Dinner Guests Don't Return Favor

[Genny]

I'll also note that even though it's never, EVER, expected, those who help a bit with the dishes are more likely to get invited again! 

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This is why I don't mind hosting Thanksgiving for an entire week with my in-laws. They do have an annoying habit of poaching off plates while I am trying to dress them and put them out (I should say 'had', a little knife weilding can do wonders!) but they are all so gracious soux chefs and dishwashers! I just have meal planning, shopping (usually with the SIL and they purchase some of the groceries), and cooking. Anytime I need help there is a willing body to pitch in and chop! The only thing I take umbrige with is Gramma trying to get a hug while I'm up to my elbows stuffing herbed butter under the turkey skin

[designchick88]

That's what dinner parties are for: they make you clean the house!

Slightly OT, here - does anyone watch that show on Style Network called Clean House, or the similar show on TLC called Clean Sweep? It features absolutely chaotic homes where people store random items in various rooms (there's usually a packrat in the household somewhere responsible) and they have a crew come in to help the family sort, sell and organize their belongings, and then the crew redecorates one or two of their rooms. It is hysterically funny for someone like me, who was taught about "a place for everything and everything in its place" when I was 3 years old. My mom was a neat freak anyway, but especially before she entertained - we would all be pressed into service and made to clean as though a white-glove inspection team was coming over. Most of the people on the shows readily admit they never, ever entertain, or even invite someone in off the front step if they drop by. The last time we were watching it, I told my husband "this is why I like to have parties - it forces me to clean the house!"

[Andy Lynes]

Eventually, I stop inviting people for (fancy) dinners at home when they never return the favour. I don't mean snacks, I mean three courses that take time and effort (and, yes, money). I don't expect necessarily the same level of food or favour in return, but I do expect something.

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I'm in complete agreement with you and have taken exactly the same position. I do feel slighted when I spend several days preparing a meal and don't get a return invitation. It's not about expecting payment, its about building relationships and its about good manners. The fact that I might enjoy cooking has very little to do with it.

[Varmint]

I think that most of my guests are quite intimidated by my cooking. When it comes to members of the eGullet Society, few would be intimidated or even overly impressed by what I put on the table. When it comes to the vast majority of my friends, however, I'm considered a top-notch cook. And they're afraid to cook for me.

It's funny how people get upset by lack of reciprocation. For me, the people who get invited the most are the ones who accept the most frequently!

[Bacchusrogue]

I sort of fall in between the 2 camps. I am ever aware of moochers and they fall off the list after 1 or 2 occasions.

On the other hand I have a few friends who could not reciprocate (tiny bachelor place, dirt poor) but are always graceful appreciative of my cooking and entertaining and will still have me to their place even if its just for tea and chat or buy me a beer at a pub occasionally.

I lvoe entertaining and dont really worry about reciprocating but moochers really bother me. I can usually discern between the two.

That said my place is in a state of CHAOS and i cant entertain until i fix that. But once I do, I'd love to have some egullteers over! Or visit some when im in the philly area as I often are (my wife is from kutztown and we are there all the time)

[Eden]

I think that most of my guests are quite intimidated by my cooking.  When it comes to members of the eGullet Society, few would be intimidated or even overly impressed by what I put on the table.  When it comes to the vast majority of my friends, however, I'm considered a top-notch cook.  And they're afraid to cook for me. 

It's funny how people get upset by lack of reciprocation.  For me, the people who get invited the most are the ones who accept the most frequently!

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I have a similar situation to Varmint. but what I've found works well to overcome that fear of "measuring up" is to find something they cook that I don't, and make a point of saying something like "Oh I adore Pot-Roast, and I don't know why but I just never make it" I have friends who are pretty low in the skills set when it comes to cooking, but they make good biscuits & gravy, which is just not part of my culinary repertoire, so when they feel like reciprocating for cassoulet or the like, they know to invite me over for biscuits and gravy (and cheetoh's since Bill won't let me have them at home )

Also direct 1:1 reciprocation is not a concern for me, I love cooking and hosting dinners, other people don't, so I don't expect to be invited to an equivalent meal for every one that I cook, but what I do expect is some sign of appreciation for the work I've put in, even if it's just some kind words. I have friends who live on really tight budgets and can barely make the rent, so they don't invite me over much, but they do make it immensely clear how much they enjoy both my company & my cooking, so I enjoy having them, and don't feel sponged off of at all. (I have moocher radar, I can tell )

[SuzySushi]

I love having friends over for dinner, throwing parties, and even having my daughter's friends over as houseguests. 1:1 reciprocation doesn't matter to me, nor does whether a friend ever has us over (some have been taking care of an invalid parent and not in a position to have guests).

