michigan rivers that you can purchase for a good price and are of good quality year-round? Or (shudder) are you speaking of a reconstituted, rectangular fish product like micky-d's? To start, I'd go with the beef burger, portobella burger, and the chicken burger/fillet although the chopped lobster burger sounds delicious.

Bless you for the beef tallow blend for the fries. Battered onion rings for sure. Sweet potato fries are intriguing. Have you considered making the final product have a salty/sweet taste, say, right after they come out of the fryer they get a hit of salt and raw/turbinado sugar? I know a lot of people like that flavor contrast (including me).

As for cheese for the beef burger, how about adding two more: a good aged cheddar and a swiss cheese?

And for condiments, I've always loved the option of a good horseradish mayo type concoction every once in a while. I remember Roy Rogers used to offer that for their roast beef sandwiches.

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

[Magus]

Having done some research into the French fries available where I live, the restaurnts who cut their own use, without a doubt, Kennebeck potatoes. Why? Consistency. The majority of these potatoes hail from the U.S. Have you ever heard of them?

I have not heard of them but I am researching them now..thank you so much.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Magus (log)

[Magus]

Progress:

When you say "fish burger" are you thinking of a fish fillet?

Red fish

  Or (shudder) are you speaking of a reconstituted, rectangular fish product like micky-d's?

I would rather drill screws into my toenails than to serve that!!!!

Have you considered making the final product have a salty/sweet taste, say, right after they come out of the fryer they get a hit of salt and raw/turbinado sugar?  I know a lot of people like that flavor contrast (including me).

No, I have not thought of that, BUT! I am currently working on a salt and balslamic vinegar combo. I am trying to get the mixture right to be able to mist the mixture over the fries without making them soggy.

As for cheese for the beef burger, how about adding two more: a good aged cheddar and a swiss cheese?

I like thoes ideas...I also like feta.

And for condiments, I've always loved the option of a good horseradish mayo type concoction

Funny you say that, I already have one and it has been very well recieved so far. I also have a garlic mayo for the lemon garlic marinated chicken burger.

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

I think I would rather remain a small guy with a big rep.

[MarketStEl]

No, its probably not an issue. Soybean oil is actually a very good oil for deep frying because of the very high smoke point.

High smoke point? Does this mean that the oil breakdown is less. (last longer)

I can cook at higher temps?

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Yes to all your questions.

The higher the oil's smoke point, the longer you can use it, because it won't break down as quickly.

Of course, if you cook at higher temperatures, you accelerate the breakdown process.

[MarketStEl]

One more comment after looking at your post on how you plan to package your food:

You're in Michigan. It gets cold there in the winter.

Given any thought to offering hot coffee and tea, or hot chocolate in season?

[shelora]

Ever heard of poutine? It's a French Canadian "delicacy" involving melted cheese curds and gravy over French fries.

On a cold winter day with lots of black pepper? Watch out.

[divalasvegas]

Progress:

Best of luck and when you franchise, please consider the DC/Metro area, okay?

I think I would rather remain a small guy with a big rep.

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Amen to that!

One more question. When it comes to beverages other than milk shakes are you going to start out with fountain sodas or just figure out what's the most popular in that area and use a refrigeration unit? My guess is that a refrigeration unit would be the cheaper option, with whatever you determine to be most popular served in bottles or cans (a few less paper/styrofoam products to worry about), at least in the short run.

Again, I wish you all the best.

[Magus]

One more question.  When it comes to beverages other than milk shakes are you going to start out with fountain sodas or just figure out what's the most popular in that area and use a refrigeration unit?

That is a hard question. I like the "idea" of havig fountain drinks and I may do this, but I remember on my visits down south, they had soda in tall skinny bottles. I liked thoes alot...the drinks just seemed to taste different.

I believe that I will go with fountain drinks. I cant afford to take any shortcuts. The reason why I want to push my own brand of items. I "want" to be as self reliant as possible.

Yes, Can soda would be less trouble but live in MI where a deposit is 10 cents. These are dimes that I will spend and never see again and this adds up. On the other hand...I did find the distributor for Papaya King Juices.

[Pan]

Just a couple of thoughts:

(1) If you're going to go the seafood route, how about crab cakes or burgers instead of lobster burgers? I think it's probably easier to buy good lumpen crab meat than good lobster meat. Lobsters that aren't completely fresh just aren't good, but my possibly erroneous impression is that crab seems to keep a bit better.

