NY Style deli

[Chef Fowke]

Exactly!

Now on to a new thread: What makes a good New York Deli vs a Montreal Style Deli...I will start in General Foods.

In summary: Kaplan's = good NY Deli + Meat is good.

PHATS = great Deli food experience but is Montreal style.

Definition of Meats needs some work and a lot more research!

[Ling]

Just to clarify:  I originally asked about steamed brisket in a NY style deli.  Not about any type of cured meat - not pastrami, not corned beef, not Montreal smoked meat. 

←

There was a stand selling steamed brisket (I think I overheard the owner tell a customer it's Montreal style, though) for $15 a pound in the Granville Island Market today...I forget the name of the company, but it is located near the bakery that's near the Stock Market.

Edited February 26, 2005 by Ling (log)

[nwyles]

Just to clarify:  I originally asked about steamed brisket in a NY style deli.  Not about any type of cured meat - not pastrami, not corned beef, not Montreal smoked meat. 

←

There was a stand selling steamed brisket (I think I overheard the owner tell a customer it's Montreal style, though) for $15 a pound in the Granville Island Market today...I forget the name of the company, but it is located near the bakery that's near the Stock Market.

←

J. Beethoven's - same kind that they sell at the Irish Heather !!

Edited February 26, 2005 by nwyles (log)

[Ling]

^In that case, the sample that I ate at J. Beethoven's was flavourless.

KIDDING!

[Vancouver]

Thanks Ling! I'll see if I spot it next time I'm at the market.

Cheers!

[canucklehead]

Ling - they also sell Montreal smoked meat at Siegel's on Granville Island (and at all their locations). They reheat it by steaming it (not microwaved). Now - I don't know about authenticity - but it is very good and they have it shipped in from Montreal.

Bonus points - it does'nt have that darkened doorway kind of after taste. Kidding!!

[HKDave]

Still laughing about the 'darkened door aftertaste'...

Its late so I will be brief...

PHATS is serving authentic Montreal Smoked Meat, some of the best I have ever had. It ranks with both Shwartz's and The Main.

←

[topic drift]Chef, on this we must disagree. Comperable to The Main, maybe, but not Schwartz's, in either texture, colour or flavour. Schwartz's is deeper red, less watery, slightly crumbly, more smokey and far spicier. Phat's is similar to the decent factory (Coorsh, etc) smoke meat served at restaurants all over Montreal, but it's not Schwartz.

The Main is useful if it's really cold and [theoretical situation] your hot new girlfriend, with whom you are willing to compromise your most fundimental principles in order to have conjugal relations, doesn't want to wait in the long line across the street at Schwartz.[/theoretical situation] But I'd dump her on the spot and wait in line at Schwartz.

YMMV. Amusing thread here (note the nature of the forum - I just found it on Google, honest!): http://www.merb.ca/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5851&page=2[/topic drift]

[canucklehead]

HK Dave

The thread you sent was an argument about smoked meat on an escort service review forum. Only in Montreal! Very Hilarious. Now about your personal life....

[Chef Fowke]

To make myself very clear...Kaplan's is the best NY Deli in Vancouver.

Sidebar: HKDAVE, fighting words! Their are those who believe in the Main. Some would even say Shwartz's is living off its reputation...

[HKDave]

Sidebar: HKDAVE, fighting words! Their are those who believe in the Main. Some would even say Shwartz's is living off its reputation...

←

...but they would obviously be under the influence of powerful narcotics.

Seriously, I was last at Schwartz's in October for my annual dose, and unless something has happened since then, they still rule. Their smoked meat (and fries, and pickles, and that thin-cut standing rib steak they do on the 'you could never get a permit for this today' charcoal grill at the counter) were as good as ever. My only observation was that 'medium' seemed leaner than it used to be.

I'll openly admit to being biased, I've been going there for 40 years. But I've tried many other places in Montreal. The lineups outside Schwartz's are there for a reason - and it sure ain't the fine service or snappy decor.

