Dissing Italy on The French Board

[chefzadi]

Although I appreciate Mr Busboy's sense of humour. I have to add that most French people really like Italian food. It's one the most popular "ethnic" foods is France and of course there is the part of France that borders Italy. In fact I think that Italian food is second only to couscous in popularity. But then again Algerian couscous is so common in France that in a poll a few years backs when French citizens what there favorite dish is they replied, "couscous." So it's not even a foreign food anymore. Neither is Italian, we enjoy it immensely. I ate my way through Milan years ago.

[emmapeel]

I find this thread very interesting because it has not only taught me so much about food and cuisine, but has also helped my gain insight into the society at eGullet. I found the thread Osterie d'Italia by Slow Food, or escaping from the Michelin man fascinating, and enjoyed reading it because there was so much great writing, especially by Bill Klapp, Craig Camp and others, but I don't see them writing much anymore. I don't want to stick my foot in my mouth, so if this subject is taboo, just say so.

Otherwise, I love Italian cuisine, and I love French cuisine and don't understand how they can be compared. I admit, I didn't like it when ideas were posed such as Italian food will never evolve. It may be true, but I've wept over food in both Italy and France, and would probably weep over some dish in India and Indonesia. As long as chefs can keep me sobbing, they are artists.

So, is the question really about which cuisine is better, or who is creating something new? In the recent Oats thread Jensen just made oatmeal a side dish and named it Avenotto, so does North America finally make it to the temple table? (Just joking, but I think you get my drift.)

Ivan's French Epiphany is also interesting. I'm not a food historian so I will not attempt to discount it, but are you telling me before the French, people only ate to survive? I doubt it. They had tastebuds. But the post is so good that I made Oeufs dur Mayonnaise for dinner and it was fantastic. The Italians also model simplicity in their dishes, and with equally astonishing results. The first time I had Ravioli in Butter & Sage in Firenze, I thought I'd die. If honoring the soul of the dish is a French invention, let them have it and thank them. But if honoring the soul of a dish was only discovered by the French (much like Columbus discovering America with the Natives living here), then let's not attribute elevation of cuisine to them. If that is the case, they get a salute.

[Boris_A]

One problems with the perception of Italian cuisine could be a cognitive dissonance: why on earth can so simply pepared homestyle food be so good, even great and delicious? (at least, for a western palate).

The perception of French cuisine poses no such challenge: Haute cuisine, chi-chi, complicated techniques, great results.

And whenever you find a cognitive dissonance, you don't need to wait a long time until impressive lines of arguments are built up to talk it away.

Edited March 19, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[fiftydollars]

This argument is just plain ridiculous... everybody knows Mexican food is the world's undisputed king of all cuisines.

[origamicrane]

This argument is just plain ridiculous... everybody knows Mexican food is the world's undisputed king of all cuisines.

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nah the world cusine is chinese

more people on the world eating it chinese then any other cusine

followed closely by indian. hahaha

[MobyP]

"English cuisine" is known as a contradiction in terms.

Should I report this to the UK forum as you reported the French thread here in the Italian corner of egullet?

The true tragedy is that they'd probably agree with you. They'd be wrong, but they'd still agree with you.

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As an Englishman, I'd like to point out that I disagree with myself at least half the time, with Adam Balic almost never, and with Bux almost always.

Italian epiphany: a small roadside truckstop in the mountains outside Parma - La Mama in the kitchen hand rolling each batch of tortelli as we ordered them - a bliss unlike any other.

French Epiphany: A dish of morels plucked out of the ground that morning, sautéed in foie gras fat - a bliss unlike any other.

Edited March 19, 2005 by MobyP (log)

[fiftydollars]

This argument is just plain ridiculous... everybody knows Mexican food is the world's undisputed king of all cuisines.

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nah the world cusine is chinese

more people on the world eating it chinese then any other cusine

followed closely by indian. hahaha

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In the US, Mexican food is rapidly gaining ground on Chinese food and I would argue that it is already far ahead of Indian cuisine by almost any conceivable objective measure. To quote a now popular saying, "Rabbits are now reproducing like Mexican restaurants."

