Korean Dining-Proper Etiquette

[touaregsand]

My palate for Korean food is not at all Americanized. I'm certain I've eaten more regional Korean food than this woman.

I'm sure Soup and a few others here know what I'm talking about when I say sometimes the accusation of 'too Americanized' is a groundless dismissal.

Big ole Nationalistic chip on the shoulder.

I've seen it time and time again, a fantasy appraisal of something as authentic based on who made it. I can cook Korean exactly the way my mother does. But because of prejudiced, closed mindedness from the source culture my food will almost automatically be dismissed as not authentic or lacking that certain something. It's ridiculous at times, "Ooh, delicious" they say while gobbling it all up and asking for seconds, "but I'll go back to true Korean food." If they think my mother made the same dish "please share the secret techniques and ingredients!"

[jennahan]

My sympathies...but don't you think that such an attitude is very Korean? I mean this zenophobic, superior, "you are not really Korean because you don't act/look/dress/live like us" attitude. I dealt with this first when I visited Korea at the age of 9, and later at university where I was politely held at arm's length by the "true" Koreans. Sad, but a cultural fact.

[touaregsand]

My sympathies...but don't you think that such an attitude is very Korean?  I mean this zenophobic, superior, "you are not really Korean because you don't act/look/dress/live like us" attitude.  I dealt with this first when I visited Korea at the age of 9, and later at university where I was politely held at arm's length by the "true" Koreans.  Sad, but a cultural fact.

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Yes, it is very Korean. Except for the Koreans here who are not really Korean.

[Pan]

She started the whole discussion. Her responses were dismissive initially. Basically she is an "authentic true Korean" and I am too "Americanized" to understand "authentic".[...]

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So who is she teaching, then?

[touaregsand]

Her students are mostly Korean.

All of this reminds me of the time I made kimbap for a potluck graduation buffet at my daughter's Korean preschool. Two other women made kimbap as well. My platter was devoured right away, the other platters were left largely unfinished. When they found out who was the culprit behind the delicious kimbap comments like "I was wondering why it was a little different and not quite authentic" immediately followed. These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

There was nothing in it that is not a traditional ingredient and the presentation was traditional as well.

[glossyp]

comments like "I was wondering why it was a little different and not quite authentic" immediately followed.  These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

There was nothing in it that is not a traditional ingredient and the presentation was traditional as well.

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I really sympathize with the targets of the attitude some Koreans put on those they consider "less Korean". As a non-Korean who lived in Korea, spoke the language fluently and worked for Korean entities, I was treated much better and with more graciousness than my Korean co-workers who had come back to Korea after schooling overseas or who grew up outside Korea and moved there. They were constantly reminded that they didn't "fit in" - I on the other hand never would so it didn't matter. I remember one instance where we had a potluck-style lunch party for a coworker and people actually snubbed the dish of chapchae one of my "not as Korean as she ought to be" friends had prepared. It was fine, it was prepared perfectly but I ended up eating most of it to try and help her save face. I was appalled. So many instances where I saw this type of prejudice happen, this one just happened to be food-related.

BTW, I wonder if their definition of "traditional" means it has to taste bad???

edited as usual for clarity

Edited June 27, 2005 by glossyp (log)

[touaregsand]

My husband was treated like a minor celebrity when we were living in Seoul. He was on an SK Telecom commercial. Even here in LA he's been featured in Korean newspapers, magazines and TV. He says a few words in Korean and they giggle in delight.

My Korean has degenerated these days, but when we were living there I had total native fluency, no accent at all. Untill people found out I was a gyopo. Then all of a sudden I had an accent and there was something to laugh at in every other sentence I uttered. The same people would effusively complement my husband's broken Korean.

"not as Korean as she ought to be"

I suspect alot of it has to do with insecurity. It usually applies more to women. Korean-American men are fawned over, especially if they have a degree from a better University.

BTW, I wonder if their definition of "traditional" means it has to taste bad???

My grandmother is an awful cook. My mother sometimes makes kimchi herself and gives it to my husband telling him halmuni made it. This always convinces him it must be better.

