Reading Terminal Market (Part 1)

[Curlz]

First of all, a big shout-out and THANK YOU to Bob for his gracious offer to give me a guided tour of the RTM yesterday, including door-to-door service! I couldn't have asked for a better guide--he really does know the place and the vendors, as you can see from his posts.

We started out at DiNic's since there were stools open that were calling our names...the roast pork w/cheese and greens is everything you've heard, and definitely a don't-miss item if you're in town. Better (GASP) than a cheesesteak, imho! (Btw, it was smart to eat the sandwich first, b/c then I was able to really look at everything else with my eyes instead of my stomach! ) We then walked around and I got the low-down on who's good, who's not, and whose lease is being renewed and whose isn't. I picked up a couple of pears at Iovine's as well as some freshly roasted and ground mocha java from Old City Coffee Roasters, and enjoyed the smell in my hotel room AND in my car today. We ended our visit with some Bassett's, which is also a wonderful thing. All of this and I still had a visit to StudioKitchen ahead of me...but that's for another thread.

This morning, I loaded up a bag of ice for my cooler, checked out of the hotel and went right back to the Market, where I had breakfast at the Down Home Diner (another Bob rec that was right on the money). I had the eggs, cheese and (YUM) scrapple sandwich on excellent whole grain wheat toast, and then I was ready to power-shop. Apple dumplings (these things weight a TON!) for dessert tonight at my bro's, a fresh-from-the-oven pretzel from Foster's (?), and about a pound of assorted chicken sausages from Martin's. Finally, a cup of really good coffee from Old City, and I was ready to hit the road. All in all, a great framework for my <24-hour visit to Philadelphia, wouldn't you say?

[herbacidal]

We started out at DiNic's since there were stools open that were calling our names...the roast pork w/cheese and greens is everything you've heard, and definitely a don't-miss item if you're in town.  Better (GASP) than a cheesesteak, imho! 

Wait'll you try it with rabe instead of spinach at someplace other than Dinic's.

But that's just my personal preference.

[Rebecca263]

...the roast pork w/cheese and greens is everything you've heard, and definitely a don't-miss item if you're in town.  Better (GASP) than a cheesesteak, imho!  

Wait'll you try it with rabe instead of spinach at someplace other than Dinic's.

But that's just my personal preference.

←

Oh My Holy Oats, you're so right, rabe took the tuna hoagie at Rocco's (now Carmen's but the same family, so to speak!) from great to heavenly. The kiddle had never been willing to eat rabe before, she devoured her entire sandwich at Carmen's. I'll also second Rich Pawlak's opine of Carmen. Firstly, he is friendly beyond the pale. He is garrulous, and he knows it, he doesn't try to hide his open nature, and he truly means well! He hung around and chatted with me while the kiddles and I had our hoagies. We talked for at least ten minutes about the bread alone. We both prefer the same brand of Italian tinned tuna in olive oil, and he really is very dedicated to making a truly delicious sandwich. I can see how he might be a little much for what my dad would call 'quiet folk', but I really loved him for his open heart and his lack of pretension. He is planning on franchising, too. As for cheesesteaks, well, I don't know why, but Carmen's place just seemed more singular than a cheesesteak would be. Besides, we planned on eating AFTER lunch, too. A cheesesteak would have killed me.

[mrbigjas]

I think one of the most underrecognized merchants at RTM is Rocco's Italian Hoagies.  I had the privalege of working with Carmen and his crew at the food court at The Bellevue when I was the marketing/PR director there, and I can say with complete confidence that I have never met anyone as fanatically devoted to the hoagie ouvre as Carmen.  His attention to every component of the sandwich is impressive, from the hand inspection of every roll every day, to his obsession with the quality and cleanliness of the romaine lettuce and his careful handling of his meats and cheeses.  Dollar for dollar, I've never had a better "boutique hoagie," and, in a city blessed with some iconic hoagie makers, that it impressive.  The Special Italian and Chicken Ala Rocco hoagies, to me, rank among the very best sandwiches in the city, hands down. 