(2) It's really hard to find good onion rings. You need to keep the batter thin and use good-sized rings of high-quality onion. There are fewer onion ring fanatics than french fry folks, but we can be really rabid, so if you get known for serving superior onion rings, word could travel fast.

[Shalmanese]

I know your at the stage where you are commited to an excellent product but have you sat down and thought about how much this is all going to cost and what your going to have to price stuff as to make a profit?

It may well turn out that a "casual" burger at your place would cost comparable to a sit-down meal. I know quality counts and all that but you have to also realise that most people are unwilling to pay that much. Especially if your in a out-of-the-way location. Then again, your rent is minimal and you have no staff costs so you can probably afford to build up business slowly and organically.

[Magus]

I know your at the stage where you are commited to an excellent product but have you sat down and thought about how much this is all going to cost and what your going to have to price stuff as to make a profit?

It may well turn out that a "casual" burger at your place would cost comparable to a sit-down meal. I know quality counts and all that but you have to also realise that most people are unwilling to pay that much. Especially if your in a out-of-the-way location. Then again, your rent is minimal and you have no staff costs so you can probably afford to build up business slowly and organically.

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Well...I am a strong believer that if it doesn't make dollars it doesn't make sense.

So I am very well aware of all the numbers.

Commited to an excellent product?...I think that may be an understatement ...I am in the obsessed relm at this point.

My first goal is to please my customers by making sure that EVERY burger that is served form my establishment is of great quality and taste. By focusing on all of my customers first...all else will be a piece of cake.

Edited September 28, 2005 by Magus (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

"Commited to an excellent product?...I think that may be an understatement ...I am in the obsessed relm at this point." Magus

This is great to hear, a lot of the time people starting a food service business will only think of the numbers and turning a profit. I think that by focusing on a great product a business has a much better chance in the long run than ones just focused on cost.

It is refreshing to see people turn to EGullet for advice on this you, Glenn Susser (melt), Eric Eisenbud (I do not think he has settled on a name yet but same deal as you but with hotdogs), Lazrowp (kaiten [spl] style sushi in Pennsylvania), and many others.

Best of wishes to you and your business, that balsamic salt spray sounds great. Damb now I am going to have to fly out to MI.

Edited September 28, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[savvysearch]

Do you have a secret sauce or are you going basic with the condiments? You should also consider malted shakes instead of milkshakes. Many prefer them over regular milkshakes.

In-n-out has a great way of wrapping their burgers in waxed paper and placing them in paper pouches. Visually, it makes the burgers more appetizing.

According the the Les Halles cookbook, Bourdain prefers beef fat, but says beef fat breaks down too quickly and is expensive and difficult to handle in a busy restaurant. Both Bourdain and Thomas Keller use peanut oil for the fries.

Here is something said by Alan Richman that may be useful to you from July 2005 GQ where he ranks the 20 best burgers in the nation:

I've always believed this about burgers. The best beef is chuck, which is particularly flavorful. Ordinary ground beef is bland. Sirloin is magnificent but perhaps overly aristocratic. Ground round is almost always too dry. I also believe in the hand-formed, loosely packed burger. Performed patties are useful but never great, because compressed meat is incapable of rising above mediocrity. Here are a few words youve never heard spoken at the conclusion of a meal "That pressed food was mighty good."

Edited September 28, 2005 by savvysearch (log)

[divalasvegas]

Hello again Magnus. I think that the points made here about everyone's admiration for your devotion to quality are dead on. No one here wants to eat at yet another place that "taste's" like all they care about is the bottom line. However, because I am so excited for you and your vision, I must reiterate Shalmanese's point about cost. Have you figured out, to your satisfaction, how much money EACH DAY you are in operation you will have to make to:

Just to break even, as in take care of you and yours, as well as all of every possible thing that you might be conceivably responsible for, both forseeable and not: rent, insurance (insurance costs that many savvy business owners never imagined), taxes at all levels, workman's comp, some bizarro turn in events, i.e., burger sales going way down after another Oprah vs. meat industry battle publicity disaster, cold feet by investor relatives/friends, and other financial issues that only a psychic friend could foresee? And, let alone make a profit? Actually, although I decry the decline of Food Network programming, have you ever watched one of their newer shows, "Recipe for Success?" As someone who has never been in the for-profit end of the food industry, I think that this show is a pretty good one and tells some cautionary tales for those hoping to start off on their own in the food business.

