Why no engineered uber-fats

[Shalmanese]

It seems to me that with all the wonders of food science, one thing glaringly missing is tailor made fats and oils. Why haven't food scientists come up with a synthetic fat that is absolutely tasteless and has a smoke point that approaches the theoretical maximum (in fact, a fat with a smoke point higher than the boiling point would be a major advance and open up an entire new style of cooking).

Or maybe a 100% poly unsaturated oil for the health nuts.

[Jensen]

Why haven't food scientists come up with a synthetic fat ...

They have. It causes anal leakage.

[Devotay]

Nature has your answer - cook with grapeseed oil. It is virtually tasteless and has a very high smoke point.

The words "synthetic" and "food" should never be same sentence together.

[Shalmanese]

Whats wrong with synthetics? A chemical is a chemical is a chemical. It doesn't matter where it derives from. Synthetic vanilla essense is exactly the same as the "natural" stuff down to parts per million and, by logic, tastes exactly as good. Synthetic salt would be exactly the same as normal, un-iodized salt again down to parts per million.

Fat, as a molecule is slightly more complicated than either of them but not signficantly so. The fact that they have managed to make olestra yet not some of the presumably much simpler fats is odd.

And grapeseed oil is not the be all and end all by any means. It has a smoke point around the 450s which means that avocado oil beats it in the smoke point department and still contains about 5% saturated which could presumably be removed in synthetic fats.

But looking at grapeseed now has me confused as to how exactly saturation relates to smoke points. I originally thought that highly saturated fats would be more stable at high temperatures due to the close chemical bonding but it seems this is not the case.

[EdS]

Whats wrong with synthetics? A chemical is a chemical is a chemical. It doesn't matter where it derives from. Synthetic vanilla essense is exactly the same as the "natural" stuff down to parts per million and, by logic, tastes exactly as good. Synthetic salt would be exactly the same as normal, un-iodized salt again down to parts per million.

Synthetic vanillin tastes the same as naturally-derived vanillin but imitation vanilla doesn't taste the same as real vanilla because there are missing components. Vanilla isn't just vanillin. The same goes for comparing synthetic salt (sodium chloride) to sea salt which has added minerals. But I agree with your point. Everything in nature is just a set of chemicals. If you can recreate them completely, with nothing missing or extra, then the synthetic is the same as the natural. It's the differences we need to be concerned about, for both flavor and, more importantly, health. Thus, I'm not against synthetic ingredients but I am against nearly all the ones I know about.

Fat, as a molecule is slightly more complicated than either of them but not signficantly so. The fact that they have managed to make olestra yet not some of the presumably much simpler fats is odd.

And grapeseed oil is not the be all and end all by any means. It has a smoke point around the 450s which means that avocado oil beats it in the smoke point department and still contains about 5% saturated which could presumably be removed in synthetic fats.

But looking at grapeseed now has me confused as to how exactly saturation relates to smoke points. I originally thought that highly saturated fats would be more stable at high temperatures due to the close chemical bonding but it seems this is not the case.

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I don't know anything about olestra because it doesn't fill a personal need so I can't comment on it.

My concern about avocado oil is that highly unsaturated fats go rancid very easily and consuming rancid (oxidized) fats is not good. I'd say this problem outweighs any health benefit to consuming unsaturated versus saturated fats. I've read some of Dr. Weil's work and he advises that in the case of flaxseed oil, a very unsaturated oil, that it be purchased in small quantities and kept in the fridge to keep it from going rancid. I wonder how avocado oil compares. I don't find grapeseed to pose a special rancidity concern.

What are you doing that requires a high smokepoint? Ever see anyone cooking in one of those 100,000 BTU+ woks in a Chinese restaurant kitchen? You'll see flames here and there. I'm pretty sure they are going way past the smokepoint and hitting the flashpoint. I'm thinking that's not such a good thing for our health. Oh, and the smoke!

[Shalmanese]

Synthetic vanillin tastes the same as naturally-derived vanillin but imitation vanilla doesn't taste the same as real vanilla because there are missing components. Vanilla isn't just vanillin. The same goes for comparing synthetic salt (sodium chloride) to sea salt which has added minerals. But I agree with your point. Everything in nature is just a set of chemicals. If you can recreate them completely, with nothing missing or extra, then the synthetic is the same as the natural. It's the differences we need to be concerned about, for both flavor and, more importantly, health. Thus, I'm not against synthetic ingredients but I am against nearly all the ones I know about.