I realize that I have been privy to the details of painstaking work and attention to detail that go into the hoagie process at Rocco's, and that when  purchasing a sandwich there it may not be readily apparent, but these guys are on top of their game. I miss the hoegies at Rocco's more than almost any food in Philly.

If anyone stops by to test my assertions, please say hello to Carmen for me, as I never seem to get to RTM these days.

←

i didn't specifically say hello to carmen (assuming he was the guy running the register--middle aged, longish graying hair, very nice, obviously loves the world of hoagies) but i did think of your post yesterday when i was at the terminal and suddenly had the urge for an italian hoagie, so i went over to rocco's and got the special.

and you're right, it's a delicious sandwich. if you go, be sure to get the house-roasted sweets and hots on it. the hots especially are worth it, but in general it's much better than the jarred stuff that you usually get on hoagies (and that they also offer if you like that sort of thing).

my only reservation is that the sandwiches there might not be as big as some people might expect when they think they're getting a hoagie. i think i could finish one pretty easily, and that's not really a compliment when it comes to hoagies--people think of them as big abundant sandwiches, and rocco's don't qualify as that.

i don't want anyone to interpret that in any negative way, though. every ingredient is great, from the rolls from liscio's, to the sharp provolone, to the various meats... and really maybe we wouldn't be the least healthy city in the US like we were a few years ago if hoagies were a little more reasonable in size.

damn, i might be about to go on another hoagie binge again.

one question rich: what's the deal with rocco's vs. carmen's or whatever, namewise? just an ownership change, like louie's lee's liquor lounge in the dale watson song, or ruth's chris steak house? or something else?

[philadining]

I met a Rocco there in the mid-late 80s, I always assumed that was THE Rocco... I'm 99% sure his full name was Rocco DiGuglielmo. I don't know whether he's still involved, or if he sold the business. The RTM website calls it Carmen's, run by Carmen DiGuglielmo, and says "new name, same family."

[Rich Pawlak]

Carmen is Rocco's older, wiser brother. Rocco, who had opened several hoagie outposts (The Bellevue, RTM, Ocean City, NJ, some others) was a lousy businessman, and eventually sold the businesses to his older, wiser brother. To my knowledge, only the Bellevue and RTM locations remain. It is fitting that Carmen changed the name, since he's been doing all of the heavy lifting, hard work and quality control for years.

[Rich Pawlak]

I think one of the most underrecognized merchants at RTM is Rocco's Italian Hoagies.  I had the privalege of working with Carmen and his crew at the food court at The Bellevue when I was the marketing/PR director there, and I can say with complete confidence that I have never met anyone as fanatically devoted to the hoagie ouvre as Carmen.  His attention to every component of the sandwich is impressive, from the hand inspection of every roll every day, to his obsession with the quality and cleanliness of the romaine lettuce and his careful handling of his meats and cheeses.  Dollar for dollar, I've never had a better "boutique hoagie," and, in a city blessed with some iconic hoagie makers, that it impressive.  The Special Italian and Chicken Ala Rocco hoagies, to me, rank among the very best sandwiches in the city, hands down. 

I realize that I have been privy to the details of painstaking work and attention to detail that go into the hoagie process at Rocco's, and that when  purchasing a sandwich there it may not be readily apparent, but these guys are on top of their game. I miss the hoegies at Rocco's more than almost any food in Philly.

If anyone stops by to test my assertions, please say hello to Carmen for me, as I never seem to get to RTM these days.

←

i didn't specifically say hello to carmen (assuming he was the guy running the register--middle aged, longish graying hair, very nice, obviously loves the world of hoagies) but i did think of your post yesterday when i was at the terminal and suddenly had the urge for an italian hoagie, so i went over to rocco's and got the special.

and you're right, it's a delicious sandwich. if you go, be sure to get the house-roasted sweets and hots on it. the hots especially are worth it, but in general it's much better than the jarred stuff that you usually get on hoagies (and that they also offer if you like that sort of thing).

my only reservation is that the sandwiches there might not be as big as some people might expect when they think they're getting a hoagie. i think i could finish one pretty easily, and that's not really a compliment when it comes to hoagies--people think of them as big abundant sandwiches, and rocco's don't qualify as that.

i don't want anyone to interpret that in any negative way, though. every ingredient is great, from the rolls from liscio's, to the sharp provolone, to the various meats... and really maybe we wouldn't be the least healthy city in the US like we were a few years ago if hoagies were a little more reasonable in size.

damn, i might be about to go on another hoagie binge again.

one question rich: what's the deal with rocco's vs. carmen's or whatever, namewise? just an ownership change, like louie's lee's liquor lounge in the dale watson song, or ruth's chris steak house? or something else?

