Ranges/Cooktops/Ovens

[Veena]

Has anyone used Bosch ovens? I am considering the 24- and 27-inch single wall ovens in their 500 and 300 series, but was wondering about performance and reliability of Bosch ovens in general.

Veena

[sng sling]

Hi

I need recommendations for oven brands. I’m in need of a new wall oven. My old oven, an ariston, is now dying and I require a replacement. I’m eyeing a Miele but its price is rather .. on the steep end. Do you guys know of any? i have space for one that's about 60cm, thanks. 

I'm also in singapore.. which might limit my brand options.

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When we lived in Singapore, we had a single Miele oven in our apartment (Ardmore Park). It was so good, that when we moved back to the USA, we spent an embarrassing amount of money to install a double cavity Miele convection oven. Other than the pain of the initial price, we love it. Gives us restaurant quality grillng (broiler) for fish, and is very quick to preheat.

[baroness]

Has anyone used Bosch ovens?  I am considering the 24- and 27-inch single wall ovens in their 500 and 300 series, but was wondering about performance and reliability of Bosch ovens in general. 

Veena

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I've had a Bosch range for several years and am very happy with its performance - including the oven.

[cbread]

I have a single Bosch convection wall oven. The performance of everything is excellent with the glaring exception of the broil which is rotten. If the broiler were even average, I'd sing it's praises, but the broil is useless. So weak I just don't bother. I bought a countertop toaster oven to get some broil power.

[Veena]

Cbread, could you post the model number of your Bosch?

Veena

[cbread]

Veena,

As best I can tell, it's a Bosch Wall Oven HBN 445A UC or it's a HBL 445A UC. The uninformative brochure lists 21 model numbers and I was able to narrow it down to two.

[elfin]

The "Oven Issue" is holding up any renovations. I would love a double wall electric oven-the self clean operation is the motivation factor. Old house/ crappy electrical prevents electric ovens so I am stuck with a gas oven. Do the new ones really have a decent self clean option? I did not think that the gas oven temp could get high enough to zap the crud off clean. Does anyone know of any worthy gas wall oven? I do like the broil function with gas better-as close to a salamander as one can get in residential kitchen.

[Robert Jueneman]

It's been about 10 years since we remodeled the kitchen in our house in Provo, UT and I still miss it here in California.

The star of the show was a big Viking gas cooktop in the center island, with the 24" griddle and four burners, with a huge range hood overhead -- rounded edges, not Viking -- maybe Thermador?? It had a huge 12" air duct, and a 24" fan mounted on the outside of the house. The grease traps were removable, and could be put in the dishwasher. I absolutely loved the range and griddle -- no problems at all. The grills could be dropped in the dishwasher, and the slide-out drawer caught all of the spills before they got baked on. 110% pleased, no, make that 120%.

Two stacked Gaggenau electric wall ovens with pizza stone and rotisserie -- also 110%. After my mother singed her eyebrows with an explosion back in the '50's, I don't think I ever want a gas oven!

The original cooktop (on the opposite side of the island from the sink???) I ripped out and replaced with a glass one -- I still HATE glass, after three of them -- but it gave me four more burners. There was a built-in microwave (good) with an integrated range hood (completely useless) over that cooktop.

The dishwasher was a Bosch, and it broke a couple of times -- not so good.

The side-by-side refrigerator/freezer wasn't big enough to hold all of the "refrigerate after opening" bottles and jars that seem to accumulate. Ideally, refrigerators should be about 9 inches deep, and about a mile wide. I certainly will never buy another LG refrigerator -- the one I have now has shelves that bow too much, and the water filter sprang a leak and ruined the carpet in the next room.

I'm presently designing a house I hope to build in a year or so, and I plan to incorporate those lessons, plus some new ones:

1. There has to be room for at least two and perhaps three commercial 10 liter rice cookers and PID controllers for cooking sous vide. I'm not convinced the Poly-Science circulators are worth the extra money and space, but if I win the lottery, I suppose I could be persuaded. Because I don't relish hauling 10 liters of water around, I need a sink nearby so I can drain and refill them periodically, using a hose. An overhead shelf would hold the PID controllers, and separate 20-amp circuits for each cooker is essential. In fact, a separate electrical sub-panel just for the kitchen would be a nice idea.

