Disinfecting the Kitchen: [How] Do You Do This?

[Boris_A]

....for most people, our immune systems are a hell of a lot stronger than we seem to think they are.

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Actually, too much hygiene (constant chemical disinfection) weakens the immune system. Medical studies showed that kids playing in "dirty" surroundings (farms with animals, for example) have a siginifictantly stronger immune system and are less prone to allergies than others. The immune system needs sufficient exchange with unfriendly microrganims to become adapted. A question of balance, it seems.

[NulloModo]

....for most people, our immune systems are a hell of a lot stronger than we seem to think they are.

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Actually, too much hygiene (constant chemical disinfection) weakens the immune system. Medical studies showed that kids playing in "dirty" surroundings (farms with animals, for example) have a siginifictantly stronger immune system and are less prone to allergies than others. The immune system needs sufficient exchange with unfriendly microrganims to become adapted. A question of balance, it seems.

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I completely agree. I am a band director at a middle/elementary school, so I am constantly exposed to lots of germs. I remember getting very sick while I was doing my student teaching, but since then, nothing. It is one of those cases of 'what doesn't kill you, just makes you stronger'.

[Shalmanese]

Food safety needs to be put into perspective, I know that at least quite a few people, after seeing Alton's stock show, go to the whole rigamorole of chilling stock in coolers with crushed ice and ice bullets etc. yet I wonder how many of them are quite happy to leave chicken soup on the rangetop while they take the 30 minutes or so to eat dinner? Personally, I feel that if I can afford to leave chicken soup out for an hour, then I can afford to leave chicken stock out for the same amount of time.

It just doesn't make sense to focus on things that only have a 0.001% chance of killing you and then ignoring things that have a 0.1% chance of killing you.

[Really Nice!]

A mixture of bleach and water loses it's sanitizing abilities after 4 hours. Also, use water that is under 75F. Hotter water breaks bleach down enough to where it's useless.

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My bad. It's been a while since I looked at my book and I was going from memory. For chlorine bleach the general guidelines are:

50 parts per million for immersion or for spray cleaning

Temperature needs to be above 75F and below 115F (chlorine evaporates above 115F)

Contact time must be at least 7 seconds

pH must be below 8.0 (note that detergents raise the pH so rinse well before applying bleach)

Chlorine bleach quickly becomes inactive when reacting to organic contaminants in the water solution (this almost always occurs with in 4 hours after making and using the solution

Source: ServSafe Coursebook. ISBN 1 58280 015 4

[WHT]

Some states ban its use as a sanatizer because people use it incorrectly. IE right out of the jug. 4-5% is all that is needed as some others have pointed out.

[chuck]

When sanitizing a surface what exactly are the detriments to using a higher solution of bleach? Besides the smell that won't come off of hands and the dry skin later. Say it's stainless steel. If it's wiped down with a higher solution, and then the surface dries, is it contaminated with bleach to the point that it is dangerous? Doesn't it evaporate if it isn't a porous surface?

I wouldn't mind hearing the answer from MGLloyd, as s/he is the only one so far who has presented any credentials applicable to our discussion.

[merrybaker]

I looked at my book and I was going from memory. For chlorine bleach the general guidelines are:

50 parts per million for immersion or for spray cleaning

Temperature needs to be above 75F and below 115F (chlorine evaporates above 115F)

Contact time must be at least 7 seconds

pH must be below 8.0 (note that detergents raise the pH so rinse well before applying bleach)

Chlorine bleach quickly becomes inactive when reacting to organic contaminants in the water solution (this almost always occurs with in 4 hours after making and using the solution

Source: ServSafe Coursebook. ISBN 1 58280 015 4

Thanks for looking that up. If we're gonna do it, might as well do it right!

I know there's something to be said for letting a little dirt into our lives, but with new strains of e-coli out there that don't just upset the stomach, but can be deadly, why take a chance?

[slbunge]

I wouldn't mind hearing the answer from MGLloyd, as s/he is the only one so far who has presented any credentials applicable to our discussion.

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Damn. But, I'm so good at the I'm-no-doctor-but-I-play-one-on-TV responses.