←

That's why I always call them "boutique hoagies". I've always imagined that if ever the Four Seasons or Ritz Carlton or, more appropriately, the Park Hyatt wanted to serve a hoagie for room service or lunch, they would use a Rocco's/Carmen's hoagie as the template.

[Rebecca263]

Carmen told me that he changed the name for his ego and that he hopes to franchise. He IS a natural and honest guy! BTW, I didn't think the sandwiches were small for the price, but I did want to ask him what he does with the butts of the bread that he removes from the loaves. I would have wanted mine! Yum!

And, BTW, I've PM'd Vadouvan, and I'll wait a day for a response before I will post a reply on the subject of "rude" and "pushy" opines.

[shacke]

It was pretty quiet today at the RTM. Most vendors were open. Since it is so rainy, I opted for a mixed bag of turkey necks, backs and wings for a rainy day one pot dinner....

Evan

[Rich Pawlak]

Carmen told me that he changed the name for his ego and that he hopes to franchise. He IS a natural and honest guy! BTW, I didn't think the sandwiches were small for the price, but I did want to ask him what he does with the butts of the bread that he removes from the loaves. I would have wanted mine! Yum!

And, BTW, I've PM'd Vadouvan, and I'll wait a day for a response before I will post a reply on the subject of "rude" and "pushy" opines.

←

I know that Carmen used to make bread crumbs for his chicken cutlet coating from the heels, as well as use them as an accompaniment to his "naked hoagies" (low carb craze hoagies sans bread, of which I used to eat many when I was on Atkins).

[Rich Pawlak]

I just called over to The Bellevue location of the former Rocco's and it is now called "Ellen's Italian Hoagies", so it may no longer have ANY affiliation to Rocco or Carmen. And that would be a shame. Curious if the quality is different or the styles of sandwiches are different.

[Mottmott]

I'm curious whether anyone else has noticed this.

I used to buy meat at Ochs, but seldom do so any more. All things being equal, I prefer getting meat that does not have antibiotics or hormones. Now a beautifully marbled steak or standing rib could make me bend on that, particularly if I'm already at RTM. But lately I don't see beautifully marbled meat there, and the last time I bought a rib roast there it was merely acceptable.

I've taken to buying meat mostly at Whole Foods because of the additives issue, and I have to admit that I have pretty good luck finding well marbled beef there, too. This annoys me, as I'd rather support individual vendors than chain stores.

[mrbigjas]

i've noticed the marbling issues as well in the last year-plus, especially in the strip steaks we usually buy, which we've mostly stopped buying because they're nearly fat-free in the main steaky kind of area. and i've wondered about it as well, but thought that i must be imagining things.

but i didn't know that about the antibiotics/hormones. in fact, i thought that i read an article when the fair food people first came in and were advertising their meat as all-natural grass-fed etc. etc., the ochs folks were annoyed because their stuff is too, and they thought fair food's advertising made them seem less eco-friendly than they actually are. am i crazy? does anyone else remember that?

edit: found it, and here's google's cache of it. it wasn't as explicitly stated as i had thought.

Edited January 5, 2006 by mrbigjas (log)

[Mottmott]

i've noticed the marbling issues as well in the last year-plus, especially in the strip steaks we usually buy, which we've mostly stopped buying because they're nearly fat-free in the main steaky kind of area.  and i've wondered about it as well, but thought that i must be imagining things.

but i didn't know that about the antibiotics/hormones.  in fact, i thought that i read an article when the fair food people first came in and were advertising their meat as all-natural grass-fed etc. etc., the ochs folks were annoyed because their stuff is too, and they thought fair food's advertising made them seem less eco-friendly than they actually are.  am i crazy?  does anyone else remember that?

edit: found it, and here's google's cache of it.  it wasn't as explicitly stated as i had thought.

