Reviewing NYC Pizza

[Daniel]

Di Faras is my favorite too.. Place is great.

[Busboy]

Without sounding like a paranoid tourist, what are the odds of parking a luggage-laden Jeep on the same block as Patsy's in East Harlem, and emerging an hour later with windows, stereo and luggage still intact? Probably be around dusk.

My 2 cents on the pizzaria's discussed above:

Lombardi's: An excellent pie. I'm more instinctual than analytical when it comes to pizza, so I can offer no analysis except to say that when I bite into one, the brain says "this is a proper pie," and endorphines are released in significant quantities. Also, if you like dark, low-ceilinged room, flickering candles and cheap red wine by the caraffe, a great place to settle in for a bit.

Grimaldi's: A very good pizza, but somehow it didn't do it for me. Not sure what the difference was, but I recall the sauce as a little thin and acidic, and the crust slightly underdone.

Totonno's: Loved this place, despite the screw-top wine (definitely not Bonnie Doone). My favorite in the city, and well worth the subway ride -- particularly if you've a minde to work up an appetite on the boardwalk. Crust, sauce, topping...it just all came together. Another great one for atmosphere, too.

[ghostrider]

I'm sorry to say that as far as Lombardi's is concerned, I believe the Emperor (despite his thick toppings) has no clothes.

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Thick toppings? That's the last thing I'd have said about the pizzas I've had at Lombardi's. Which go back to a couple of years ago.

I know we've had a discussion on another thread as to whether Lombardi's has changed since I was last there, & I'm not seeking to resurrect that, it gets redundant.

But that statement is the clearest indication I've seen yet that their approach may have changed in some fundamental way.

[slkinsey]

Pan's comments, I think, come in the context of comparing Lombardi's to other NYC coal oven places like Patsy's East Harlem, not the local Ray's. Compared to typical American pizza, Lombardi's does an admirable job and is fairly sparing with the toppings. Compared to Patsy's, exactly the opposite.

FWIW, I probably went to Lombardi's around 15 years ago, and I don't get the sense that they're doing things all that differently now.

[Pan]

Without sounding like a paranoid tourist, what are the odds of parking a luggage-laden Jeep on the same block as Patsy's in East Harlem, and emerging an hour later with windows, stereo and luggage still intact?  Probably be around dusk.[...]

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Very high, I'd say. If you're concerned, see if you can park it directly in front of the restaurant so you can see it, but crime is way down in New York in general and Harlem in particular over the last 10-15 years, and that includes thefts of cars, car parts, and things in cars. It's good, though, if you are able to take the precaution of not having anything that looks potentially valuable being visible on a seat or the floor of the vehicle. And if you're really paranoid, take out the radio and the steering wheel like my cousin does. But they'll look weird on your table!

Sam, I have the general sense that Lombardi's has probably deteriorated over the past several years. I recall liking their pizza the first time (1999, I think), wondering what the big deal was the second, and pretty much disliking it the third time, which was with the NYC Pizza Survey.

[emmapeel]

Spent several months travelling the 5 boroughs for the best pizza.  Here's my opinion.

DiFara's Brooklyn

L&B Spumoni Gardens Bensonhurst (Summer!!& dont forget the rainbow spumoni)

Sal and Carmine's- Upper West Side- run to the best pizza in New York.  These two charachters aren't getting any younger.

skip patsy's harlem, Lombardis, Totonnos, John's.....

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I must agree about Sal and Carmine's. This pizzaria is often on "best of" lists, but it is an aquired taste. The first time I had it, I was unimpressed, but I live 3 blocks away so I have it often now and the key is the crust although thin, is simply a presentation of a mild, truly authentic Italian gravy, topped with real cheese. I don't know what cheeses the other common pizzarias use, but it is doesn't really melt for long. Sal and Carmine's cheese is simply delicious. And the "Two Characters" who run the place...they are brothers and I don't know who is who, but one told me he came to America alone at 12 years old and then sent for his brother. They've been doing this ever since. I'll take a picture if they let me and post it. One other thing, they don't deliver. They could make a fortune, but I guess it keeps the business managable for two old guys.

[Pan]

Sal & Carmine's has been around way longer than 12 years! I wonder what relationship the brothers have to the previous management.

[ghostrider]

She said "at 12 years old," not "12 years ago."

BTW, nice to see another Avengers fan on board!

[Pan]

She said "at 12 years old," not "12 years ago."  [...]

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Oh. Thanks for clarifying that. [sheepish grin]

[TrishCT]

"Without sounding like a paranoid tourist, what are the odds of parking a luggage-laden Jeep on the same block as Patsy's in East Harlem, and emerging an hour later with windows, stereo and luggage still intact? Probably be around dusk."

Funny you should ask... On Saturday, parked on a street near Patsy's, behind a Rolls Royce! Left it there all day, went to see the Gates, came back, had dinner at Patsy's...vehicle and contents still intact.