You seem to have a) given a lot of forethought to your dream; and, b) come to just the right place (eG) for all of the good advice I've seen given to you.

As I have said before, all the best to you.

Edited for spelling

Edited September 28, 2005 by divalasvegas (log)

[EdS]

My advice would be to come up with a minimal menu...and then cut from there. Fish burgers, etc. just muddle the focus and reduce your chances of success.

In-N-Out has done quite well out here on this concept. They have a cult following. I won't say they have the best burger and fries but everything is fresh and done without the typical compromises. They sometimes open right across the street from a McDonald's. I saw this happen near my old place. It was like squashing a bug. Their philosophy is similar to the old McDonald's. Great burgers, fries, shakes, and soda. That's it. No microwaves. No heat lamps. No freezers. No B.S. Everything made fresh. It really works. They are privately-held and do not franchise. They have over 180 locations. Same-store sales are greater than McDonald's. This is supposedly healthy California. They have no problems selling burgers here. People will eat their burgers if they are good.

Menu

History

Freshness

If I were opening a burger place, I'd basically copy their business model since I haven't seen a better one in today's environment. I think the meat in the burger could be tweaked. They're using good fresh ground beef and making the patties well, in my opinion, but I've had a better mixture elsewhere. They are also notorious for undercooking the fries. I don't know why they do that. That's the most common complaint. It's a conscious choice on their part. Ask for "well-done" fries and they know what to do.

There are only three types of burgers on the menu but there are other items on their Secret Menu.

Two well-known In-N-Out fans: Julia Child and Thomas Keller

LA Magazine article

It's certainly not my favorite restaurant nor do I even eat there frequently but it's the only example of quality chain fast-food on a pretty large scale that I can think of so I'm a fan.

Edited September 28, 2005 by esvoboda (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

I would second Divas comment on cost, and the "recipe for succes" show as much as the F.network has let me down lately it is one of the shows I watch(not to snark on). As Glenn of melt said to Lazrowp starting the rest' in Pennsylvania "The only suggestion I have at the moment is to add a line item in your budget along the lines, "mindless expenses I never ever would have thought of in a gazillion years." And that amount should be equal to your total budget. )" as alway best of luck.

[Magus]

However because I am so excited for you and your vision, I must reiterate Shalmanese's point about cost.  Have you figured out, to your satisfaction, how much money EACH DAY you are in operation you will have to make to:

Just to break even, as in take care of you and yours, as well as all of every possible thing that you might be conceivably responsible for, both forseeable and not:  rent, insurance (insurance costs that many savvy business owners never imagined), taxes at all levels, workman's comp, some bizarro turn in events, i.e., burger sales going way down after another Oprah vs. meat industry battle publicity disaster, cold feet by investor relatives/friends, and other financial issues that only a psychic friend could foresee?

I never thought that I would say this but I am greatful for growing up in Marcy Projects (Brooklyn) I have learned most of my busiess skills watching the Hustlers on the street. I took this street knowledge and paired it with book knowledge and this is what I have found:

People are human, t does not matter what product you are selling for profit..the first formost issue is the customer. Treat your customers like they are kings and they will take care of you, treat people like sales and you wont be in the game long. Only take calculated risk...this means that I not only have to know about my back office but the back office of my competiton...who are their distributors, what price are they getting, how do I go in and take market share. Keep my ear to the street and stay flexable, be adaptable...or die.

I short, I dont like supprises, so I focus on what can go wrong. If I know what can go wrong I can take care of thoes things before they become a problem.

I have been thinking about this for the past three years, running what if analysis

I also put effeort in planning to go out of business. Yes, there are things that I can not contol, things that just come up...there is even a way to go out of busiess withough loosing your shirt.

I have run a food cart business for the past five years and I am proud to say that my company is still debt free.

[Jason Perlow]

Other offerings:

My thoughts.