The people who get crossed off my list, though, are the ones who accept an invitation and never extend the hand of friendship further... no "let's get together for a movie..." "let's go to the beach..." That is something I truly don't understand, and that makes me think maybe they were just in it for the free food.

[Curlz]

Love the topic, Busboy!

Depending upon whose info you use, I'm at the very early end of Gen Xers or the very late end of the Baby Boomers. Regardless, I never go to anyone's house for dinner or a party empty-handed; it's just the way I was raised.

I've always enjoyed entertaining and cooking. My friends? They enjoy EATING. For the last 5 years or so, I've lived in modest-sized 1BR apts, but I'll still have 8-10 for a dinner party. I've learned that when friends ask "What can I bring," I'll ask for things like ice (my freezer's too full for a bag!), soda (I don't drink it--why waste the space?), flowers for the table, etc. I do this because if I say "You really don't have to bring anything. REALLY!" I end up with mediocre wine, candy that sits in my cabinets for years, or a case of beer that will require that I have a few of them over again just to get it out of my house. I'll always ask for help with dishes, as I have no dishwasher! I have no shame, nor do they, and it works out really well for all of us!

My favorite recent example is one guy friend who can't cook, but he's a music FREAK. He arrived for my last party with a cd that he had made for me and said "Here. I don't bake, I burn."

I'll echo the "It's about the fun, the love, the laughing" when I entertain--that's why I do it--because I want to!

[petite tête de chou]

The real bottom line on this is: invite people because you want to entertain them and enjoy their company, that should be enough pleasure. If it happens they bring a gift or return the invitation consider it a bonus, but don't expect or want it - that only causes disappointment and/or resentment.

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Yup. I don't put conditions on my invites. You're here because you're my friend and it ends there.

[mizducky]

Y'know, I think this entertaining reciprocity thang is a very delicate balance ... and part of the equation that's only briefly touched on by the article is the fact that, to have a really successful party, you do need some good party-goers. Almost at the end, the article quotes one "inveterate party-giver" as saying "I don't look for reciprocation. I look for people who help me have a good party." I'm not 100% in agreement, but I do believe that guest life-energy is an essential party ingredient, one that no amount of killer cuisine can cover up the lack of. When people bring the gift of themselves--not just showing up physically, but also party-energy-wise, you could be eating delivery pizza and the party will still be a hit. So I do count showing up in a mood to party as a form of reciprocity.

Mind you, I do also appreciate some more tangible reciprocity. But personally, I really don't *want* it to be baldly tit-for-tat--various members of my family used to lay that trip on various other family members all the time, and all the angst engendered by that scorekeeping just made me want to scream and climb the walls. I prefer a more general warm-fuzzy sort of reciprocity, a sensation that I'm included in the social memory of the extended friendship group, in that whenever there is an event of any sort, people remember to think "oh, and we need to invite Miz Ducky, she's a helluva lotta fun." And that results from my having demonstrated over time, by being a lively guest as well as a lively host, that I *am* in fact a fun addition to a party.

Currently I have the CHAOS thing going on at my place, so no in-house entertaining right now. But I do try to at least offer to bring something with me when I go to somebody else's house, or at least do some reciprocal act, to keep on demonstrating that I'm that person you want to have at your party. For instance, I helped entertain the kids at a friend's recent Halloween party by playing quick-sketch artist. I think the parents were more blown-away grateful for that than by any plate of Halloween goodies I could have brought to share.