[melonpan]

These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

if you know this, you should try to be more understanding of the people who say these things.

focus on feeling satisfaction with the fact that people always devour all your platters.

authentic or not, at the end of the day, a finished platter is a finished platter. those unfinshed are what they are.

[jschyun]

I recall that the Aristocracy and landed gentry used silver chopsticks partly for fear of poisoning.

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Yeah, this is what they tell you when you go on tour of Changdok Palace, IIRC. Or was it at Biwon? Crap I forget. Anyway, they tell you the whole spiel about how the silver chopsticks turned black if there was poison in the food, which is why the king and his buddies used them.

Honestly I find the whole "not korean enough" thing weird since everyone I know is sending their kids to America for a year or more to learn English. Smells like butter, hehe whatever. But I know what you guys are saying. Luckily I'm so American, nobody really says anything about my accent. If there's any doubt, i tell them I'm American and apologize for no reason, then I can get my business done without further incident.

So far, i don't actually know anyone who is teaching their kids Chinese though I read about it somewhere, and this would make more sense than learning English.

[Ben Hong]

These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

if you know this, you should try to be more understanding of the people who say these things.

I respectfully disagree with that attitude. It's all nice to be civil when faced with insulting behaviour, but that way will NOT show the offender the error of his/her ways...that those kind of remarks are hurtful. If that attitude is so ingrained, how in hell are the offenders going to know that they are being offensive unless someone gently (maybe not, if it were me) shows them that they are??? After 55 years of being the meek "Ornamental" (touaregsand's word), I have found that most ignorant people are ignorant because they know no better and most will accept an explanation or a mild correction of their offensive behaviour.

[touaregsand]

These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

if you know this, you should try to be more understanding of the people who say these things.

focus on feeling satisfaction with the fact that people always devour all your platters.

authentic or not, at the end of the day, a finished platter is a finished platter. those unfinshed are what they are.

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I think that I do understand why. At the risk of going off topic on a food only site it has alot to do with the turmoil Korea and Koreans endured during the last century, Japanese annexation, the Korean war and rapid industrialization. My uncle was a congressman during President Park's reign. "Daehan minguk manse"

I really think it's time that there is some internal questioning of what we are as a people. We have a deep sense of kinship with eachother.

I've been going back to Korea since I was 7 or 8. After all these years it's just so tiring to be sized up all the time on a shallow measure of what a Korean is supposed to be. Alot of this has to do with politics, which we cannot discuss here.

[touaregsand]

I recall that the Aristocracy and landed gentry used silver chopsticks partly for fear of poisoning.

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Yeah, this is what they tell you when you go on tour of Changdok Palace, IIRC. Or was it at Biwon? Crap I forget. Anyway, they tell you the whole spiel about how the silver chopsticks turned black if there was poison in the food, which is why the king and his buddies used them.

Honestly I find the whole "not korean enough" thing weird since everyone I know is sending their kids to America for a year or more to learn English. Smells like butter, hehe whatever. But I know what you guys are saying. Luckily I'm so American, nobody really says anything about my accent. If there's any doubt, i tell them I'm American and apologize for no reason, then I can get my business done without further incident.

So far, i don't actually know anyone who is teaching their kids Chinese though I read about it somewhere, and this would make more sense than learning English.

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The ability to read Chinese and write Chinese caligraphy with a brush and black ink was a mark of an educated Korean at least up untill my grandparents time. My paternal grandmother was an accomplished caligrapher. My dad and many of my elder relatives can read and write Chinese 'characters' or 'ideographs.' An uncle of mine wrote a book in Chinese and another in old Korean.

Another uncle of mine was recently given a gov't grant to study Chinese in Beijing for 2 years.

Edited June 28, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[melonpan]

These cultural attitudes are so deep that people just say stuff without even thinking about it.

if you know this, you should try to be more understanding of the people who say these things.

I respectfully disagree with that attitude. It's all nice to be civil when faced with insulting behaviour, but that way will NOT show the offender the error of his/her ways...that those kind of remarks are hurtful.

you are right, we have a difference of opinion. i am cynical. i dont think that kind of attitude can be changed easily. and if it can be changed it wont be changed without a fight and i dont have the time or energy to fight it.

deep down, i believe that very few people above a certain age can change that kind of attitude...

