Defensive Chefs

[Randi]

Maybe I'm not reading enough into the situation. But I don't see anything aggressive, intimidating or confrontational in what the chef did. I see it more along the lines of him wanting to explain himself and lacking the social graces to know not to do it. I don't see anything in the description of his behaviour that intended to create an uncomfortable situation, which he clearly did for you. If I were in the same situation I don't think that it would have bothered me much. But that's just me.

I don't know too many restaurants who would comp a dish or offer something else for free unless the dish were technically flawed. Tasting different from the last time or okay but not as good as last time are very different from "there is something wrong with the dish, in it's execution, it's bad."

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touaregsand, I agree with you. The dish was not flawed - it was simply disappointing, as crab cakes usually are to me. (Except on my previous visit THERE.) I did not point out my disappointment in order to be comped. But I also did not turn down the comp.

And I also agree with your take on the chef - about the lack of social graces to know better. But I really *do* understand his wanting to defend the crab cakes - even if he should have resisted the urge, in my opinion. Unfortunately, although he was not hostile in the least, I was still intimidated and uncomfortable with his coming out from the kitchen to discuss this with me. I was flustered.

Perhaps he could have explained his points to the owner, who could have come back out and told me she had a conversation with the chef and she wanted to relay some information to me. But I guess he really needed me to see the size and quality of the pieces of crabmeat (which wasn't my complaint at all).

[Randi]

As to the issue Randi asked about on this thread:  sounds like the owner and the chef take pride in their new restaurant.  I think their response, while a little tone-deaf, came from the best of intentions.  They wanted to demonstrate to you that they take pride in their ingredients and their product.  They may have come off as too confrontational about it, but I, like you, would give them another chance.  Sounds like they aim to please, even if they're a bit too aggressive about it at the moment.

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Yes, yes, yes. Exactly!! That's pretty much the same conclusion I've come to. Thanks, Seth.

[Randi]

The owner showed that she understood the problem by saying - oh, the other chef made the crab cakes the last time you were here.  Then demonstrated that she can't communicate effectively with the chef in the kitchen, who interpreted the comment as there was something wrong with the way he made the crab cakes.

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Yup!! I do believe it was a difference in the 2 chefs. The restaurant was also significantly busier so perhaps this chef was rushing and didn't season them correctly before putting them under the broiler.

If he does spit in your food, you should definitely stop going there. 

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Man, you're picky!

[Randi]

There's a lot of nuance in something like this that is as hard to convey as the writer as it is to apprehend as the reader.  Was the chef a large, ruddy man with a whine and a grimace poking at his crabcakes like they were dueling pistols saying with his eyes and his tone of voice: "you are a moron, go away" to a much smaller woman?  Or was he a concerned proprietor in a polite tone of voice explaining to a picky customer that he was fairly certain that crabcake construction had been consistent for many months?  Did a change in crab sourcing confound both parties?  Was there an honest difference of opinion?

Not knowing anything about Randi except that she's from Jersey, thus probably a tough chick not prone to panic even when confronted by men who use knives for a living;   that she did not take identify the chef or restaurant in order to take a public shot; and that she asked to compare notes instead of issuing a condemnation; I'd say we should accept her version of events as reasonably accurate until there is reason to believe otherwise.

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busboy, this cracked me up!! But all valid points! While I am from New Jersey I am definitely not a tough chick. I am a big softy (emphasis on big ) so there was no "large man - tiny woman" scenario.

The chef made me feel that I maligned his crab cakes, and he wanted to set the record straight. He was not offensive about it - but he most certainly was defensive. And I was flustered.

By the way, I did identify the restaurant on the NJ forum. It was part of my report on my meal there. I had 2 other reports on meals there, all pretty much glowing, especially about the crab cakes and I felt the need to retract my recommendation of the crab cakes!

Edited March 10, 2005 by Randi (log)

[Randi]

Here is what will make you feel better.  Tomorow, get some zuccini and grate it up and make some cakes.