[Mooshmouse]

To repeat my comment in Brian's thread on the Montreal forum:

Good grief Charlie Brown! This afternoon's episode of "Into The Fire" on FoodTV Canada featured Carnegie Delicatessen and Restaurant. I have never seen sandwiches like those in my entire life. 6" to 8" high, 3 1/2 lbs of meat! Nothing short of extraordinary.

The owner's favourite saying: "I only have two rules. First, you can't leave until you finish what's on your plate. Second, if I can see an empty plate, then I know I've done something wrong."

[Ling]

^Mooshmouse likes 6-8" of meat, weighing in at 3 1/2 lbs.

I remember that episode too. Maybe if I ate it very, very slowly, I could finish it.

[jamiemaw]

^Mooshmouse likes 6-8" of meat, weighing in at 3 1/2 lbs.

←

Gosh, where do you put it all?

[DarkDante]

I think Katz's corned beef and pastrami in New York is "da best". It is so moist and tender and only sliced by hand by the butchers there. Remember to order it extra juicy and tip them, so that you will get extra meat in your sandwich. That and a glass of egg cream is the NY Deli experience.

On a side note, does anyone know of any place in Vancouver that does egg creams?

[ckwok]

Hard to believe it but true I had a very decent smoked meat sandwich tonight, of all places, "the new costco in Langley".

For 5 bucks there was quite a bit of meat that comes from Dunn's in montreal. It was probably prepackaged and steamed but I can attest it was had just the right amount of fat and the meat was authentic.

I've been looking for a place out here that can match places in Montreal or even Toronto to no avail. Tried kaplans and it wasn't bad but the size of the sandwich was pretty small compared to the stuff you get out east.

In Toronto we used to go to a few places where the sandwiches were as big as the ones at Carnegies in New York.

Chester

[Vancouver]

On a side note, does anyone know of any place in Vancouver that does egg creams?

Haven't seen them served anywhere, but they are easy to make at home. Just take some very cold whole milk and put it into a glass. Add seltzer (don't use club soda - use seltzer). Try to pour the seltzer "roughly" to make things foam up more. If you happen to have a seltzer bottle that works best with the additional pressure. After it has foamed up and put a nice head on the top add chocolate syrup and stir with a long spoon. Don't mix the chocolate into the head to give that nice white top and chocolate soda below.

Enjoy!

[DarkDante]

Haven't seen them served anywhere, but they are easy to make at home.  Just take some very cold whole milk and put it into a glass.  Add seltzer (don't use club soda - use seltzer).  Try to pour the seltzer "roughly" to make things foam up more.  If you happen to have a seltzer bottle that works best with the additional pressure.  After it has foamed up and put a nice head on the top add chocolate syrup and stir with a long spoon.  Don't mix the chocolate into the head to give that nice white top and chocolate soda below. 

Enjoy!

←

Thanks, I'm going to try that tonight!

[Vancouver]

Do report back! (But maybe in a separate thread to avoid drift!)

Cheers!

[canucklehead]

Had lunch a few weeks back at Kaplan's on Oak Street - and I had forgotten what a nice spot it was. Bustling but not crazy busy and the service was prompt and old school.

It was also nice to have the option of having smaller portions. Though the mile high sandwhiches always look impressive in NYC - even attempting to finish one is grueling. Split a sampler that included chopped liver, smoked meat, and pastrami.

I probably liked the chopped liver the most - fluffy and flavorful. The real disappointment was the Challah bread it was served on - it was straight from the fridge cold and hard. Not good.

I think that I saw that they had egg creams on the menu - but not sure. Next time I'll add a matzoh ball soup to round everthing out.

[~cayenne~]

Had lunch a few weeks back at Kaplan's on Oak Street - and I had forgotten what a nice spot it was.  Bustling but not crazy busy and the service was prompt and old school.

It was also nice to have the option of having smaller portions.  Though the mile high sandwhiches always look impressive in NYC - even attempting to finish one is grueling.  Split a sampler that included chopped liver, smoked meat, and pastrami.

I probably liked the chopped liver the most - fluffy and flavorful.  The real disappointment was the Challah bread it was served on - it was straight from the fridge cold and hard.  Not good.

I think that I saw that they had egg creams on the menu - but not sure.  Next time I'll add a matzoh ball soup to round everthing out.