Yes, but in this case, its the impurities specifically that we want to get rid of. In terms of deep frying, it helps to think of oil as cookware rather than as an ingredient.

My concern about avocado oil is that highly unsaturated fats go rancid very easily and consuming rancid (oxidized) fats is not good. I'd say this problem outweighs any health benefit to consuming unsaturated versus saturated fats. I've read some of Dr. Weil's work and he advises that in the case of flaxseed oil, a very unsaturated oil, that it be purchased in small quantities and kept in the fridge to keep it from going rancid. I wonder how avocado oil compares. I don't find grapeseed to pose a special rancidity concern.

How about packaging 100% poly unsaturates in a one way valve, flexible airtight bag. That way, Assuming you store it away from light (opaque bag) and heat(in the fridge) and oxygen (airtight), rancidity should be drastically reduced and the health benifits would make it easier to market.

What are you doing that requires a high smokepoint? Ever see anyone cooking in one of those 100,000 BTU+ woks in a Chinese restaurant kitchen? You'll see flames here and there. I'm pretty sure they are going way past the smokepoint and hitting the flashpoint. I'm thinking that's not such a good thing for our health. Oh, and the smoke! 

Why not have a high smoke point? It gives you more uses out of the oil before it degrades, it allows for crisper searing and sauteing and gives you more leeway. In addition, it can be engineered to be completely flavourless so you have more control as to what flavours you want to introduce into the food.

[PCL]

It's simple. We do not have the right to play Creator. Once you try to fuck with nature she always bites back. Take the early petro-chemical industry and the mass spraying of people with DDT to remove parasites etc. for instance. We're paying for all that now. The cancer epidemic at the moment virtually guarantees 1 in 2 human males will get it, and 1 in 3 human females. We've fucked with the system enough no? Like the BZT scandal from Monsanto when they fed hormones to cows to exponentially increase milk production, and we end up with diseased pus infected udders leaking 'impurities' into the milk. Well, we put it there. And besides, the world is over producing milk at the moment anyway. But I digress...

Synthetic this, synthetic that, bullshit mate. We're all reaping the seeds of what we've sown.

So much more is wrecked to get those little 'impurities' out. Cook with love mate, cook with your heart, and don't forget flavour. All I want to saute with is olive oil and butter. Fats make things taste good in case any of us have forgotten, and different fats do different things.

If you want anal leakage fine, but don't press it on the masses, and for goodness sake, feed your children organic food.

[NulloModo]

I don't see a problem with synthetic foods, and the thought that 1 in 2 males will contract cancer is beyond ridiculous.

However, I am wondering if the lack of synthetic fats isn't just due to cost to develop something like that, and lack of a real demand. Let's look at some of the possible benefits:

Saturated vs. Unsaturated: There is increasing evidence being shown that saturated fats aren't in fact all that bad for us. The whole good fat vs. bad fat thing is, IMO, pretty overblown.

High Smoke Point: There are plenty of oils out there with smoke points high enough for most everyones use. Peanut oil is relatively cheap and has a smoke point high enough to deal with deep frying or sauteeing anything, and Grapeseed is out there if you really want those extra couple degrees worth of comfort.

Taste: Personally, I like that oils/fats have flavor. I keep a variety of oils/fats on hand, because different ones will add a different character to a dish. Using butter vs. olive oil vs. corn oil in different situations gives the dishes more depth, I don't see why you would want to cook in something flavorless.

Demand: A ton of the population is perfectly happy using canola oil, margarine, and crisco. There are tons of blatantly better options out there already, but that unholy triumvirate outsells them, so, I can't imagine a new oil on the seen getting enough attention to make it marketable.