←

As I live alone, I resort to steaks and chops often, so I really notice. I believe I asked about the antibiotics/hormones at Ochs some time back and was told it was not a/h free. It was so long ago, though, I may misremember. But that issue aside, the Whole Foods (Callowhill St) steaks are better marbled. Waygu beats it, but I only treat my company to that.

[rlibkind]

I'm curious whether anyone else has noticed this.

I used to buy meat at Ochs, but seldom do so any more. All things being equal, I prefer getting meat that does not have antibiotics or hormones. Now a beautifully marbled steak or standing rib could make me bend on that, particularly if I'm already at RTM. But lately I don't see beautifully marbled meat there, and the last time I bought a rib roast there it was merely acceptable.

I've taken to buying meat mostly at Whole Foods because of the additives issue, and I have to admit that I have pretty good luck finding well marbled beef there, too. This annoys me, as I'd rather support individual vendors than chain stores.

←

I put the question raised by Mottmott directly to Nick Ochs today.

First, antibiotics and hormones. All the beef they sell comes from a single supplier in Berwyn who slaughters only local steers. No growth hormones are used. Antibiotics are used only for therapy, not on the sub-therapeutic level, i.e., in the feed. (Sub-therapeutic use of antibiotics is where the danger resides.) Hey, if a cattleman has an investment in an animal and it gets a bacterial infection, he wants to protect that investment by giving the animal the proper medicine, and I have no problem with that, just as I'll ingest antibiotics when medically appropriate. But the beef Harry Ochs sells do not get antibiotics in their regular feed.

Now onto tenderness and flavor.

Harry Ochs carries both choice and prime beef. And even within the category of prime, he has two levels of aging. The pre-cut strip steaks you see in the front case are not the best available at Harry's. Most of the prime beef is dry aged for two weeks. However, a smaller quantity is aged for six weeks or more. It is cut to order, not pre-cut for display. Ask for it. You'll pay for all that water loss, but your tongue won't regret it. Harry Ochs does all his own hanging (at his supplier's facility, I believe). The cattle are fed on both grass and corn (the latter to encourage fattiness).

As for the marbling issue, Nick opined that because they trim it very closely, it appears to be leaner than it actually is.

Some personal observations. Marbling is an important component of what makes a good steak or roast, but it is hardly the sole determinant. Some experts contend marbling and fat content are responsible for only one-quarter of a piece of beef's flavor and tenderness. The breed, age and feed of the animal are also important. An older steer will be tastier, but it will be less tender than a young animal. An animal that's strictly grass fed will be considerably leaner. And all other things being equal, there's still natural variety between individual animals: some just taste better than others, even if they're from the same herd, fed the same food, slaughtered the same way. Nor can you entirely rely on the USDA grading system. I've had pieces of Choice that were was tender as Prime and more flavorful, and I've had Prime that should have been graded Choice.

As for Whole Foods, I concur that they offer some excellent beef, and I frequently buy my meat there. Unlike their exorbitant prices on fish, WF is competitive on beef. And their lamb can be exceptional.

But I also buy from Harry Ochs and Martins. What I particularly like about Harry Ochs is the service: if you want a beef navel, he'll get it for you. If you want 20 pounds of beef cheek (as someone asked for recenlty -- was it you, Shacke?), he'll get that, too. You want your meat cut a certain way? No problem!

So, Mottmott, I'd recommend giving it another try, but this time asking for the super-aged beef. And I'd be happy to join you in a taste test!

[rlibkind]

Winter strawberries? Yes. Every year Iovine brings in Florida berries at a bargain price. And what's surprising is that they have good flavor. Vinnie promises that the two pints I bought today will not only have flavor, but be sweet. They sure smell good. I bought them for $1.49 apiece, but if his brother Jimmy can cut the right deal with their supplier, you might find these berries for 99-cents this weekend. But even at $1.49 they appear worth it.