2. In addition to the griddle and four burners, one or two of which must support a nice simmer, I also want a very high-heat commercial-grade wok ring and burner -- maybe 24,000 BTU? A built-in deep fat fryer would also be nice.

3. This house is going to be in the Sangre de Christo mountains of Colorado, at 8000 feet, and an outdoor barbeque isn't going to be practical for three months of the year -- maybe more. An indoor grill would be very nice. Maybe it could be combined with a wood-fired pizza oven, as long as I'm day-dreaming.

4. A salamander, and a warming tray for dishes, would also be very nice to have.

5. A commercial-grade rubber floor matt is worth thinking about, with a built-in floor drain. A hot-water or steam hose would also be nice, for clean-up. No wood or marble, this time around!

6. A spare bedroom, in case Alice Waters, Thomas Keller, or Alain Ducasse decide to stop by to go elk hunting. Douglas Baldwin, you are closer, and the door will always be open!

Bob

Edited May 1, 2009 by Robert Jueneman (log)

[VivreManger]

The house we are planning to buy has a new Maytag electric range with a convection oven and a glass (UGH!!) cooktop over conventional coil elements.

At this point we are are considering a number of options, but the most likely is keeping the range as is, but adding a 4 or 5 burner natural gas cook top next to it. I think there is enough space for both. The glass cooktop would then become working counter space most of the time and cooking space some of the time.

What experience and recommendations do you have for high quality gas cooktops? I am willing to consider something in the $1,000 price range. Any strong feelings?

Since the existing glass top will probably be adequate for simmering purposes, the main point of the gas top will be quick high heat cooking.

Any strong feelings about DCA, Thermador, Viking etc.?

Which of them have a five-burner 30" cook top?

I do a lot of high temperature wok and cast-iron pan cooking, so I definitely need something that can deliver a powerful blast of heat. The induction alternative will disable a big part of the cookware I enjoy using.

In the course of adding the cook-top we will also have to add powerful hood, probably in the 600 cfm range, but that is for another thread.

[Beanie]

Check out Caldera. Small Vermont company. 5 burner comes in 30 and 36 inches. Under $900. More powerful than the others. See gardenweb forum for reviews. I have no connection to the manufacturer and no experience using this appliance but was impressed by the reviews when I researched this topic a few years ago. Unfortunately, my kitchen renovations plans changed and I never purchased it.

[VivreManger]

Here is the Caldera discussion:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/...1138155637.html

A.J. Madison has it for about $800. As it happens, their factory is located an easy few hours drive from where I live.

As I recall you, Beanie, may have posted about the company in another thread. I am interested in learning more from someone who has cooked on it.

TWO Additional Points.

AJ Madison has gotten a lot of bad internet reviews for their products and customer service.

Is Caldera still in business? I found two numbers for them on the web, (800) 725-7711 and (802) 253-3008. Neither worked. It may be too good to be true.

Edited May 28, 2009 by VivreManger (log)

[Dave the Cook]

Assuming Caldera is still in business, the product looks worth closer examination. I'm not thrilled about the burner layout, especially on the 30-inch. The center rear burner appears to be the high-output one. Assuming that's where you'd use a wok or other large pot, using that burner will block the other two on the back. Make sure you're going to be comfortable with that arrangement. Personally, I'd rather have four usable burners all the time, but that's the way I cook.

In the $1000 range, you don't have too many other options. GE Monogram has a unit, but it seems underpowered for your purposes. For a few hundred more, you can get into a 30-inch KitchenAid (with a 17 KBTU burner) or a Thermador. Everything else (BlueStar, DCS, Viking, etc.) is upwards of $2000.

[VivreManger]

The burner arrangement is not ideal, but having the hot spot in the middle does mean that spilling and splattering is less likely to land on the counter. Since I would still have access to the four burners on the glass top, the temporary loss of the back two burners is not as crucial.