←

I'm thinking, I miss Mooshmouse's reviews (Joie was so elloquent. and delighttfully descriptive, however, since she is not able to fulfill her prior highly esteemed role, you would be, in my estimation, an excellent replacement. Have you considered the possibility?

[canucklehead]

I'm thinking, I miss Mooshmouse's reviews (Joie was so elloquent. and delighttfully descriptive, however, since she is not able to fulfill  her prior highly esteemed role, you would be,  in my estimation, an excellent replacement.  Have  you considered the  possibility?

←

You give a guy with an overactive appetite, an old digital camera and a big mouth too much credit. Frankly - I love reading about other's experiences and opinions - and if there is a disagreement - all the more fun. I hope everyone keeps on posting (and then posts some more).

[jahvay]

Well, It with great pleasure that I can share some thoughts on this great debate, as important as the bagel debate ( St. Viateur vs. Fairmont), or the latke debate( apple sauce vs. sour cream).

Firstly, I worked in both Schwartz's, Le Main (aka. The Main), and the Brown Derby. It is my claim to fame that I spent time at SCWARTZ'S LE HEBRAIQUE. The Derby was a bit like the old Kaplans before the new kids took it over and moved into the 21st century. As a nice jewish boy growing up in Vancouver, I remember eating Jewish Deli food there that was authentic, but never great. It was for Alte Kackers ( Old Shitters) who did not want to eat anything that would make them repeat, fart, or give them gas. Not too much of this and none of that. We went there because we could hang out with Mrs Goldberg, Joe, Sam, and all of the other members of the tribe. It was good, just not great. Unfortunately all of the Derby's customers were passing on, so it closed. Luckily Kaplans reinvented itself so that it could live on.

I started my Montreal experience in the early 90's working as a manager at The Main. The Baby back Ribs, and the Latkes were great. The service old school, and the smoked meat was pinker than Schwartz's across the street, but lacked the schmek (taste). The main reason you went to The Main was because it did not have a line up, and the service was more friendly. If you wanted your server to give you respect you went to the Main. If you wanted the BBBBBEST smoked meat in Canada you went to Schwartz's, and took the abuse. It was worth it.

After my stints at the Brown Derby and the Main, I finaly got a gig at Smoke Meat Heaven. I wore Johnny, the Boss, down and he gave me a job as a cashier. Not the best job, but I got to go in the back and slice of a corner of the briskets as they came out of the smoker, a whole day before the public got at it. That my friends is what it was about. It was soooo good as it was resting.

The smoked meat at Scwartz's is OLD FASIONED which is darker red, and tastier than the pink stuff we see around here, and many places in Montreal. The smoke meat cutters in Montreal are Gods of the biz, and get paid better than him also. Next time you are there, forget the platter(build your own sandwich), because the cutter knows how to make the sandwich the perfect thing it is. You my friend saved yourself a couple bucks but its not the same. Order it Medium fat, and don't be picky about this and that. "i'll have a Medium fat, with a half sour pickle, and a Chery coke". Leave him a tip if you are planning to go back within the next 4 decades. If you are a schmuk, they may pile a bunch of the spice and debris into your sandwich to give you a bit of payback. And if you ask for desert, they will give you the Bill. I don't mean to brag but last time I was there they would not let me pay. I was feeling like a macher that day.

I could go on , so I will...

The best mustard is cheap yellow deli mustard. If they offer you hot, it aint the good stuff.

I think that the pastrami at Kaplans is superior to their smoked meat is because it is darker, and tastier, almost like Old fashioned, but not.

NOW TO THE REAL REASON THAT THE WEST IS GETTING F@CKED BY THE EAST!!!!!!!!!

Go to the market/deli, and ask for some smoked meat. Ask for it sliced, or ask for a brisket. If you get a brisket, you are only getting HALF OF THE F#CKING BRISKET. I'm sory. I'm getting worked up. The brisket has 2 ends, the fatty end, and the lean end. A good cutter will work off both ends to make the sandwich that has been requested. You ask for lean, you get one end. You ask for fatty, or Med fatty, and you get the other end. You ask for it extra lean, with hot english mustard, and not too much bread, you get all the shite that is hidden under the pile that he needs to get rid off. Don't be a Schmendrick. I digressed...