[Shalmanese]

It's simple. We do not have the right to play Creator. Once you try to fuck with nature she always bites back. Take the early petro-chemical industry and the mass spraying of people with DDT to remove parasites etc. for instance. We're paying for all that now. The cancer epidemic at the moment virtually guarantees 1 in 2 human males will get it, and 1 in 3 human females. We've fucked with the system enough no? Like the BZT scandal from Monsanto when they fed hormones to cows to exponentially increase milk production, and we end up with diseased pus infected udders leaking 'impurities' into the milk. Well, we put it there. And besides, the world is over producing milk at the moment anyway. But I digress...

Synthetic this, synthetic that, bullshit mate. We're all reaping the seeds of what we've sown.

So much more is wrecked to get those little 'impurities' out. Cook with love mate, cook with your heart, and don't forget flavour. All I want to saute with is olive oil and butter. Fats make things taste good in case any of us have forgotten, and different fats do different things.

If you want anal leakage fine, but don't press it on the masses, and for goodness sake, feed your children organic food.

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Oh gawd, where to begin? Every time you touch a piece of meat to hot metal your fucking with nature. You think nature designed us to eat some 300+ different chemical compounds, at least a dozen or so known to be carciongenic and none of them encountered in a normal human diet more than 300,000 years ago? What about leaving foods deliberately to ferment(beer), rot (dry aged beef), denature (hard boiled eggs) or the myriad other chemical processes we use to manipulate raw ingredients into something that tastes pleasing.

The cancer "epidemic" is a direct result of us living longer. Put simply, we've run out of other things to die from so the only things left are cancer and heart diesese. We're not talking about proteins or genetics or anything complicated. Fats are just carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, arranged in a fancy shape. And a carbon atom is a carbon atom is a carbon atom. Theres no such thing as "organic carbon".

Saying frying at 375 in peanut oil is good enough because that's how we've always done it seems prematurely short sighted. Who knows what sort of chemical reactions we can get going at 500C or 700C or above?

And sure, I absolutely adore EVOO and butter and bacon fat and tallow and lard and all manners of lovely, flavourful fats. But at the same time, I also like the idea of a clean fat that lets the subtle elements of the food being fried shine through. I love stock too but I don't hesitate to use water when it's needed.

[Devotay]

Whats wrong with synthetics? A chemical is a chemical is a chemical. It doesn't matter where it derives from. Synthetic vanilla essense is exactly the same as the "natural" stuff down to parts per million and, by logic, tastes exactly as good. Synthetic salt would be exactly the same as normal, un-iodized salt again down to parts per million.

Oh, Jonny did you back the wrong horse.

It's not about that. Trying to define flavor using science is like trying to define love using science. I doubt that you would suggest that we manufature a drug that causes the exact same neurons to fire in our brains as do when we fall in love. Flavor is like that, it's a passionate emotional experience and, well, ain't nothin' like the real thing , baby.

Tell ya what, I cook with olive oil, butter, grapeseed oil, even lard sometimes. If it has negative effects on my heart, well, it has positive effects on my soul and I'd rather live a short meaningful life than a long boring one.

I'll take real life and real love over synthetic fat and love potion #9 any day.

[NulloModo]

It's not about that.  Trying to define flavor using science is like trying to define love using science.  I doubt that you would suggest that we manufature a drug that causes the exact same neurons to fire in our brains as do when we fall in love.  Flavor is like that, it's a passionate emotional experience and, well, ain't nothin' like the real thing , baby.

I'll take real life and real love over synthetic fat and love potion #9 any day.

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You know, if someone did develop that, it would sell like hotcakes, legal or illegal.

There is no reason not to look to science to improve upon things we already have, if the changes made can be seen as a clear improvement. I just don't see where there is need for improvement from the current oils we have availible to us. What's the point of frying something at 800 degrees when you can burn the outside before you finish cooking the middle already at 375?

I still don't buy the total lack of flavor being a good thing either, but then again, the only time I cook with water is when I'm baking, anything else stock is definately the way to go (heck, I should try baking with stock sometime...).

[WHT]

There are several companies that make engineered oils and additives. Everything from butter flavored grill lubricants to additives to extend the life of fry oil. The National Restaurant Review often has advertisements from several companies offering products that would fit this category. Granted I have yet to see anything that claims a smoke point of over 500 but that too me seems high enough for most applications.

[PCL]

OK, 1 in 2 might be a little too much, but, but I say... it's not genetics and proteins and running out of stuff to die of.