On the other hand, I have been trying to learn if Caldera is still in business. And if it is still in existence, it seems no longer to be in Stowe, VT. So far none of those Stowe-Waterbury phone numbers work.

It may still be possible to buy the top, but it is not clear that there is now any manufacturer to back it up.

Edited to add:

Just checked with a dealer who did not have all the information, but he thought the company had been sold to another manufacturer, perhaps in New York. He believed that all warranties were still being honored.

Edited May 28, 2009 by VivreManger (log)

[VivreManger]

I just got off the phone with a dealer who told me that EuroChef in New York City now distributes (and manufactures??) them.

Any experience with EuroChef?

[Beanie]

I just got off the phone with a dealer who told me that EuroChef in New York City now distributes (and manufactures??) them.

Any experience with EuroChef?

←

No experience with EuroChef, but here's their contact info. There's not much information, but the Caldera link will bring you to a different website than the one I posted previously. I hadn't realized the company was no longer in Vermont. I have a feeling that the Vermont location couldn't handle the distribution and customer service end of the business and made a deal with Eurochef to distribute, sell parts, etc. As I mentioned before, I've never used the cooktop but was impressed with the excellent reviews and the price point. Let us know if you learn more about them.

[Robert Jueneman]

Memorial Day weekend, we went shopping at a large appliance store in San Jose, to look at ga (propane) cooktop and ovens.

I remain most impressed by Viking, which I had and loved in a previous house. Yes, they are more expensive than some others, but they are made here in the US (in Mississippi, of all places), and parts and service should be readily available. They are revising the look slightly to add metal knobs rather than the current black plastic.

The one I want is a 60" unit with four burners and a 24" cast iron griddle in the middle, which can be turned down to a nice simmer with the largest pot I own, for making onion soup, etc.

I don't see the additional value of a Wolf unit, for the extra cost.

Gaggenau makes a nice built-in high-output wok burner, but you can probably pick up a portable unit at a store that specializes in Chinese restaurants for a whole lot less, and only connect it when you need it.

I do like the Gaggenau electric oven, particularly the one with the built-in rotisserie and an electrically heated pizza or bread stone. I also like the big 36" Viking gas oven, which has the equivalent of a salamander with a two-burner broiler.

[VivreManger]

Any recommendations for a single oven to go below a gas cooktop? The interior should be as wide as possible, but fit within a 30" space. It could be either gas or electric, but probably would be electric. It should be self-cleaning. Convection would be an advantage. Reliability is an absolute. We do some baking, a lot of roasting, and could certainly use the speed of the convection oven.

We want to keep electronic controls to a minimum, preferring manual controls. Food warmer is not essential. Multiple and flexible racks are good. It is not clear that a heating element directly connected to the convection fan is necessarily good, but there should be an element on top an one on the bottom, possibly below the inner metal frame. A food warmer is clearly not needed.

Ideally the price should be less than $1,000, but if the quality truly justifies it, we could go higher.

Edited June 21, 2009 by VivreManger (log)

[rgruby]

Thermador anyone? There doesn't seem to be much (recent) talk of them here. A quick google search has found a lot of reliability problems/lack of service, but I don't know how much weight I should give to that. I don't think the model I'm looking at (PRD304EH) is true convection (if it is convection at all) and the website doesn't want to tell me the max BTU level of the burners.

Also looking at Bluestar (do I want/need that much firepower going to the burners? But a couple of other points - given the size of the gas line going to the range, does it even matter - I have a suspicion that the size of a typical residential gas line may make the additional BTUs pretty much a non-issue. Does anybody know? Second, restaurants need the extra BTUs mostly to get the pans hot fast - and not for cooking so much. (Wok cooking and heating large stockpots are exceptions). My crappy electric burners get oil to smoking no problem. How often do I want/need anything more than that. Not often.

So I'm wondering if the highest output burner on the GE profile I was also looking at would meet my needs. I don't do all that much wok cooking (well none now on the current electric top), but would like to be able to bring 24 L of liquid to a boil (homebrewing). If the 16,000 BTU burner will do that I wouldn't mind saving a couple grand over the Thermador and Bluestar.