[Kevin72]

Yeah, I'm the gourmet cook in my circle of friends so reciprocal invites after our dinner parties are hard to come by, and we don't look for them anyways. We enjoy doing it. And yes, most friends are needlessly intimidated about their own cooking skills. The only thing that burns me up is people asking what the meal is before they say yes or no . . .

[Varmint]

YThe only thing that burns me up is people asking what the meal is before they say yes or no . . . 

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Stove Top Stuffing??? Mmm, I'll be right over!

[Safran]

... The only thing that burns me up is people asking what the meal is before they say yes or no . . . 

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Hi hi hi...had one couple in our circle who did that... so I simply gave them a list of things I knew I was not cooking.... The look on their faces when they sat down to dinner...never happened again.

A good dinner guest, in my opinion, is not one who reciprocates, but one who takes his role as guest to heart: chats, has fun at the table, doesn't hesitate to tell me BEFOREHAND if there's something he's allergic to or doesn't like, and doesn't mind hanging around my kitchen and chatting with me when I'm cooking. I also LOVE when guests are in no hurry to get up from the table. These "long into the evening" chats when the Larousse Gastronomique or the "On Food and Cooking" have to be brought down from the bookcase because of some heated discussion...the dishes ALWAYS stay where they are until the guests have gone. It's a rule in our house.

What gets me is when they're late, always late and sometimes very late...but this was addressed in another thread.

[Octaveman]

I was raised by my mother and by my grandparent's and boy did they love to entertain. I learned many things about being a host and a what a propper guest was supposed to do through them and I can tell you one thing, very few of my "friends" are what I would call propper guests.

My wife and I used to have this one friend over for dinner quite often and he would not only offer to bring over some diet coke or beer but he would also help out with the dishes. He'd stay for several hours and we'd talk or watch movies to just hang out. There was no expectation of recripocation because he was poor and he was kind enough to offer to bring something over for all of us to enjoy. Then he met his current wife. A person that is so anti-everything that she's turned him into the worst guest I've ever had. And yes, it's all her doing and he is allowing this to happen because he's married to her for pete's sake and he has to keep the home fire happily burning. <slow down, Bob...breath deep> I kept on making the dinner invites after they started dating and into their eventual marriage, but his pre-offers started dropping off and the dishes gradually piled up. I eventually stopped inviting them over and now they invite themselves over for dinner or sushi. I do all the cooking or we all make sushi but the kitchen looks like a cyclone hit it. Out the door they go when they've had their fill leaving a huge mess and leaving the crap diet Shasta they bring for themselves. They bring nothing as a gesture of kindness nor do they do anything in kindness to help with the mess they were instrumental in creating. They did babysit one night for us and cooked themselves dinner while we were gone. When we got home, the kitchen was an absolute mess from their adventure around my kitchen. I was #$%&ing pissed. I told my wife this is the last time. I brought it up with my friend and he told me to chill out and brought up those times in the past where he helped to clean the kitchen. Give me a @$#%& break. I've had it. <there I go again...breath IN-out-IN-out>

Thankfully, we have other friends and they either recriprocate or offer to babysit or to join them for coffee or drinks of which the first round is on them. One friend told me they were a bit intimidated to cook for me but I said not to worry about that and that it was just enjoyable to not have the respnsibility of running around getting dinner on the table. BBQ'd chicken sandwiches is good for me. Acutally, bbq'd anything is good for me.

I think that a propper guest should always extend an offer of some kind to show appreciation. Whether or not I accept the offer is a different story as I often times believe that the offer is more appreciated than what they are offering. If they bring something as a token then I'm always greatful for it. I think it's just proper to acknowledge the effort in some form or another. People can always get together over a cup of coffee to spend time with one another. If something more is involved, a small gift (or other) of some sort shows appreciation and recognition for the hard work the host has done for the evening. It's just what I do so naturally I think it's the way I'd like to be treated.

When I'm a guest if the host told me they didn't need anything I've made a point to bring something like wine, a small NY cheesecake, flowers, a decorated Christmas tree complete with lights, potted plant of some kind, Godiva chocolate covered strawberries, Godiva truffles or coffee just to name a few things. And I reciprocate dinner in addition to all this. Quite often I've even sent a thank you note in the mail thanking them for a great dinner and a fun time. It's just the way I am. I'm very respectful and appreciative of the extra work that people go through to put on dinner and know that if they just wanted to hang out they didn't have to go to all that trouble to do so. So I thank them for their efforts beyond a simple thank you.