For the record... The pizza was very good. We had a bunch of 'em. Some with fresh mozz, some with regular, nicely charred crusts. Also really liked their house salad, nice greens and flavorful parm in the dressing. One salad is good for two to three people.

But our server left something to be desired. An older, baldish guy, at first, many in my group thought he was a colorful New York character. Every question I asked, he answered with a question. Plus he was on his cell phone a lot and seemed to be very pre-occupied, ignoring us at the end of our meal, leaving food and dishes uncleared on the table while we were drinking our espressos. The group didn't find him so amusing then...

Edited February 21, 2005 by TrishCT (log)

[iheartoffal]

There's a nice little pizza shop right next to the Village Vanguard that's been there for years. I'm not sure how it stacks up to other places down there, but it beats anything up here in CT

[wesza]

I'm very surprised that "NYC Pizza Favorites" hasn't picked up or are not aware that the is a new rating of "Pizza" Places that put a place I've posted about previously on this and other threads as having excellent Pizza.

It was just Rated # 1 out of the authors pizza testing in over 1000 places.

I don't know how to post a lead or HTML , interesting because the thread has a way to access a article from a "Arizona Newspaper" Posting referance # 845827 on eGullet.

Irwin

[emmapeel]

Sal & Carmine's has been around way longer than 12 years! I wonder what relationship the brothers have to the previous management.

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Thanks all for clarifying this for me...Sal and Carmine must be in their late 60's. The older one arrived in America at 12 years old. Ghost, thanks for the warm welcome!

Edited February 21, 2005 by emmapeel (log)

[emmapeel]

I don't know how to post a lead or HTML , interesting because the thread has a way to access a article from a "Arizona Newspaper" Posting referance # 845827 on eGullet.

Irwin

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Irwin, is this the place? Pizzaria Bianco

[Pan]

Yes, Emma, that was the place he was referring to. Here's the thread on the Southwest & Western States Forum:

Phoenix Has the Best Pizza!

And here's a quote from the initial post in the thread:

As determined by New Yorker Ed Levine in his new book Pizza:  A Slice of Heaven, after spending 1 year eating over 1,000 slices of pizza, Phoenix has now beaten out New York for the best pizza in the US, served by Pizzeria Bianco.[...]

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My comment is that for many of us New Yorkers, that fact that Ed Levine considers a pizzeria in Phoenix the best in the country is of only academic interest. If I visit Phoenix, I'd love to try the pizza there if I'm not too busy stuffing my face with the great Mexican and Southwestern food I figure must be there. But this thread is about New York City pizza favorites, not Phoenix or for that matter Neapolitan favorites. I can't help it if there are better pizzerie someplace other than New York; some 8,000,000 people and I are in New York now, and it's a hell of a lot cheaper and less time-consuming for us to find really excellent pizza around here than to go to a pizzeria that may well indeed be better, but which is hours away by plane. Chinese food is a heck of a lot better in Shanghai and Beijing and Kuala Lumpur than it is here, too. So should we stop talking about Grand Sichuan? I don't think so.

That said, if anyone wants to compare Pizzeria Bianco with New York pizzerie, I'd love to see a point-by-point comparison.

Otherwise, back to favorite New York City pizzerie...

[emmapeel]

I'd love to try the pizza there if I'm not too busy stuffing my face with the great Mexican and Southwestern food... back to New York.

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Thanks so much Pan, I'm so glad you said it. Because I'm new, I didn't want to ruffle any feathers but that is exactly what I was thinking.

[Busboy]

Had cold Lombardi's for breakfast yesterday -- leftovers from decoy pizza bought to keep the kids occupied while the missus and I snuck out to Babbo (more, later) -- and Patsy's for dinner. After reading some of the "decline of Lombardi's" posts here, I was prepared for a bit of a letdown, but the pizzas I hauled back to the hotel room kicked ass. Definitely -- to my palate -- superior to Patsy's, which was a pretty stellar pie itself.

[slkinsey]

Charles, which Patsy's did you visit? If it wasn't the one on First Avenue and 117th Street, I can well believe that Lombardi's was better.

[Busboy]

Damn -- how many are there?

Yes, we went to the one on 1st and 117th, which, to this provincial, seemed to be a pretty East Harlem address.

Now that you mention it, though, I do recall there being a dust-up among several claimants to the name, however. How far from the "true" Patsy's were we?

[slkinsey]

Damn -- how many are there? 

Yes, we went to the one on 1st and 117th, which, to this provincial, seemed to be a pretty East Harlem address. 

Now that you mention it, though, I do recall there being a dust-up among several claimants to the name, however.  How far from the "true" Patsy's were we?

There are a number of pizzerie named Patsy's in Manhattan, but they are not really related to the real thing up in East Harlem (imo the best traditional coal fired pizza in NYC). The deal is that the original East Harlem place licensed the name out to the other places, but they are not involved in the management, training or quality control of those other places.