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[Pan]

[...]generally, consistency of cooking is not always easy to establish. No matter, what the MG proponents suggest, cooking is NOT a science. To quibble about the taste of a particular dish compared to a previous visit is unreasonable. IMO. Mistakes happen. Ratios slip. Often it cannot be fixed. Consistency is ALWAYS a challenge.[...]

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Observing traffic laws consistently is also a challenge, n'est-ce pas? Lots of things are challenges. Judging professionals on the basis of how consistent they are is entirely reasonable and proper! I would argue that someone who can't keep a consistent level of quality is not worthy of being called a professional. Now, on the other hand, if a dish tastes different but equally good or better, that's another issue, but it's always risky to change a customer's favorite dish. However, ain't life always a tradeoff? As long as you are aware of what you're doing, that's fine. Cannot be fixed? Comp the dish, whatever. It's called customer service.

(P.S.: I hope this reply sounds emphatic but not unfriendly.)

[Irishgirl]

Consistency is what keeps restaurants open. The more inconsistent, the faster the place dies! That is why McDonalds has been as successful as it is, people KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT!

So saying that expecting consistency is unreasonable, is ridiculous.

I work in a restaurant with 21 cooks under my supervison....it is my job to make sure that they maintain consistency....no matter how mediocre the order.

Like I said before, legitimate complaints in restaurants should be accepted in the kitchen with thanks and grace.

Ridiculous ignorant complaints like the one I mentioned above....well, like I said, I've been there!

[FaustianBargain]

Hmm...expecting consistency is reasonable? Consistency of quality is reasonable. Consistency in the freshness of ingredients used is reasonable. Expecting edible food is completely reasonable. The kind of rigid consistency from visit to visit is what makes restaurant food boring. This severely limits the range of tastes/flavours/recipes that a chef can create in his kitchen.

I think the dining customers must respect the chef in the kitchen. Anyone can cook if they are talented and have the right training. Running a professional kitchen is a wholly different deal. Imagine, if you can, you have NO idea who is going to order what, but you have to keep everything ready. You have to send food out to five..seven..ten people at the same time. The food has to be hot. The food has to be cooked to the right degree. The plates have to be neatly presented. Arent we all into 'pretty'? The customer is not paying for consistency. He/she is paying for quality ingredients, edible food of the highest quality, service and ambience. Demanding the exact seasoning memory recalls is completely and utterly unreasonable.

The ultimate dining experience, imo, is to 'let go'. Let the chef guide you. Apathy, frustration etc from certain chefs in the industry stems from attitudes like this. There are limits to what you can expect from a man/woman/brigade that works 12-14 hours a day. Non stop. It is hot.

Take Randi's case for example. I am going to imagine a little here. (Randi, i hope you dont mind). Her issue was the 'more filler'. She meant the filler to be the breading. Maybe there was more demand for crab cakes that day. Maybe the supplier failed to deliver the requisite amount of crab meat. Maybe the commis fucked up. Maybe the crab meat went bad.

Why would the crab cakes taste different? Maybe the chef DID use more breading and less of the meat. He COULD have added some other kind of meat/fish to bring the crab ratio: breading to its usual numbers. That would have compromised the dish. The crab cakes on any given day may taste different for any number of reasons.

Good food is what keeps restaurants running. At least, that is how it should be....There is another word for consistency. Monotony. But, Pan and IrishGirl, you are both right. McDonald is consistent. Maybe that is why they are doing so well while restaurants die all the time. A pity. But hey!! Customer is King, no?

Edited March 10, 2005 by FaustianBargain (log)

[*Deborah*]

All I can say in response to that is that if I love something on one visit, and order it on a second visit, I will be surprised if it tastes noticeably different. Call me unreasonable all you like.

If I'm going to French Laundry, evidently I let the chef guide me. If I am going to McDonald's, I must have been drinking pretty heavily in the recent past...if I go back to a restuarant that's somewhere in between those two, that I liked eating at last week, and order a dish I enjoyed again, I expect to have my dish resemble the one I ate last time, and hope the chef hasn't been guided down a strange path in the meantime.