Some @#$#%ing creep in Winnipeg is cutting the briskets in half, and keeping the good end for the real jews in Manitoba, and east. He sends the lean end out West. The yuppee Yids in Vancouver have to eat the lean end. They probably are happy about it but it did not help at my poor fathers wake that I had to serve the crew lean, pink smoked meat. Oh by the way I am Jewish so don't send the JDL to my house. So it is near impossible to buy some good fatty brisket so you can steam it for 1 1/2 to 2 hous to get in good(hint). Oh by the way Chaim 3:16 sez that if you nuke the smoked meat, you will not go to smoked meat heaven.

So I will now go to bed and sleep well. They say never eat smoked meat before you go to bed. It will give you nightmares. All of the smoke, nitrates, and salt. But you have just drank your way up and down Blvd. St Laurent. You have got to end your night at Schwartz's if it is before 1:30 or else you can hang out with the drunken party crowd at Le Main for an all nighter.

Regards, thank you for letting me go on and on...

[gerald]

Well, It with great pleasure that I can share some thoughts on this great debate,  as important as the bagel debate ( St. Viateur vs. Fairmont), or the latke debate( apple sauce vs. sour cream).

Firstly, I worked in both Schwartz's, Le Main (aka. The Main), and the Brown Derby.  It is my claim to fame that I spent time at SCWARTZ'S LE HEBRAIQUE.  The Derby was a bit like the old Kaplans before the new kids took it over and moved into the 21st century.  As a nice jewish boy growing up in Vancouver, I remember eating Jewish Deli food there that was authentic, but never great.  It was for Alte Kackers ( Old Shitters) who did not want to eat anything that would make them repeat, fart, or give them gas.  Not too much of this and none of that.  We went there because we could hang out with Mrs Goldberg, Joe, Sam, and all of the other members of the tribe.  It was good, just not great.  Unfortunately all of the Derby's customers were passing on, so it closed.  Luckily Kaplans reinvented itself so that it could live on.

I started my Montreal experience in the early 90's working as a manager at The Main.  The Baby back Ribs, and the Latkes were great.  The service old school, and the smoked meat was pinker than Schwartz's across the street, but lacked the schmek (taste).  The main reason you went to The Main was because it did not have a line up, and the service was more friendly.  If you wanted your server to give you respect you went to the Main.  If you wanted the BBBBBEST smoked meat in Canada you went to Schwartz's, and took the abuse.  It was worth it. 

After my stints at the Brown Derby and the Main, I finaly got a gig at Smoke Meat Heaven.  I wore Johnny, the Boss, down and he gave me a job as a cashier.  Not the best job, but I got to go in the back and slice of a corner of the briskets as they came out of the smoker, a whole day before the public got at it.  That my friends is what it was about.  It was soooo good as it was resting.

The smoked meat at Scwartz's is OLD FASIONED which is darker red, and tastier than the pink stuff we see around here, and many places in Montreal.  The smoke meat cutters in Montreal are Gods of the biz, and get paid better than him also.  Next time you are there,  forget the platter(build your own sandwich), because the cutter knows how to make the sandwich the perfect thing it is.  You my friend saved yourself a couple bucks but its not the same.  Order it Medium fat, and don't be picky about this and that.  "i'll have a Medium fat, with a half sour pickle, and a Chery coke".  Leave him a tip if you are planning to go back within the next 4 decades.  If you are a schmuk, they may pile a bunch of the spice and debris into your sandwich to give you a bit of payback.  And if you ask for desert, they will give you the Bill.  I don't mean to brag but last time I was there they would not let me pay.  I was feeling like a macher that day. 

I could go on , so I will...

The best mustard is cheap yellow deli mustard.  If they offer you hot, it aint the good stuff.

I think that the pastrami at Kaplans is superior to their smoked meat is because it is darker, and tastier, almost like Old fashioned, but not.