So as you can see, through my clearly relevant example, quote, and rigorous application of logic, that the spread of Mexican food dominance worldwide is an inevitability.

Many people in the Guangdong Province of China, to quote a pertinent example from my research, are not eating Mexican food more regularly because they lack an available market for tacos, tortillas, et al. Perhaps most tragically, many of China's people remain unaware of their strong predilection for Mexican food. It's really very sad, but luckily, as I argued earlier, no human border is impermeable to Mexicans, or our food.

...it's coming.

Edited March 19, 2005 by fiftydollars (log)

[Pan]

In the US, Mexican food is rapidly gaining ground on Chinese food and I would argue that it is already far ahead of Indian cuisine by almost any conceivable objective measure. To quote a now popular saying, "Rabbits are now reproducing like Mexican restaurants."

So as you can see, through my clearly relevant example, quote, and rigorous application of logic, that the spread of Mexican food dominance worldwide is an inevitability.[...]

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Of course. Anything that succeeds in the US is bound to take over the entire world.

[origamicrane]

OK as a non european i think i might be able to arbitrate a bit

just to qualify myself I am a british born Chinese who like all of us here is a little food obsessed i have been to France and Italy several times and cook french and italian food amongst other things.

So here are my perceptions as a brit.

I said in the French forum, I feel that French food has an air of snobbery about it. Italian food doesn't have this feel, instead italian food i feel has a spontaneous passion instead.

The main reason for this is that French food always seems to be served in a formal environment where as italian food is for a gathering of friends and family.

Yes i know there is formal and informal dishes in both cusines but its the image that has been exported to other countries that is what drives global perceptions of their cusine.

[fiftydollars]

In the US, Mexican food is rapidly gaining ground on Chinese food and I would argue that it is already far ahead of Indian cuisine by almost any conceivable objective measure. To quote a now popular saying, "Rabbits are now reproducing like Mexican restaurants."

So as you can see, through my clearly relevant example, quote, and rigorous application of logic, that the spread of Mexican food dominance worldwide is an inevitability.[...]

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Of course. Anything that succeeds in the US is bound to take over the entire world.

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Quite naturally...

...and we are very glad that you see our side of things. It will facilitate assimilation.

Your code name is Pan Dulce.

[albiston]

Please note: the discussion on cookbooks introducing to Italian cooking has been split to a new topic.

[Bill Klapp]

Bravo, cinghiale, for dredging up the debate of a few years ago! It was my first foray on eGullet, and the absurdity of a guy who is allergic to pasta (?????) coming on the Italy board for the express purpose of trashing Italian food was more than I could stand.

[bleudauvergne]

My first epiphany was Chinese. Over mustard greens.

[Bux]

But Adam, you don't even qualify as a local, nor does FaustianBargain unless I'm mistaken. What does it say about perception if the local food is best appreciated by expats and visiting students? This thread will quickly take on an international general flavor in spite of Busboy's best attempts to start a local food fight between EU neighbors. (Okay, against my resolutions not to rely on smilies, consider one inserted here.)

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Does 'indefinate leave to stay' count?

I get the impression with British food that like an iceberg it is present and powerful, but the interesting bits are mostly unseen.

A good place to start maybe this book. British Food

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I don't know about indefinite leave. In the UK? In Scotland specifically? I know. In Maine, (the northeastern most state in the US, it's something your grandson could use to defend himself against the charge he's not from around here. It is however not so unusual to think of people who weren't born in the same house as their grandfather as "summer people." Scots, I gather, are not so clannish.

I know less about icebergs than I do about food. I always thought the part of an iceberg you couldn't see was the scarey part. That might make it analagous to food.

All this talk of epiphany is revealing. I suppose a good case could be made for the subjectivity of taste. Perhaps we're blessed by not having members interested in doing so. "Spain" is the answer and all the more strongly so precisely because it's not been mentioned and in spite of the fact that I've forgotten the real point of the topic.