Also at Iovines, those 50-cent avocados are gone, as expected. Still, the Haas avocados in today looked good at a buck apiece. No more bargains in any bell pepper, not even green which, iirc, were either $1.49 or $1.99 today.

New this year are Galia melons from Brazil. This variety was first popularized by Israeli growers and later brought to the New World. $1.49 per melon. Good looking navel oranges at 3/$1; I picked up half a dozen. Nice variety of grapefruit, some at excellent prices. Vinnie Iovine said they've been real happy with the quality of the California Clementines this year; they were out of them today but should have them in stock for the weekend. It's definitely citrus season.

Frozen langoustines were available at Golden Seafood (near Arch). They are a farmed freshwater variety from India, which accounts for the relative bargain price of $9.99/pound. Golden still had branzino. John Yi's still had sardines at either $2.99 or $3.99, depending on the size; spearling are also still in stock. Pacific King salmon back at Yi's: $11.99/pound.

Kaufman's Produce closed this week. Will reopen next week.

I was going to try one of those hoagies at Carmen's today, but they were closed because of "refrigerator trouble" according to the sign.

Fair Food Project kept some fresh Country Time pork on hand today rather than immediately putting it in the freezer. (Just in time for Rick Nichols' column in today's Inquirer.)

Expect the vendors who lost their leases to vacate the premises by Jan. 31. Braverman's may shut down sooner. That spot will be occupied by the new pastry shop. The Sandwich Stand will become Spataro's new home, and the latter's prime venue along Center Court will become the new Jewish deli, with counters on both center court and the opposite aisle. For posterity's sake, here are photos take today of Braverman's, the Sandwich Stand and Tokyo Sushi Bar:

[Tim Dolan]

rlibkind, I would like to personally thank you for your research. I'm heading up the Poconos tonight and wanted a nice dinner, so I sent my girlfriend, who barely knows anything about food, to get me a porterhouse from Och's this afternoon. She called me from there right after she ordered it and explained that the guy behind the counter had to go in the back and cut it right then and there. He asked her how big, she said "uh, I dunno, like this" and gave him the good old 2 inch-between-your-finger-and-thumb measurement. It cost $38, I just took a peek at it and it's literally the largest piece of meat I think I've ever seen. I'm going to assume that is of the 6 week aging pedigree. I'm so excited to get up there and grill this bad boy I can barely type. I'll be sure to post on how it was when I get back!

[rlibkind]

Dug into those $1.49/pint Florida strawberries tonight. The flavor was there. Not particularly sweet, but you can always add sugar. And some of the stem ends were a bit white. But still, for winter berries, very good at a very good price. If Vinnie and Jimmie can knock the price down to 99 cents this weekend they'll be an even bigger bargain.

Tim, do let us know your opinion of that porterhouse. I will tell you that the sub-primal hunk of porterhouse I spied in Ochs side case this afternoon was stamped Choice, not Prime. Which should not be taken to mean yours won't be delicious. If you got a 3-pound plus steak for $38, odds are it was choice. If the steak was closer to 2 pounds, then it was most likely the extra-aged prime.

[mrbigjas]

I put the question raised by Mottmott directly to Nick Ochs today.

wow, thanks bob.

Harry Ochs carries both choice and prime beef. And even within the category of prime, he has two levels of aging. The pre-cut strip  steaks you see in the front case are not the best available at Harry's. Most of the prime beef is dry aged for two weeks.

are the ones in the front case the choice ones? or just the less-aged prime? and are the more-aged ones the ones in the case on the side? that's good stuff.

But I also buy from Harry Ochs and Martins. What I particularly like about Harry Ochs is the service: if you want a beef navel, he'll get it for you. If you want 20 pounds of beef cheek (as someone asked for recenlty -- was it you, Shacke?), he'll get that, too. You want your meat cut a certain way? No problem!

got that right--i do love that place. that reminds me that i was going to order a hanger steak from them this week...