Interesting to hear that you preferred Lombardi's. To a certain extent it depends on what you ordered and what your preferences are. Patsy's is all about the coal oven crust, which is why the toppings are so light. Really, their best pizze are the marinara (just sauce and garlic), the plain tomato/mozzarella and the mushroom ones. Any pizza ordered with multiple toppings in the "typical American style" won't really do Patsy's justice, because the crust really suffers. Lombardi's is a lot closer to what most people expect in a pizza: denser crust, heavier toppings, etc. It's not bad compared to 90% of American pizza, but it doesn't seem to have that NYC coal oven magic like it could. What was it that attracted you more to Lombardi's pizza than Patsy's? (I should mention that the Patsy's style really needs to be consumed immediately. It doesn't travel or hold well.)

[Busboy]

So, which is the "official" Patsy's?

I hesitate to get into too detailed of a pizza discussion on this board, since the level of analysis is so elevated. But, since you asked, though both crusts came out crisp and lovingly burnt, I thought the Patsy's crust was a little thin, and didn't hold its own against the cheese. Lombardi's seemed to have the better cheese, too. The Lombardi's pepperoni was excellent and there was a great deal of it, Patsy's was a little lacking in this department.

Both were fine products, however.

[Daniel]

Spent several months travelling the 5 boroughs for the best pizza.  Here's my opinion.

DiFara's Brooklyn

L&B Spumoni Gardens Bensonhurst (Summer!!& dont forget the rainbow spumoni)

Sal and Carmine's- Upper West Side- run to the best pizza in New York.  These two charachters aren't getting any younger.

skip patsy's harlem, Lombardis, Totonnos, John's.....

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Ok.. Going to Sal and Carmines tonight.. I just cant imagine this place existing.. Good pizza on the Upper West Side huh? I will go with much reluctance, but i hope you guys are right.

[banquo]

My favorites:

best overall: DiFara's; what's left to say about this place other than to reiterate that it's magical.

best crust: Totonno's on Coney Island; very pleasantly surprised

2nd best crust: Patsy's (Harlem); however, sauce was terrible and 'fresh' basil suspect

ok in a pinch: Lombardi's

I've had Arturo's only once, but thought it was terrible. Will try again, since many have praised it here.

I think Grimaldi's is very good as well, especially the sausage, but not first rate.

Also liked the pizza at Numero 28, but that is a different beast.

Want to try Franny's in Brooklyn. Anyone recommend this place?

[slkinsey]

So, which is the "official" Patsy's?

East Harlem.

. . . though both crusts came out crisp and lovingly burnt, I thought the Patsy's crust was a little thin, and didn't hold its own against the cheese.  Lombardi's seemed to have the better cheese, too.  The Lombardi's pepperoni was excellent and there was a great deal of it, Patsy's was a little lacking in this department.

Yes, the pepperoni at Patsy's leaves much to be desired. This is the one area where I feel that Patsy's has a lot of room for improvement. But I prefer the thinness of Patsy's crust.

Ok.. Going to Sal and Carmines tonight.. I just cant imagine this place existing..   Good pizza on the Upper West Side huh?  I will go with much reluctance, but i hope you guys are right.

Cal & Carmine's has been my neighborhood slice joint of choice for going on 14 years now -- but that's more reflective of my neighborhood than anything else. For what it is (a steel oven pizzeria selling slices of flavorful but fundamentally "most of America style" pizza) it's very good. But I wouldn't call it a destination place, and I wouldn't put it remotely in the same category as Di Fara, never mond Patsy's or Franny's (then again, I also thought L&B Spumoni Gardens was horrible, so Cru and I clearly don't share the same pizza aesthetic).

Want to try Franny's in Brooklyn. Anyone recommend this place?

I certainly do. It's overall my favorite pizzeria in the City, but it's a minimalist crust-centric approach that will not appeal to everyone. See here for some detailed comments on Franny's.

[jogoode]

Interesting to hear that you preferred Lombardi's.  To a certain extent it depends on what you ordered and what your preferences are.  Patsy's is all about the coal oven crust, which is why the toppings are so light. 

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In my experience at Patsy's (East Harlem) the crust at the tip of the pizza slices has not once stood up to the cheese and sauce and stayed crisp. And I have never ordered toppings there. Every time, I get slices that droop. But once I eat past the tip, the crust is excellent and crisp.

Ok.. Going to Sal and Carmines tonight.. I just cant imagine this place existing..  Good pizza on the Upper West Side huh?  I will go with much reluctance, but i hope you guys are right.

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I tried Sal and Carmine's for the first time two weeks ago. I got the last piece in a pizza that had been sitting out for a while. I had them warm it in the oven; just after I finished it, a fresh pizza came out. Nevertheless, my slice was very good -- a far superior version of the type I used to love as a kid in New Jersey. The cheese and sauce was oily and full of flavor. If only that slice could trade crusts with one at Grimaldi's, which I had last week, at the height of its crust perfection. Still, it was underwhelming. Though I enjoy the place, I've come to realize that what tops the crust at Grimaldi's is bland.