[Pan]

Actually,  too much hygiene (constant chemical disinfection) weakens the immune system. Medical studies showed that kids playing in "dirty" surroundings (farms with animals, for example) have a siginifictantly stronger immune system and are less prone to allergies than others. The immune system needs sufficient exchange with unfriendly microrganims to become adapted.  A question of balance, it seems.

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Agreed, but I'm not sure how allergies fit into the equation. Allergies occur because the immune system is reacting to non-pathogenic proteins. In a way, couldn't it be argued that the immune system of people with allergies is too strong?

[jess mebane]

Ok. Hot water and dish soap is all a good kitchen needs to get clean. Avoid antibacterial stuff, as you don't want your germs to grow smarter and faster than your antibodies. And if you're still feeling OCD, mix a 4:1 sol'n of water and vinegar in a spray bottle and spritz down the cutting boards.

[Boris_A]

@Pan: that's what some medical studies say. All I know from immunologists here is that they are disencouraging from using desinfectants for regular cleansing tasks in households.

Dilettant as I am, I think the following, general statment holds very true for the immune system: "Things are always more complicated than we think". Maybe the too strong reaction of the immune system is caused by stress of a less trained immune system? As far as I know, there's no conclusive theory about the cause of allergies.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[redfox]

If I cleaned my kitchen with bleach, all my clothes would have hideous bleach spots. Is it really so standard? We don't eat meat, so maybe that's part of it.

[battlepanda]

I do home brewing and sanitize all equipment with a proprietary cleanser called "b-brite". It's a powder that I stir into water at the rate of one tablespoon per gallon. Sometimes after I brew I save the b-brite solution and use it in spray bottles to clean my kitchen. It seems to work well at loosening gunk and has no offensive odor unlike bleach. Is this a safe/effective use or should I stick to the ol' bleachy water?

I tried to look up what is in it, but couldn't find more information beyond the fact that b-brite is some kind of oxygen activated cleanser.

[MGLloyd]

MGLloyd (Michael Lloyd) is a he, and bears a startling resemblance to 'Lionel Hutz' of the Simpsons, except for having five fingers on each hand, no hair on the top and a grayish-pinkish skin tone rather than goldenrod.

I would be concerned over using a high concentration bleach solution to sterilize a food contact surface without a subsequent rinse or wipedown. Although the liquid solution may dry, I suspect there might still be chlorine present on the surface for some time until it degrades. If I could still smell chlorine, I would think that it is still present on the surface and could contaminate any food in contact. In addition, in high enough concentrations and with sufficient contact time, bleach solutions can attack some metals.

And I am a homebrewer for a couple of decades. B-Brite is a cleaner only. It is not a sanitizer. I have used an iodophor sanitizer for my homebrewing equipment for many years. It rinses clean and is relatively non-toxic. If you continue to use only B-Brite and not another sanitizing agent, you are running a distinct risk of contaminating an entire batch of homebrew.

[maggiethecat]

Ok.  Hot water and dish soap is all a good kitchen needs to get clean.  Avoid antibacterial stuff, as you don't want your germs to grow smarter and faster than your antibodies.  And if you're still feeling OCD, mix a 4:1 sol'n of water and vinegar in a spray bottle and spritz down the cutting boards.

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The Jess speaks, and I'm with her all the way--soap and hot water. No antibacterial anything, for the reasons she decribes. Use wooden boards, try not to cross-contaminate, and if you're a home cook your family will prosper.

(I understand that restaurants have a higher standard of compluance.)

[mb7o]

I know there's something to be said for letting a little dirt into our lives, but with new strains of e-coli out there that don't just upset the stomach, but can be deadly, why take a chance?

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have you considred that these may be appearing *because* of things like excessive use of antibacterial agents? soap & water is greate to get rid of most things (act like a third-world person & die like one-santiation related disease is quite common there), but attempting to sanitize everything but imperfectly may let only the strongest 'germs' survive. Of course, improperly used antibiotis are most likely a far greater cause of this than any food sanitation issue.

Edited January 24, 2005 by mb7o (log)

[winesonoma]

I know there's something to be said for letting a little dirt into our lives, but with new strains of e-coli out there that don't just upset the stomach, but can be deadly, why take a chance?

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have you considred that these may be appearing *because* of things like excessive use of antibacterial agents? soap & water to get rid of most things (act like a third-world person & die like one-santiation related disease is quite common there), but attempting to sanitize everything but imperfectly may let only the strongest 'germs' survive.