If that attitude is so ingrained, how in hell are the offenders going to know that they are being offensive unless someone gently (maybe not, if it were me) shows them that they are???

i believe that it is EXTREMELY hard to point out to these kinds of people that they are in the wrong. no matter what you say, no matter how logical you are, these people will believe that they are right.

I have found that most ignorant people are ignorant because they know no better and most will accept an explanation or a mild correction of their offensive behaviour.

when i politely asked my relatives not to make certain kinds of remarks, their behaviour did not change. maybe i did not ask bluntly enough or persuasively enough or maybe, quite frankly, i didnt have their respect. but their behaviour did not change.

i just give up on these points and move on. it sounds like you deal with more rational sorts of people. i wish my experience was more like yours, ben...

i will take the example of the kimbap.

so i make some kimbap and it is devoured. then people find out that i made it. suddenly they say "i was wondering why it was a little different" ("역시 뭐가 쪼금달라도 달라...") and then i insist that i am korean, that i grew up in korea, that i KNOW korean food, etc. they just say "oh, no matter how well you make it, REAL korean people like me can tell the difference" ("아, 아무리 비슷하게 만들어도, 진짜한국사람은 알아.")

and then if you insist that you know the difference and they will simply insist the same ("...딱 먹어보면 알아"), that you actually dont know ("넌 먹어봐도 다른거를 잘모를거야...")

you could try to point out how rude they are being or whatever, but it wont work. its just impossible and if i was in the same position, i would not bother and be smug in the fact that all my kimbap was gone.

i sound like a crusty old roll... i dont think im cynical. but i dont have the motivation to try make this place a better world. not in that way at least. i try hard in other ways.

now if only i could get everyone to finish my platters in real life...

(i suppose im not a very good cook. )

[melonpan]

After 55 years of being the meek "Ornamental" (touaregsand's word), I have found that most ignorant people are ignorant because they know no better and most will accept an explanation or a mild correction of their offensive behaviour.

i hope that i will eventually feel that others will accept an explanation or a mild correction from me about certain things. i just dont feel that now.

[touaregsand]

Melonpan is officially more Korean than I am. She has a Korean keyboard and fonts installed.

Nah, it's not like I go around with arguing with people about it. The woman approached me and initiated the conversation.

(Btw, I can cook alot of French and Algerian food exactly like my husband. At least in a home environment. I have some funny stories about how people, not just Koreans, react to food when they think a fancy pants French chef made it)

[Soup]

most people I point stuff out to don't change. So unless the person really matters or I have to interact with them often, what's the point. "you can't die on every mountain" and I just pick my battles.

BTW, the talk of Kimbap is getting me hungry.

[SobaAddict70]

What's kimbap? It's like bibimbap but with kimchi?

[Pan]

[...](Btw, I can cook alot of French and Algerian food exactly like my husband. At least in a home environment. I have some funny stories about how people, not just Koreans, react to food when they think a fancy pants French chef made it)

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Very intriguing, touaregsand.

I've spun off a thread on the issues of psychological reactions to food based on attitudes about the people who did or allegedly cooked it:

Reactions based on cook's identity, or who you THINK the cook is

I'll look forward to some of those stories.

[glossyp]

What's kimbap?  It's like bibimbap but with kimchi?

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It's a delightful log of rice, assorted vegetables including Korean-style pickled radish, etc. rolled up in a sheet of kim aka dried laver. I would love to have Touaregsand's version, hint, hint.

[ellencho]

From touregsand's and melonpan's posts, it seems to me that being accused of being "too americanized" or "not Korean enough" is just a lame defense for making crappy food and a way for them to save face because everyone liked melonpan's kimbap better. If it tastes good it tastes good, and unless they are judging an authenticity contest, what does it matter if your food is authentic enough for them.

I'll be the first to admit that in a native Korean's eyes I'm definitely too Americanized and not Korean enough, but if they can dismiss a dish that I made simply because I was born in the US and don't speak the most fluent Korean then they can kiss my "banana" butt. I don't have time for thinly veiled insults from a bunch of insecure "real Koreans".