Edited January 6, 2006 by mrbigjas (log)

[rlibkind]

are the ones in the front case the choice ones?  or just the less-aged prime?  and are the more-aged ones the ones in the case on the side?  that's good stuff.

←

I don't presume to know how Harry and Nick handle their stock, i.e., what grade/aging variety gets placed where. Your best bet is, simply, to ask.

[mrbigjas]

New this year are Galia melons from Brazil. This variety was first popularized by Israeli growers and later brought to the New World. $1.49 per melon.

have you tried these? i considered buying one last week but when i picked it up it had a super floral almost papaya-ish smell to it, and sometimes papaya smells like cat pee to me, so i put it back down.

John Yi's still had sardines at either $2.99 or $3.99, depending on the size; spearling are also still in stock.

what do you do with those spearling? i saw them last week and was intrigued--any idea? just flour and fry, like smelt but snackier? do they need cleaning or do you just eat them as is?

[rlibkind]

New this year are Galia melons from Brazil. This variety was first popularized by Israeli growers and later brought to the New World. $1.49 per melon.

have you tried these? i considered buying one last week but when i picked it up it had a super floral almost papaya-ish smell to it, and sometimes papaya smells like cat pee to me, so i put it back down.

John Yi's still had sardines at either $2.99 or $3.99, depending on the size; spearling are also still in stock.

what do you do with those spearling? i saw them last week and was intrigued--any idea? just flour and fry, like smelt but snackier? do they need cleaning or do you just eat them as is?

←

Galia melons: I didn't try these. I have had them in the past and enjoyed them. Your basic canteloupe/honeydew type melon; like many melons, it doesn't have a knock your socks off flavor, but it's pleasant enough. And the price was a good one. Used to be when they first appeared on these shores that a similar sized Israeli melon would cost as much as $5. Of course, the best one I ever ate was on a sunny afternoon at a shorefront café in Tel Aviv.

Spearling: Never worked up the guts to eat them, since they are consumed guts, eyes and all. I think you just try 'em up as is after tossing in flour. Treat them like the British treat whitebait. (Useless information: In October, seacoast communities throughout Britain celebrate traditional Trafalgar Night Dinners of whitebait and roast beef and toasts to 'The Immortal Memory' of Nelson.) Hmmm? Maybe the key is to accompany them with plenty of grog. Or whisky. Or beer.

[KatieLoeb]

Winter strawberries? Yes. Every year Iovine brings in Florida berries at a bargain price. And what's surprising is that they have good flavor. Vinnie promises that the two pints I bought today will not only have flavor, but be sweet. They sure smell good. I bought them for $1.49 apiece, but if his brother Jimmy can cut the right deal with their supplier, you might find these berries for 99-cents this weekend. But even at $1.49 they appear worth it.

I bought a box of these yesterday and had some tonight for the first time. They're delicious and a little taste of summer. I cut them in half, sprinkled them with a little demerara sugar, a pinch of salt and a little Grand Marnier and let them release some juices for about 15 minutes. A dollop of sour cream on top and they were a real treat. Price has gone up to $1.99/box but they're well worth it. Every single berry in the box is red and perfectly formed and they smell heavenly.

Thanks for the heads up Bob! I still have half the box left for dessert tomorrow night and then I might have to go get more over the weekend!

[rlibkind]

Winter strawberries? Yes. Every year Iovine brings in Florida berries at a bargain price. And what's surprising is that they have good flavor. Vinnie promises that the two pints I bought today will not only have flavor, but be sweet. They sure smell good. I bought them for $1.49 apiece, but if his brother Jimmy can cut the right deal with their supplier, you might find these berries for 99-cents this weekend. But even at $1.49 they appear worth it.

I bought a box of these yesterday and had some tonight for the first time. They're delicious and a little taste of summer. I cut them in half, sprinkled them with a little demerara sugar, a pinch of salt and a little Grand Marnier and let them release some juices for about 15 minutes. A dollop of sour cream on top and they were a real treat. Price has gone up to $1.99/box but they're well worth it. Every single berry in the box is red and perfectly formed and they smell heavenly.