I submit that if the seasoning had been within reasonable levels of consistency, the additional breading would not have made much of a difference to the customer, who can understand that not every crab cake will have the exact same amount of crab.

Anyone who cooks knows that things are a little bit different each time, but you should be able to recognize the dish and the recipe, IMO, without being branded unreasonable.

[Darcie B]

I'm guessing from your spelling that you're based in UK. This is not a value judgment, just a comparison. I live (like the original poster, I think) in the US and have traveled in UK. My impression is that over there, it is somewhat more common for customer complaints to be met with some sort of response or rebuttal from a chef, manager or whatever. It may also be a little less expected for customers to complain; I'm not sure. In the US, the chef's behavior as described by the poster is considered fairly unusual, I think.

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This reminds me of the Monty Python sketch where an American woman is eating at a restaurant with a British man. There is something wrong with his meal and she wants to let the waiter know, but he is mortified by the thought of complaining.

As to the consistency issue...if I order a menu item at a restaurant and order it again on another occasion, I expect it to be very similar. If it tasted quite different I would be surprised. I guess I don't view the role of the chef in the same way as FaustianBargain does (and yes, I do have restaurant kitchen experience). When someone orders a menu item, I feel it is the role of the chef to deliver that item in a quality manner, as consistently as possible. Why have a menu if every dish is going to come out differently?

[Fernwood]

After our meal the owner of the restaurant (she owns it with her husband, who is the main chef), came over to see how our dinner was. 

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Another nuance here is the context of the "complaint". The owner solicited Randi's feedback, and she gave it. I can't speak for her, but I doubt I would have called over the management to complain about mediocre crabcakes, but I do think I would have offered my criticism when the owner asked how dinner was, which is what she did. As Randi pointed out, it is a new business; it is reasonable to think that they are genuinely interested in customer feedback.

Fern

[touaregsand]

I don't think I would have offered a criticism just because the owner or anyone else asked me how everything was. That's a pretty standard line at any restaurant, isn't it? I see it as a social gesture rather than an invitation for criticism or detailed feedback.

I'm not saying it's wrong to give feedback. I'm just saying I know that some people don't care about my opnion, like now for instance.

[halloweencat]

really? i have the opposite take...if someone...especially the managment...asks me how my food is, then that person should expect the truth, even if everything isn't perfection.

if this is relegated to a social nicety, then the management is putting me in the position of being forced to lie if i don't care for something, which is a bit unfair. if i'm being asked my opinion and i'm the one paying for my food, why should it not be expected that i would tell the truth?

cheers :)

hc

[touaregsand]

I see the question as broadly as "how are you?" When I ask it I have to admit, I don't always really care. Sometimes I say, "I'm fine" when I'm not.

I also don't confuse my opinion as the truth.

EDIT: How was everything or how was the food is such a standard line in the restaurant business that if every customer stopped to offer more detailed feedback other than the standard, "fine, okay or great" it would slow down everything so much we'd stop asking the question.

Edited March 10, 2005 by touaregsand (log)

[Popcorn]

I see the question as broadly as "how are you?"  When I ask it I have to admit, I don't always really care. Sometimes I say, "I'm fine" when I'm not.

I also don't confuse my opinion as the truth.

EDIT: How was everything or how was the food is such a standard line in the restaurant business that if every customer stopped to offer more detailed feedback other than the standard, "fine, okay or great" it would slow down everything so much we'd stop asking the question. 

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If you don't want a response, maybe you should stop asking the question. Or at least not be surprised when customers respond to it.

[SKinCA]

I once went with my husband to a new Mexican restaurant in my town. We were walking around with the kids and just needed to feed them (the fuse was getting a bit short on the kids due to hunger - parents out there know what I mean!).

The food was awful. Really dreadful. So bad that I wouldn't know where to start other than "First, fire your chef".

In this kind of instance, I generally just don't say anything as I haven't anything constructive to say. If asked about the food, I'd probably just say "fine", chalk it up to experience and then never go there again. No biggie.