Thanks,

Geoff

[Raoul Duke]

Memorial Day weekend, we went shopping at a large appliance store in San Jose, to look at ga (propane) cooktop and ovens.

I remain most impressed by Viking, which I had and loved in a previous house.  Yes, they are more expensive than some others, but they are made here in the US (in Mississippi, of all places), and parts and service should be readily available.  They are revising the look slightly to add metal knobs rather than the current black plastic.

The one I want is a 60" unit with four burners and a 24" cast iron griddle in the middle, which can be turned down to a nice simmer with the largest pot I own, for making onion soup, etc.

I don't see the additional value of a Wolf unit, for the extra cost.

Gaggenau makes a nice built-in high-output wok burner, but you can probably pick up a portable unit at a store that specializes in Chinese restaurants for a whole lot less, and only connect it when you need it.

I do like the Gaggenau electric oven, particularly the one with the built-in rotisserie and an electrically heated pizza or bread stone.  I also like the big 36" Viking gas oven, which has the equivalent of a salamander with a two-burner broiler.

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Here's my Viking experience. Bought new 6 years ago a 6 burner, griddle & grill w/double convection ovens. Unit came w/a cracked manifold and leaked gas, I'll give that one to the shipper. Several manufacturin defects, incomplete spot welds, bent oven rack. Late last year I had to replace the igniter on one oven that had <150 firings. What put a burr up under my saddle was that repeated, REPEATED, communication w/Viking resulted in no response from them to address the issues. Emails and letters went unanswered. Now a local service man tells me they quit selling them because of all the "issues" with them. I can understand that. My 2 cents, look for something more reliable. Oh yea, the simmer setting blows.

[VivreManger]

After going through various options in our kitchen to be (familiar to those who have been following this thread), we are considering yet another option:

dcs 30 inch dual fuel stove rdt-305

Any experience with this unit? How effective is the simmer setting? The center burner seems to be set lower at a lower level than the remaining four burners. Does that in any way overcome the inherent problem of it being sealed?

I like the power of the five burner cook-top and my wife would like the fact that the oven is a self-cleaning electric.

I do not like the fact that the burners are sealed, but there seems to be no cook-top that offers both sealed and unsealed. Unsealed strikes me as more effective for wok-cooking than offering a wok ring. The only advantage of sealing the burner is cleaning, as far as I can imagine.

Blue Star is more powerful, but my wife won't go for anything that is not self-cleaning.

There is a lot of peculiar jargon in this business. Why is a stove called a range? What is inherently slide-in or free-standing about one stove as opposed to another? Which has front controls and which has back controls?

[LindaK]

Also looking at Bluestar (do I want/need that much firepower going to the burners? But a couple of other points - given the size of the gas line going to the range, does it even matter - I have a suspicion that the size of a typical residential gas line may make the additional BTUs pretty much a non-issue. Does anybody know? Second, restaurants need the extra BTUs mostly to get the pans hot fast - and not for cooking so much. (Wok cooking and heating large stockpots are exceptions). My crappy electric burners get oil to smoking no problem. How often do I want/need anything more than that. Not often.

I have a Bluestar 36" range, which I love. You raise two good points for anyone considering one:

- gas line size. When my GC and plumber first read the installation instructions calling for the 1" gas supply line, they were sure it was an error--that's a lot of gas and larger than standard for residential appliances. They called the Bluestar service department, which confirmed the specification. Here's how my plumber explained it to me: that much gas supply is required if you have ALL the burners plus the oven running simultaneously at full capacity. For those who don't know, the six burners on a 36" Bluestar are: 2 x 22K BTU, 3 x 15K BTU, and a simmer burner. The infrared broiler is 1850 F. It kicks out a lot of heat.