There are simply too many things out there that have been 'synthesised' and insufficient time has passed for us to fully appreciate or realise the side effects. Simple. Its like screwtop wines. We don't yet know how they will perform. Each human being has ingested so much crap by the time we're older, and who knows, the very substances keeping us alive longer could very well be the thing that's killing us later. Catch 22.

As for the atomic theory of food synthesis, yes a carbon atom is a carbon atom, but it's how the damn thing is combined with anything else that just might prove harmful

Slapping a piece of cow on a hot plate might seem to be fucking with nature to some, but really, its the orgasmic culmination of many millenia of foreplay. Developments, slow through human history, eventually lead to cuisine. It's like evolution. In fact, it is evolution according to some. It has progressed slowly to eventually reach the refined state its in and really, if your diet is well thought out, you don't die from it. EVERYONE eats cooked food these days, well, virtually, LOL.

If you're synthesising, you're taking great leaps that our stereoscopic vision and ambition simply cannot cash.

[rooftop1000]

I see this thread has digressed in the past few days but....just a moment ago saw a commercial for ENOVA oil.....

not sure what it does yet the website is ENOVAOIL.COM

T

[andiesenji]

To slow the oxidation and keep cooking oils from becoming rancid so rapidly, you can simply make sure the bottles are tightly closed and invert them. This effectively seals the contents away from ambient air as even the tightest closure will allow some air exchange unless vacuum sealed.

I have been doing this for years (with the inverted bottles in a container that insures that any small leaks are confined to it and do not anoint the cabinet shelf. They should also be kept away from light as that also tends to degrade the contents.

If you buy oil in large containers, transfer a small amount to keep out on the counter for ready use.

I also do not see any point of having an excessively high temp oil as when one reaches a certain point the food placed in the oil is incinerated rather than cooked and some foods, containing a certain level of moisture, can virtually explode.

If you doubt this, I can give you the name of a person who has a shrimp-shaped burn scar on his left cheek after dumping a handful of raw shrimp in the shell into oil that was much hotter than he thought. Several shrimp were blasted out of the wok and one happened to stick to his cheek long enough to cause a 3rd degree burn.

[EdS]

While I've never tried them in this application and I don't even know if they are food-safe, collapsable photo chemical storage bottles might work well for oils and maybe even wine. These bottles certainly help preserve darkroom chemicals which can oxidize quickly.

[squids]

I see this thread has digressed in the past few days but....just a moment ago saw a commercial for ENOVA oil.....

not sure what it does yet the website is ENOVAOIL.COM

T

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Very interesting, and tailor made it is...I just returned home from the grocery store and was looking for oil for popping corn, when I saw Enova on the shelf. I hadn't seen the commercial or heard of it before so I was intrigued, but dismissed it for myself since I'm allergic to soy (and therefore CAN'T eat microwave popcorn as it all is made with soybean oil. ) Enova is a not just a cross between soybean and canola oil, and seems like it might be a great product for those who can use it.

From the website and I'll try to post a picture of the label from the site as well...although this is a first for me and I'm not sure what I'm doing!

"What is Enova™ brand oil?

Enova oil is a new premium cooking oil consisting of high concentrations of diacylglycerol (DAG), a type of fat already found in small quantities in conventional cooking oils. The predominant form of DAG fat in Enova oil is metabolized differently by the body; instead of being stored as fat, the majority of DAG fat is immediately burned as energy. "

Sounds like an "engineered uber fat" to me, although it may not have the high smoke point. But as mentioned before, Grapeseed oil can always be used for those instances.

[EdS]

The predominant form of DAG fat in Enova oil is metabolized differently by the body; instead of being stored as fat, the majority of DAG fat is immediately burned as energy.

What happens if I chug a half-gallon of this stuff? Do I become a human space heater?

[Carlovski]

Why haven't food scientists come up with a synthetic fat ...

They have. It causes anal leakage.

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Nature has your answer - cook with grapeseed oil.  It is virtually tasteless and has a very high smoke point.

The words "synthetic" and "food" should never be same sentence together.

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I feel the same about 'Anal' and 'Leakage'

[PCL]

There's some scarey shit out there man.