[ellencho]

What's kimbap?  It's like bibimbap but with kimchi?

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It's a delightful log of rice, assorted vegetables including Korean-style pickled radish, etc. rolled up in a sheet of kim aka dried laver. I would love to have Touaregsand's version, hint, hint.

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Hehe, log, I never thought of it as a log but until you cut it, it sure is a log. It's similar to a Japanese futo maki, but it has slightly different ingredients in it, depending on who makes it. You can normally find them premade over at Korean markets, usually with some sort of seasoned beef, pickled veggies, spinach, egg. My mom uses kimbap as a way to use leftovers in our house, and oftentime will substitute spam for the beef.

[touaregsand]

Kimbap is typical picnic, day trip, hiking fare. When I was growing up we always woke up early on the day of an outing to make it together as a family.

The components are cooked and seasoned individually as for bibimbap.

I season freshly cooked rice with a little sesame oil, salt and toasted sesame seeds

The spinach is prepared naemul style. Quickly blanched with the moisture squeezed out then seasoned with salt, sesame oil and garlic.

Julienne carrots on a mandoline, saute in a little oil and garlic, season with salt. The carrots should have a bit of a crunch to them.

I prepare the eggs like a paper thin omelette and cut into long thin slices

I cut takuan into long thin strips

I usually add bulgogi, my mother prefers ono kamaboko.

Roll it all together.

I'm writing this off the top of my head. If there something I left out I'll add it later.

(the log description did make me smile)

[glossyp]

Thanks for the recipe! I can guess why your kimbap is so popular. I've seen various methods including those where the cook uses mostly pickled veggies so the gentle cooking for the fresh veggies is a plus. The biggie for me is the bulkogi - yum, meat! Most of the ones I ate out and about never had meat in them.

The log description comes from the first time I saw one at the market and they were offered on the counter rolled up and uncut for ease of transport and eating. Students and others would purchase them as snacks and eat them like that. Very convenient "fast food" and it might also reveal the kind of neighborhoods I lived in during the early years in Korea!

Note to ellencho: SPAM is common in Hawaiian kimbap and is a variation I've been known to enjoy.

[SuzySushi]

What's kimbap?  It's like bibimbap but with kimchi?

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It's a delightful log of rice, assorted vegetables including Korean-style pickled radish, etc. rolled up in a sheet of kim aka dried laver. I would love to have Touaregsand's version, hint, hint.

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Hehe, log, I never thought of it as a log but until you cut it, it sure is a log. It's similar to a Japanese futo maki, but it has slightly different ingredients in it, depending on who makes it. You can normally find them premade over at Korean markets, usually with some sort of seasoned beef, pickled veggies, spinach, egg. My mom uses kimbap as a way to use leftovers in our house, and oftentime will substitute spam for the beef.

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Huh! I'm going to have to look for it next time I'm by a Korean market. I never realized that the filling was different than Japanese futomaki!

(Note to self: time to ask for it at my local Korean-run take-out sushi place. Won't they be surprised by this haole!)

[touaregsand]

Thanks for the recipe! I can guess why your kimbap is so popular. I've seen various methods including those where the cook uses mostly pickled veggies so the gentle cooking for the fresh veggies is a plus. The biggie for me is the bulkogi - yum, meat! Most of the ones I ate out and about never had meat in them.

The log description comes from the first time I saw one at the market and they were offered on the counter rolled up and uncut for ease of transport and eating. Students and others would purchase them as snacks and eat them like that. Very convenient "fast food" and it might also reveal the kind of neighborhoods I lived in during the early years in Korea!

Note to ellencho: SPAM is common in Hawaiian kimbap and is a variation I've been known to enjoy.

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Thank you for the complement.

I think the trick to good kimbap is the texture of the rice and I also think it should be seasoned. I find that adding a bit of sesame oil keeps the grains from getting mushy.

A short cut at home is the make the rice yourself and buy packaged bibimbap vegetables.

I remember sometimes hating to wake up early to all that work before a picnic!