NOW TO THE REAL REASON THAT THE WEST IS GETTING F@CKED BY THE EAST!!!!!!!!!

Go to the market/deli, and ask for some smoked meat.  Ask for it sliced, or ask for a brisket.  If you get a brisket, you are only getting HALF OF THE F#CKING BRISKET.  I'm sory.  I'm getting worked up.  The brisket has 2 ends, the fatty end, and the lean end.  A good cutter will work off both ends to make the sandwich that has been requested.  You ask for lean, you get one end.  You ask for fatty, or Med fatty, and you get the other end.  You ask for it extra lean, with hot english mustard, and not too much bread, you get all the shite that is hidden under the pile that he needs to get rid off.  Don't be a Schmendrick.  I digressed...

Some @#$#%ing creep in Winnipeg is cutting the briskets in half, and keeping the good end for the real jews in Manitoba, and east.  He sends the lean end out West.  The yuppee Yids in Vancouver have to eat the lean end.  They probably are happy about it but it did not help at my poor fathers wake that I had to serve the crew lean, pink smoked meat.  Oh by the way I am Jewish so don't send the JDL to my house.  So it is near impossible to buy some good fatty brisket so you can steam it for 1 1/2 to 2 hous to get in good(hint).  Oh by the way Chaim 3:16 sez that if you nuke the smoked meat, you will not go to smoked meat heaven.

So I will now go to bed and sleep well.  They say never eat smoked meat before you go to bed.  It will give you nightmares.  All of the smoke, nitrates, and salt.  But you have just drank your way up and down Blvd. St Laurent.  You have got to end your night at Schwartz's if it is before 1:30 or else you can hang out with the drunken party crowd at Le Main for an all nighter.

Regards, thank you for letting me go on and on...

←

As a jewish kid who grew up in toronto, from heavy montreal lineage (both literally and figuratively) the only thing I can add to that was on my 4x times a year trips to montreal to see the machatunim (family) we would go to schwartz's or the snowden deli and my father would always order either smoked meat, cold and lean (years later when I asked him why he said simple, when you have cold and lean they have to give you the newest stuff out of the smokers, if they try to give you the old stuff it will be dried out) or tongue, from the tip end (i could handle him ordering tongue, but it always got me when he said "from the tip end")

As for the cutting, when we opened vera's in kits we started makng out own authentic corned beef from an old family recipe. When I told my dad all he said was "don't f**k up the cutting"

now, if only i could get a good party sandwich in this town (to dream, to dream)

As for the meat in general in this city, injecting of liquid smoke and and other liquids to speed the process up DOES NOT MAKE a great smoked meat.

[gerald]

Well, It with great pleasure that I can share some thoughts on this great debate,  as important as the bagel debate ( St. Viateur vs. Fairmont), or the latke debate( apple sauce vs. sour cream).

Firstly, I worked in both Schwartz's, Le Main (aka. The Main), and the Brown Derby.  It is my claim to fame that I spent time at SCWARTZ'S LE HEBRAIQUE.  The Derby was a bit like the old Kaplans before the new kids took it over and moved into the 21st century.  As a nice jewish boy growing up in Vancouver, I remember eating Jewish Deli food there that was authentic, but never great.  It was for Alte Kackers ( Old Shitters) who did not want to eat anything that would make them repeat, fart, or give them gas.  Not too much of this and none of that.  We went there because we could hang out with Mrs Goldberg, Joe, Sam, and all of the other members of the tribe.  It was good, just not great.  Unfortunately all of the Derby's customers were passing on, so it closed.  Luckily Kaplans reinvented itself so that it could live on.

I started my Montreal experience in the early 90's working as a manager at The Main.  The Baby back Ribs, and the Latkes were great.  The service old school, and the smoked meat was pinker than Schwartz's across the street, but lacked the schmek (taste).  The main reason you went to The Main was because it did not have a line up, and the service was more friendly.  If you wanted your server to give you respect you went to the Main.  If you wanted the BBBBBEST smoked meat in Canada you went to Schwartz's, and took the abuse.  It was worth it. 