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At the winery we sanitize everything with Sodium Meta Bi Sulfite and Citric Acid. Boy don't have a cut on your hand when you reach in there.

[battlepanda]

Interesting...I have made about 6 batches of beer to date with no problems. Maybe I've just been lucky. Ugh! Sanitizing the equipment is onerous enough as it is. I don't think I can get myself to brew if I had to add another step.

By the way, I think b-brite is a great cleaner all around the house. It's gentle and gets rid of much scumminess. Certainly smells better than bleach.

[jsolomon]

There are quite a number of reasons to use a quaternary ammonia compound or a phenolic (or, to rotate between the two) for your disinfection needs. However, for the household, nearly every basic disinfection/sanitization/cleaning need can be fulfilled with common ammonia, dishsoap (e.g. Dawn, Ivory, Palmolive), and ethyl/isopropyl alcohol, and good hot water.

The simple fact is, we need a certain low level of innervation of our immune system to keep it from overreacting when it shouldn't and from underreacting when it should react. When I homebrew, I generally sterilize with metabisulfite or common household bleach. But, that and canning are the ONLY times I currently sterilize (except at work, where I work with parenteral drug production and research).

Given my active lifestyle, I know I have plenty of dirt in my diet. I run. I cycle through the winter. I eat MRE's in the field in the Army, and you know that when we drop our burrito out there, we just brush off the worst of the dirt and chow back down. The only sick days I have missed from work in the past year have been mental health days.

Also, according to here common household bleach is quite alkaline. So, if left to its own devices and exposed to air, the carbon dioxide which is acidic will react with the basic bleach and tend to degrade it. However, to have a pH 1 full unit higher than ammonia means that it will take a rather long time. Over the course of 7-14 days you may see some degrading in a 1:10 solution of bleach left in an open container, but in a closed spray bottle, there should be little enough transport of carbon dioxide that one can neglect any degradation it might cause.

[saskanuck]

We sanitize our home wine making supplies with sodium metabisulfite, and boy, do the sinks shine after we're finished. I'm sure it does a good job of cleaning out all the gunk in the pipes too. You really don't want to get that stuff on your hands.

I use hot water and dishwashing soap to clean my kitchen, and sometimes use those kitchen Lysol wipes on my counter after cutting up chicken and meat.

The only antibacterial soap I have in the house is the soap in the main bathroom for my grubby little boys to use after they've been at school and daycare all day.

I don't take any unnecessary chances with food safety, but I don't use bleach in my kitchen either. I think it's much too harsh and aggravates my hand eczema like you wouldn't believe.

I just got back from a Scout troop sleepover where the standard dishwashing routine includes using bleach in both the washing water and rinsing water for the dishes. I didn't bring rubber gloves and my hands are an absolute mess. It'll take weeks for them to clear up now.

One thing I don't understand is why scented bleach wouldn't work the same way as regular bleach. Guess I'll be buying the regular kind from now on, not that it makes a lot of difference anyway.

Edited January 25, 2005 by saskanuck (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Ok.  Hot water and dish soap is all a good kitchen needs to get clean.  Avoid antibacterial stuff, as you don't want your germs to grow smarter and faster than your antibodies.  And if you're still feeling OCD, mix a 4:1 sol'n of water and vinegar in a spray bottle and spritz down the cutting boards.

I love vinegar. It probably wouldn't work for disinfecting, because of the possibility of residual stickiness. (How's that for a chemically correct term?) But we keep a vin/water solution in a spray bottle in the winery kitchen for removing those nasty permament-lipstick marks on tasting glasses, and I always keep some in the house--I can soak a burnt pan with vinegar and it loosens the char, I use it to soak out the crust that SO left in the blender, ditto for crusted bread on the bread machine paddle, and if you throw a cup in the dishwasher rinse cycle everything comes out sparkly clean. Very useful, very natural, very cheap.

I was asking someone what I could use to clean my white kitchen tile grout without stripping the finish off our old, hand-painted tiles. The answer was old-fashioned Borax. What is borax, and is it useful for disinfecting? Can I use it on cutting boards?