Cheers,

Bob

Edited May 13, 2005 by Octaveman (log)

[Luckylies]

I'm a generally brokeish youngish showoff. Come and eat my food and I will be happy. I expect nothing else at all. Wine, booze, drugs (only offer to other guests after dinner!) etc are always appreciated, but not neccesary. My friends an dI would sit and shoot the shit anyway why not over some lovingly prepared goodies? If the food stinks who cares? I just want to be around the people I love...as for strangers and people I have just met:

show up on time

thank me

leave when I say "whew! look at the time..."

I also love wine and gifts but... not required.

The standards to which I hold myself are much higher. I always bring something, always offer to help with whatever, and I try to bring flowers. thank you's are a must. I'm not tit for tat, but If I like people it's generally assured that they will be over sooner or later. I don't want friends that are a chore...

[jgarner53]

Question -- Are their children included in the invites?

Usually, no. My husband and I do not have children, and our house is not equipped or prepared for children, and for dinner, I don't want to have my conversation interrupted by the kids every 10 seconds (either them asking a question or mom or dad having to intervene to keep the child out of trouble). These friends do have local family who babysit frequently, so it's not always the case of having to pay for a sitter; it's merely a matter of convenience to them to have us over.

[Susan G]

Whew! I'm so glad to hear I'm not the only one who has CHAOS!

What maks it particularly painful is that in my pre-marital domicile, I had guests for dinner once or twice a week, and it was all about hanging out around the table, sharing food, good scotch and enjoying the company. My circle of friends (most were neighbors too) were always in each other's houses, so tit-for-tat was so out the window!

Gotta clean. It's more than a dent in my social life: It's a hole in my psyche.

(Where in the Yellow Pages can you find industrial-sized trash bins?)

[WHT]

Call me old-fashioned, even though I too am officially a Gen X'er

I find the above idea repulsive. It's as if you expect people to pay for coming to your house for dinner.

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Only for very informal occasions like bar-B-Qs’ and alike would a small token not be in order. Most etiquette books do suggest a modest “hostess” (Dated term.) of flowers, win or sweets to show ones appreciation in being invited. This also is intended to remove any further obligation of reciprocation on the part of the guest. Vanderbilt and Post are rather clear on this through out there books and revisions. They also mention that frequent dinning partners need not bring gifts. They are to be tasteful gifts for later enjoyment not admission tickets or part of the meal.

While I have heard people speak of selecting wedding gifts based on the perceived cost of the reception I have yet to find any mention of it in any etiquette guide. I am not sure how or when this started but it would be interesting to find out.

[WHT]

YThe only thing that burns me up is people asking what the meal is before they say yes or no . . . 

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Stove Top Stuffing??? Mmm, I'll be right over!

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My first wife’s’ parents had been invited to our house for dinner. Nothing fancy roast beef, new potatoes and fresh green beans sautéed in EVOO. I did use the good china and silver for the meal and the table setting did look nice. I had just been promoted to manager in a retail chain and most of my pay came in the form of month end and year-end bonuses and paychecks were a little tight.

Half way through the meal her father started to make comments on the extravagances of the meal. This was the late 80’s and at that point a pack of Oscar Mayer franks was about $4.00, roast on sale was under $3.00 a pound by a slight bit. So I broke it down in terms of cost. After that he never again questioned anything that I served. Over the short term of the marriage the situation was treated as an in-joke. But looking back on it it was one of the gravest insults ever issued.

Since that point I have never commented on food in a friend or acquaintances home. I reserve that right for when I am paying the tab eating out. As some of you have mentioned it should be about the party and the people finding enjoyment in one another’s company. Not some demented game where scores are kept and points awarded based on perceived value. Yes we can wax poetic about the poor friend that would give us the clothing the wear to the rich person who putting out a bag of snaky puffs is seen as being a host. Like many other areas of life we ultimately stay with the people we enjoy the most.

[maggiethecat]

I keep it simple I guess: I only invite people I love who love me back.