After my stints at the Brown Derby and the Main, I finaly got a gig at Smoke Meat Heaven.   I wore Johnny, the Boss, down and he gave me a job as a cashier.  Not the best job, but I got to go in the back and slice of a corner of the briskets as they came out of the smoker, a whole day before the public got at it.  That my friends is what it was about.  It was soooo good as it was resting.

The smoked meat at Scwartz's is OLD FASIONED which is darker red, and tastier than the pink stuff we see around here, and many places in Montreal.  The smoke meat cutters in Montreal are Gods of the biz, and get paid better than him also.  Next time you are there,  forget the platter(build your own sandwich), because the cutter knows how to make the sandwich the perfect thing it is.  You my friend saved yourself a couple bucks but its not the same.  Order it Medium fat, and don't be picky about this and that.  "i'll have a Medium fat, with a half sour pickle, and a Chery coke".  Leave him a tip if you are planning to go back within the next 4 decades.   If you are a schmuk, they may pile a bunch of the spice and debris into your sandwich to give you a bit of payback.  And if you ask for desert, they will give you the Bill.  I don't mean to brag but last time I was there they would not let me pay.  I was feeling like a macher that day. 

I could go on , so I will...

The best mustard is cheap yellow deli mustard.  If they offer you hot, it aint the good stuff.

I think that the pastrami at Kaplans is superior to their smoked meat is because it is darker, and tastier, almost like Old fashioned, but not.

NOW TO THE REAL REASON THAT THE WEST IS GETTING F@CKED BY THE EAST!!!!!!!!!

Go to the market/deli, and ask for some smoked meat.  Ask for it sliced, or ask for a brisket.  If you get a brisket, you are only getting HALF OF THE F#CKING BRISKET.  I'm sory.  I'm getting worked up.  The brisket has 2 ends, the fatty end, and the lean end.  A good cutter will work off both ends to make the sandwich that has been requested.  You ask for lean, you get one end.  You ask for fatty, or Med fatty, and you get the other end.  You ask for it extra lean, with hot english mustard, and not too much bread, you get all the shite that is hidden under the pile that he needs to get rid off.  Don't be a Schmendrick.  I digressed...

Some @#$#%ing creep in Winnipeg is cutting the briskets in half, and keeping the good end for the real jews in Manitoba, and east.  He sends the lean end out West.  The yuppee Yids in Vancouver have to eat the lean end.  They probably are happy about it but it did not help at my poor fathers wake that I had to serve the crew lean, pink smoked meat.  Oh by the way I am Jewish so don't send the JDL to my house.  So it is near impossible to buy some good fatty brisket so you can steam it for 1 1/2 to 2 hous to get in good(hint).  Oh by the way Chaim 3:16 sez that if you nuke the smoked meat, you will not go to smoked meat heaven.

So I will now go to bed and sleep well.  They say never eat smoked meat before you go to bed.  It will give you nightmares.  All of the smoke, nitrates, and salt.  But you have just drank your way up and down Blvd. St Laurent.  You have got to end your night at Schwartz's if it is before 1:30 or else you can hang out with the drunken party crowd at Le Main for an all nighter.

Regards, thank you for letting me go on and on...

←

As a jewish kid who grew up in toronto, from heavy montreal lineage (both literally and figuratively) the only thing I can add to that was on my 4x times a year trips to montreal to see the machatunim (family) we would go to schwartz's or the snowden deli and my father would always order either smoked meat, cold and lean (years later when I asked him why he said simple, when you have cold and lean they have to give you the newest stuff out of the smokers, if they try to give you the old stuff it will be dried out) or tongue, from the tip end (i could handle him ordering tongue, but it always got me when he said "from the tip end")

As for the cutting, when we opened vera's in kits we started makng out own authentic corned beef from an old family recipe. When I told my dad all he said was "don't f**k up the cutting"

now, if only i could get a good party sandwich in this town (to dream, to dream)

As for the meat in general in this city, injecting of liquid smoke and and other liquids to speed the process up DOES NOT MAKE a great smoked meat.

←

ps ditto on the cheap yellow mustard

[canucklehead]

So - is the Pastami at Kaplan's the best bet going? You guys rock - Hava Nagila!