←

The ones I brought home were very flavorful, but not at all sweet, as Vinnie promised. As you did, letting them swim in some sugar for a bit fixed that and then the flavor really shined.

[Mottmott]

I'm curious whether anyone else has noticed this.

I used to buy meat at Ochs, but seldom do so any more. All things being equal, I prefer getting meat that does not have antibiotics or hormones. Now a beautifully marbled steak or standing rib could make me bend on that, particularly if I'm already at RTM. But lately I don't see beautifully marbled meat there, and the last time I bought a rib roast there it was merely acceptable.

I've taken to buying meat mostly at Whole Foods because of the additives issue, and I have to admit that I have pretty good luck finding well marbled beef there, too. This annoys me, as I'd rather support individual vendors than chain stores.

←

I put the question raised by Mottmott directly to Nick Ochs today.

First, antibiotics and hormones. All the beef they sell comes from a single supplier in Berwyn who slaughters only local steers. No growth hormones are used. Antibiotics are used only for therapy, not on the sub-therapeutic level, i.e., in the feed. (Sub-therapeutic use of antibiotics is where the danger resides.) Hey, if a cattleman has an investment in an animal and it gets a bacterial infection, he wants to protect that investment by giving the animal the proper medicine, and I have no problem with that, just as I'll ingest antibiotics when medically appropriate. But the beef Harry Ochs sells do not get antibiotics in their regular feed.

Now onto tenderness and flavor.

Harry Ochs carries both choice and prime beef. And even within the category of prime, he has two levels of aging. The pre-cut strip steaks you see in the front case are not the best available at Harry's. Most of the prime beef is dry aged for two weeks. However, a smaller quantity is aged for six weeks or more. It is cut to order, not pre-cut for display. Ask for it. You'll pay for all that water loss, but your tongue won't regret it. Harry Ochs does all his own hanging (at his supplier's facility, I believe). The cattle are fed on both grass and corn (the latter to encourage fattiness).

As for the marbling issue, Nick opined that because they trim it very closely, it appears to be leaner than it actually is.

Some personal observations. Marbling is an important component of what makes a good steak or roast, but it is hardly the sole determinant. Some experts contend marbling and fat content are responsible for only one-quarter of a piece of beef's flavor and tenderness. The breed, age and feed of the animal are also important. An older steer will be tastier, but it will be less tender than a young animal. An animal that's strictly grass fed will be considerably leaner. And all other things being equal, there's still natural variety between individual animals: some just taste better than others, even if they're from the same herd, fed the same food, slaughtered the same way. Nor can you entirely rely on the USDA grading system. I've had pieces of Choice that were was tender as Prime and more flavorful, and I've had Prime that should have been graded Choice.

As for Whole Foods, I concur that they offer some excellent beef, and I frequently buy my meat there. Unlike their exorbitant prices on fish, WF is competitive on beef. And their lamb can be exceptional.

But I also buy from Harry Ochs and Martins. What I particularly like about Harry Ochs is the service: if you want a beef navel, he'll get it for you. If you want 20 pounds of beef cheek (as someone asked for recenlty -- was it you, Shacke?), he'll get that, too. You want your meat cut a certain way? No problem!

So, Mottmott, I'd recommend giving it another try, but this time asking for the super-aged beef. And I'd be happy to join you in a taste test!

←

Thanks for this iinfo, particularly that the meat is local as well as not daily dosed with drugs. Last time I was at RTM, I put off buying beef there and make an extra shopping stop at WF just for the meat (which is practically the only thing I'll buy there).

I'll check out the back of the Ochs shop stock next time I'm there. I must say, though, that my first disenchantment with Ochs came with a pre-ordered rib roast that definitely did not match up with others I had from them previously.

As for the marbling, the marbling I look for is the delicate streaking inside the meat and no amount of trimming would change that. Indeed, with standing ribs, I'm about to resort to the old fashioned practice of larding the beef when I don't see enough marbling. I don't eat a lot of beef anymore, and when I do, fat be damned.

It would be great fun to do a cook-off of steaks from Ochs, WF, and a Waygu for good measure. Our own little America's test kitchen?