With my beloved eGulls, I know that I will be so inundated with fine wines, flowers, gorgeous cheeses and large hunks of meat that the leftovers amount to throwing myself a fundraiser. When I'm invited to dinner with them, I try the best I can, and if I fall short, they are too sweet to say a thing, and we have an evening which, to loosely paraphrase NeroW, is proof that the world is good, and there is hope.

With non-eG friends and in-laws: They love me, so they'll put up with my Weird Food and be completely comfortable serving their spiral ham, potato salad or grilled sausages, because they know I'll tuck in. My friend Clive (Mr. Potato Salad) always keeps a bottle of Campari in his bar especially for me. It sounds sappy, but Clive and his wife Sharon bought a "Friendship Basket" which we exchange back and forth. I take them dessert and a plant. When they come to my house, there's a couple of bottles of wine and a bunch of flowers. We'll see them on Memorial Day weekend, and I think the basket will contain a bottle of Madiera and a Lane Cake.

[racheld]

BTDT to EVERYTHING above, I think. Grateful guests, greedy slobs, lovely evenings, CHAOS personified, marvelous gifts of food and wine and flowers, painstaking creation of a perfect meal, pizza from the box, being charming and entertaining and helpful and oh, so, glad to be present, acceptance of hospitality as a RIGHT rather than an honor conferred and accepted, "guests" who continue to invite themselves and make free with your home and its comforts without reciprocation, recompense, or gratitude.

But still we press on. Recompense is in the doing, the creating, the chatting across the table, leaning in for one more pour of that glorious wine, laughing with friends whose voices are music.

Like the bumpersticker says: I'll stop entertaining when they pry the spatula from my cold dead hand.

And WHT: Where might one purchase a bag of snaky puffs?

[purplewiz]

The only thing that burns me up is people asking what the meal is before they say yes or no . . . 

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This is the main reason I almost never entertain anymore. While I am willing to work with dietary restrictions, I am not a short order cook. When I do have people over, I've started to phrase my invitations as "I'm making my yearly onion soup feed on Saturday, would you like to join us?".

When it comes to reciprocation, I'm very flexible. Not everyone is in the same position with respect to finances instead of time, but there are always creative ways around all that. Friends of ours throw a heck of a party every year, but because of their schedules they're not easily able to make it down here for dinner, so sometime during the year we usually host them at a restaurant about half way between us (about an hour from each). It works for all of us, and someday when their lives slow down I'll be happy to reciprocate more traditionally again.

Heck, I'd be happy to be invited over for a cup of tea and a couple of Girl Scout cookies.

It's not really tit for tat, it's just that it's nice to know that your company is desired as a guest, not only as a host.

Marcia.

[*Deborah*]

It's not really tit for tat, it's just that it's nice to know that your company is desired as a guest, not only as a host.

Marcia.

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That's exactly it. I'm very much of a giver, and I have friends who it's great to go *out* to dinner with them, or drinks, but I don't invite them over for a special meal anymore as they have never invited me for one (and they do have them).

[Chris Amirault]

I keep it simple I guess: I only invite people I love who love me back.

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Ditto that, Maggie. Here are our regular dinner guests: a dear friend, basically a family member, who doesn't cook (she will, on rare occasions, heat or combine items [sour cream and Lipton onion soup mix, say], but cook? never); an eight-year-old next door neighbor who eats everything (and who thus has a great and beneficial influence on her best friend, our seven year old daughter); a couple of married pals with an infant who oooh and ahhh about everything I make. We love them all, cook for them regularly, and have eaten only a few meals cooked at their homes (all prepared by that couple).

What's more, reciprocity has its limits. Truth be told, I'm such a damned picky food snob that I'd rather cook meals in my kitchen and serve them anyway. Sick, yes, but gets me out of this tit-for-tat business.

[WHT]

And WHT:    Where might one purchase a bag of snaky puffs?   

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From the makers of Warmflat Beer; the friendly folks at Yoyodyne In Browns Mills NJ introduce Snaky Puffs. The snack flavored Puffs that crunch when you bite them. Coming to the gift shop of your local TGI McFunsters.