[FistFullaRoux]

Drug resistant bacteria and eColi aside, Think of it this way -

What did your grandmother use? Did you ever once get sick eating her food? Did her house ever look or smell grimy? Hot water, diswashing liquid, and the occasional bit of Ajax or Comet for stubborn spots did everything in the kitchen. Maybe Pledge for the picture frames. But the dishes were washed immediately after a meal, plates were cleared as soon as possible, leftovers were dealt with, and the garbage was taken out without delay. There's the difference, I think.

People are too paranoid. I grew up on a farm. I'm not allergic to anything - maybe a little sensitive to aspirin, but that's it. One of my nephews who plays outside and with other kids is allergic to nothing. Another nephew who lives in an urban environment, and has very little contact with kids has an allergy list a mile long.

[Rebel Rose]

Right. I'm a farm kid too with a hearty immune system myself. However, some people cannot or prefer not to take those risks. I think the question is not "To Bleach, or Not To Bleach." The question is, if we're in the mood to disinfect, what's the best thing to use?

God only knows, I'd love to have each cutting board with its own use for vegetables, raw, and cooked meat. I always start out that way. But when we have impromptu barbecues the boards get passed around like plates and end up abraded and gummy with meat fiber and blood. Blood all over the white tile counter and white grout. Stinky prawn shells in the garbage. People are standing around the butcher block counter in the kitchen, while half a dozen tick-infested labradors and springers have snuck into the living room with their gummy treats from the grill and are gnawing them on the couches and carpets. The cats are climbing into the pantry to hide from the dogs. The kids have their plates of food in the kids' room, where we will find plates on the floor and under the futon the next day (mysteriously licked clean) and unidentifiable crumblets everywhere.

So in spite of the fact that I have a strong resistance to invading bio-organisms, I also get the urge to DISINFECT! Help!!

[MGLloyd]

Interesting...I have made about 6 batches of beer to date with no problems. Maybe I've just been lucky. Ugh! Sanitizing the equipment is onerous enough as it is. I don't think I can get myself to brew if I had to add another step.

By the way, I think b-brite is a great cleaner all around the house. It's gentle and gets rid of much scumminess. Certainly smells better than bleach.

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The companion to B-Brite is C-Brite: a chlorine based no-rinse cleaner and sanitizer. So if you wanted to clean and sanitize in one step, I would use C-brite. I, myself, having had a five gallon carboy go bad from an infection, use liquid dishwashing soap and hot water to clean, and then do a sterilizing soak in iodophor solution followed by a hot water rinse or I rinse by running everything through the dishwasher on a rinse only cycle with heated drying.

PS: Oddly enough, on the carboy that went bad, I caught one of my dogs in the garage licking the carboy neck right where the airlock was. This was less than a day after I pitched the yeast and there may have been some residual wort on the carboy neck. I removed the airlock and swabbed the carboy neck in and out with absolute alcohol as a sterilizing agent. I always wondered if the batch going bad had anything to do with the dog, having the airlock off for ten minutes while I sanitized the neck, or if it was just happenstance and I had a bad batch of yeast? I can tell you, when I saw the dog licking the carboy, I was tempted to trim the dog to fit in a petri dish and culture it for 48 hours.

Edited January 25, 2005 by MGLloyd (log)

[jsolomon]

The simple fact is, we will rarely be able to live in a sterile environment... and I can tell you that after having worked for much too long in sterile environments, they suck.

But, I've learned several strategies that I was already using, and FistFullaRoux already touched on them with his Grandma's house analogy.

First: we're never going to live in a sterile environment. Bacteria and fungi, even the pathological ones, have well-defined, necessary niches in the ecosystem.

Second: our bodies have evolved to coexist with these critters

Third: these critters exist where there is water and food and a nice environment, just like we do.

So, the best thing you can do to make sure that your house is inhospitable to them is to make sure that you don't have damp areas around, and that you don't leave bioburden (think trash) around for them to grow on. So, that means, wash and promptly allow your dishes to dry. Sweep your floors regularly. Wipe up spills.

If you have an suppressed or weakened immune system, please take precautions given to you by your current medical professional expert.

Also, to respond to what Rebel Rose commented on, vinegar will not leave a sticky residue. Pure vinegar is nearly as liquid as water. You also used to be able to find a cleaning strength vinegar that was 10% instead of the 5% cooking variety. I think Office Depot still might have it available in their cleaning section.