Since I was doing a down-to-the studs renovation, the gas line size wasn't a big deal. If I was adding a Bluestar to an existing kitchen and didn't want the expense and hassle of upgrading the plumbing, it means that you wouldn't get full power if you had everything running full steam. I don't know about you, but this wouldn't be an issue for me except for rare occasions. For most day-to-day cooking you'd get full burner output no problem.

- As for your question about whether you really need all that power, that depends on your style of cooking as well as your budget. I made many great meals on my crappy old gas stove, who knows what its BTU output was. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don't do more wok cooking, which would really take advantage of those burners. Still, one become addicted very quickly to the quick responsiveness of having that kind of heat no matter your style of cooking.

Edited July 14, 2009 by LindaK (log)

[VivreManger]

I have added the Capital Precision to the mix that had previously included the DCS RDT-305.

Number and Specs for the Capital are:

GSCR305 • 30" Gas w/ Four Burners + Integrated Wok, Self-Clean Oven with rotisserie.

The best price I have seen on-line is $4845 (list is $6292).

from

Wholesale Restaurant Supply

3814 Charlotte Avenue

Nashville, TN 37209

Anyone have any dealing with them?

The Capital is a bit more expensive than the DCS model I am considering. The main advantage is that it has a built-in wok burner at 25,000 btu and the four other burners can reach 19,000. In addition it has a rotisserie feature.

Anyone know this range?

[cupcake]

My efforts to select a range and hood continue.... I am very seriously considering the DCS 30" all gas range, RGT-305SSN.

Does anyone have any thoughts re how challenging it is to clean the top? It's brushed and apparently made of some sort of aluminum alloy (per the DCS rep, who unsurprisingly says it's a piece of cake to clean). My husband very graciously leaves me to cook and does all the clean-up, and I will feel really guilty if he ends up whipping out the barkeeper's friend (or whatever's recommended) constantly. I've never used anything that did not have a porcelainized top.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Cynthia

[ChefCrash]

My efforts to select a range and hood continue....  I am very seriously considering the DCS 30" all gas range, RGT-305SSN.

Does anyone have any thoughts re how challenging it is to clean the top?  It's brushed and apparently made of some sort of aluminum alloy (per the DCS rep, who unsurprisingly says it's a piece of cake to clean).  My husband very graciously leaves me to cook and does all the clean-up, and I will feel really guilty if he ends up whipping out the barkeeper's friend (or whatever's recommended) constantly.  I've never used anything that did not have a porcelainized top.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

Cynthia

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I would not go (again) with a cook top that has a stainless or light colored surface under the grates. Any kind of cooking will require that you remove the grates to clean after every meal. The surface eventually gets scratched and discolored. I'd go with one that has a black finish or better, a cast iron surface.

If you haven't yet, check out these videos of the Blue Star brand.

[v. gautam]

VM,

With respect to wok cooking, a high wattage induction cooktop, be it flat or wok-shaped, like the two Cooktek models http://www.cooktek.com/products/ApogeeFS_1HOBspecs_E.pdf

3.5kW 220V, 1.8kW 110V drop-in/portable are sufficiently powerful for all domestic wok cooking in 14 inch woks. Please do not get carried away by the absurd mystique of wok hei. I have cooked professionally for years, and that gimmick is for the restaurant, not for the home.

The induction surface does not cause as great a temperature drop in wok cooking, and is most satisfactory, not pumping in a lot of waste heat into your home. Almost 85-90% of the electrical energy is converted to heat energy for cooking, where not more than a third of the gas energy is. You can create a drop-in slot, and move the rugged unit out or take it to catering events. Much safer too, without open flames. Extremely responsive, hair trigger. The high wattage is c. $1500. If you have a good ordinary range besides, you may have sufficient firepower for most purposes.

The flat-top induction single hob is dual purpose. It services flat-bottomed carbon-steel woks, Demeyere footed woks [very good], and conventional cookware. As such, it may be more useful than the dedicated induction wok shape.

A high quality 2 wok, all-SS steel range from Chinatown suppliers is about $500!! Not $ Five thousand but hundred. These are narrow, free-standing units, very convenient for the home cook. Whether they will be forthcoming with this price for you, that I cannot say.