Breaded red fish burger

Chopped lobster burger

Portabella burger

black bean burger

Blue cheese burger

marinated chicken burger

(sorry I dont have any names for the burgers yet)

Friers:

Regular potato

Sweet potato

O-Rings

Magus, I really have to re-iterate that you can only do things well if you minimize your menu offerings. Condiments on burgers are one thing, but honestly, I would stick to just burgers, shakes and fries, maybe onion rings. I wouldn't bother offering fish or chicken or any of those other things or worrying about vegans or vegetarians, in my opinion servicing that market is a complete waste of time at the scale you are working on. Some of the best little burger places in this country have nothing but burgers, and you have to wait on lines to get into these places.

[Magus]

Jason...Maybe you are right. It will make my life so much more simple. I can save my other ideas for future ventures.

On another note, Has anyone tasted the shakes from Steak and Shake. I think thoes taaste pretty good.

Also, I notice that there isn't anyone...at least in my area that makes fresh potato chips instead of fries...wonder why.

I have never been to the shake shack...how are their shakes?

Does anyone know if they use ice cream or custard for their shakes?

[Jason Perlow]

Shake Shack uses custard. I like their shakes, but they are more focused on the new and innovative flavor types of shakes than they are the traditional ones.

As to making your life simple -- if you really want the chicken/veggie/seafood burgers I would perhaps wait to introduce them one at a time six months after your business opens as new items, just to see what the reaction to each of them is. My gut instinct tells me that the fish/lobster/crab stuff and the veggie will not nearly be as popular as a chicken breast or chicken/turkey burger.

With these kinds of places people are more interested in the occassional splurge and going all the way on a greasy burger with shakes and fries than worrying about their waistline. At least, that is my perception.

[Chris Amirault]

As to making your life simple -- if you really want the chicken/veggie/seafood burgers I would perhaps wait to introduce them one at a time six months after your business opens as new items, just to see what the reaction to each of them is.

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I really think that Jason is correct here. I keep thinking about Spike's Junkyard Dogs, which started as a small shop seeing 100% beef hot dogs, fresh buns, and curly fries, period. They built a huge following here in RI and expanded into MA, won a bunch of "best hot dog" awards, and only then did they test market and introduce, first, chicken breast sandwiches (that fit right into those buns, natch), and then wings. Simple, simple, simple.

[MarketStEl]

Going back through this conversation, which I've found very enjoyable--I too find it admirable that you're going into this first and foremost for the love of food; it's like that old saying, "Do something you love and you'll never work a day in your life"--I notice there's one ingredient that it appears no one has given any thought to:

The bun.

We were talking upthread about how big a patty you would need to fill the bun. You might also want to consider how small a bun you might want to show off the patty.

The supermarket store brand/standard commercial bakery hamburger bun can handle a hand-formed quarter-pound patty and make it look quite good, for it's pretty compact. But it doesn't taste like much, because it is good old soft white bread with a bigger outer crust.

Kaiser rolls are used by a number of very good burger joints, and they have better texture--and, depending on the source, better taste as well. They stand up to wet condiments better than standard hamburger buns. But they've got a bigger cross-section than those buns as well, and burger patties often get lost in them. You don't want your customers to have a Clara Peller* experience.

If you can afford it, you might want to contact a good local baker in your area and ask if you can get good, dense rolls like Kaisers, but in a smaller size.

Your customers probably won't complain if you use commercial burger buns. But I get the impression that if it's possible, you want something better. Or at least more distinctive: Potato rolls, perhaps, or challah?

*Clara Peller was the sixtysomething woman who rocketed to fame in the 1970s on the back of a famous Wendy's commercial in which she and two friends note the "really big bun" of an unnamed competitor. Clara was more interested in what's inside: "Where's the beef?" became a catchphrase for anyone who suspected they were being offered nothing but air by someone.

Edited September 28, 2005 by MarketStEl (log)

[MarketStEl]

There are only three types of burgers on the menu but there are other items on their Secret Menu.

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It's no longer a secret.

[buffy]

Been reading this thread just drooling. It's impossible to get anything close to a good burger in this area. I'm a guy who loves his burgers. I love what you are trying to do and just one thing comes to mind. If you are using beef fat for the fries you might turn away any vegetarians who might want to order fries with their fish burger, portabello burger or the like from your menu. I know it's supposed to be a burger place, but just wanted to throw that in.

Good luck and I hope to be able to try one of your burgers someday!