But my husband, when asked by the waiter "how was it?", replied "terrible".

Well, over came the owner, over came the chef wanting to know what was wrong. I just want to crawl under the table because I so dreadfully don't want to have this conversation. 15 excruciating minutes later, we're finally out of there.

My husband doesn't understand why I didn't want to say anything, doesn't understand why I'm a bit pissed at him. Ugh.

So, I will give feedback where I can be constructive ie: everything was great, but my salad plate was hot when it should have been cold, or, my enchilada had too much cheese. It has to be something they have a possibility of fixing.

And I should amend to: "my enchilada had too much cheese for me" because after all "too much cheese" is highly subjective. If I returned and ordered the enchilada, it would be my responsibility to specify "go easy on the cheese, please" to my server in that case.

I'm quite sensitive to the difference between "this is wrong" - cold salad on hot plate and "I don't like this" - too much cheese for me. I think there is quite a divide between the two.

And, if offering well meant constructive feedback is met with a derisive attitude, than that's a place that clearly doesn't need my patronage. I would hope that if something is going horribly amiss in ones dining room, one would want to know about it.

[reesek]

I see the question as broadly as "how are you?"  When I ask it I have to admit, I don't always really care. Sometimes I say, "I'm fine" when I'm not.

I also don't confuse my opinion as the truth.

EDIT: How was everything or how was the food is such a standard line in the restaurant business that if every customer stopped to offer more detailed feedback other than the standard, "fine, okay or great" it would slow down everything so much we'd stop asking the question. 

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maybe you should stop asking if you don't care. i'm not trying to be hostile, but i'm with halloweencat here. if i ask suzy how she is in the hallway of my office and she starts moaning about her in-laws and their bunions - i would sorely regret having asked, but i'd have no business blaming her for answering. i'd much rather not be asked than be asked by someone who doesn't care.

edited to clarify last point.

Edited March 10, 2005 by reesek (log)

[Timh]

In my experiences as a chef I've got a few golden moments concerning unhappy guests. (New Orleans, Vino wine bar-bistro), one customer sent back a beef dish complaining of glass in it, it was fleur de sel my waitstaff explained, she wasn't satisfied so I went out with her returned plate, cut a piece of her steak and ate it(w/extra fd'sel) and offered her a new entree. Another guest repeatedly remarked that the potato puree was too smooth to be real, must be from a box. I invited her back to the kitchen, she refused, so I came out to her table and commented that while she was wrong, I was impressed with her knowledge of powdered potatoes. These examples were extreme in that there was nothing I could have done to please them, they wanted a whipping boy , and I'll be damned if it was gonna be me, IN MY RESTAURANT.

[winesonoma]

You ask me, I will tell you. If I really did not find it satisfactory, I tell you anyway. Listening is the price of getting my money. Fixing it will bring me back. We had a place in town where I liked the food but the red wine was always 70 degrees. I told them 3 times and then stopped going. They agreed with me but did not fix it. They are now closed and it's a shame.

[SWISS_CHEF]

You ask me, I will tell you. If I really did not find it satisfactory, I tell you anyway. Listening is the price of getting my money. Fixing it will bring me back. We had a place in town where I liked the food but the red wine was always 70 degrees. I told them 3 times and then stopped going. They agreed with me but did not fix it. They are now closed and it's a shame.  

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Dead on the spot. I agree 100 %. If it sucks, rock their world!

[touaregsand]

[touaregsand]

maybe you should stop asking if you don't care. i'm not trying to be hostile, but i'm with halloweencat here. if i ask suzy how she is in the hallway of my office and she starts moaning about her in-laws and their bunions - i would sorely regret having asked, but i'd have no business blaming her for answering. i'd much rather not be asked than be asked by someone who doesn't care.

I explained this upthread. I'm not blaming anyone for answering or saying it's wrong to answer. I'm just saying (apparently I am the most insincere person here ) it's one of those questions that are a part of social interaction. It's ubiquitous. Assuming that the other person really wants a detailed answer is not my automatic assumption. I mean the cashier at the grocery store asks me this, the mailman, the teller, etc... I'll have to ask each and everyone of them if they really mean it and to please look deeply into my eyes when they ask. I'm not trying to hostile or a smart ass. Just a little levity.

[SWISS_CHEF]

In my experiences as a chef I've got a few golden moments concerning unhappy guests. (New Orleans, Vino wine bar-bistro), one customer sent back a beef dish complaining of glass in it, it was fleur de sel my waitstaff explained, she wasn't satisfied so I went out with her returned plate, cut a piece of her steak and ate it(w/extra fd'sel) and offered her a new entree.  Another guest repeatedly remarked that the potato puree was too smooth to be real, must be from a box. I invited her back to the kitchen, she refused, so I came out to her table and commented that while she was wrong, I was impressed with her knowledge of powdered potatoes. These examples were extreme in that there was nothing I could have done to please them, they wanted a whipping boy , and I'll be damned if it was gonna be me, IN MY RESTAURANT.

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"These examples were extreme in that there was nothing I could have done to please them, they wanted a whipping boy , and I'll be damned if it was gonna be me, IN MY RESTAURANT."

With all due respect: lose the attitude, it will lengthen your career.

For many people biting into a steak and hitting a chunk of rock salt is annoying, especially if they have dentures. You may prove your point but the customer will bitch about the event to all of their friends you will lose much more than she will in the end.

[Tess]

maybe you should stop asking if you don't care. i'm not trying to be hostile, but i'm with halloweencat here. if i ask suzy how she is in the hallway of my office and she starts moaning about her in-laws and their bunions - i would sorely regret having asked, but i'd have no business blaming her for answering. i'd much rather not be asked than be asked by someone who doesn't care.

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And that's a co-worker, not a customer. A customer has every reason to take that question at face value.

I'm in the middle on this issue. Personally, I don't complain unless food is uncooked or burned or clearly different from the way it was described on the menu, i.e. unless it seems like there was really some kind of mistake. If a dish I liked seemed to be different all of a sudden, I might ask, "Have you changed the way you make this?" as a matter of interest, not as a complaint. (I want to know if I should order it again.)

But I don't get what seems to be the idea that because chefs are professionals and their job is challenging, they shouldn't be questioned. What professional in this world has a job where his or her work is never under scrutiny from customers? And, yes, you do know more about your field than the average customer, but the customer is paying you. You're not in the business as a favor to the customer.

[chefzadi]

In my experiences as a chef I've got a few golden moments concerning unhappy guests. (New Orleans, Vino wine bar-bistro), one customer sent back a beef dish complaining of glass in it, it was fleur de sel my waitstaff explained, she wasn't satisfied so I went out with her returned plate, cut a piece of her steak and ate it(w/extra fd'sel) and offered her a new entree.  Another guest repeatedly remarked that the potato puree was too smooth to be real, must be from a box. I invited her back to the kitchen, she refused, so I came out to her table and commented that while she was wrong, I was impressed with her knowledge of powdered potatoes. These examples were extreme in that there was nothing I could have done to please them, they wanted a whipping boy , and I'll be damned if it was gonna be me, IN MY RESTAURANT.

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"These examples were extreme in that there was nothing I could have done to please them, they wanted a whipping boy , and I'll be damned if it was gonna be me, IN MY RESTAURANT."

With all due respect: lose the attitude, it will lengthen your career.

For many people biting into a steak and hitting a chunk of rock salt is annoying, especially if they have dentures. You may prove your point but the customer will bitch about the event to all of their friends you will lose much more than she will in the end.

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I got the impression that Timh made it clear that his examples were extreme. I can reccomend another website for industry pros that he can vent on to a more sypmathetic crowd. From what I've read on egullet, it seems the prevailing attitude here is that the customer isn't perhaps always right, but usually more right.

I'm usually surprised to read extreme accounts from both sides. In all my years working in commercial kitchens I don't recall a single one. (except for this one regular who was terribly rude to the FOH, but that's another story).

By the way, Timh love your sense of humour!