Tomato Sauce or Gravy

[Pan]

Just to add, having now read the thread, that a ragu with meat is a "meat sauce" as far as I've always been concerned. I've always thought of sugo, salsa, and ragu as "sauce," much as padi, beras, and nasi are all Malay words for "rice," though padi is growing, beras is raw, and nasi is cooked. In translation, shades of meaning often disappear, which is why the Italian saying tradutore, traditore (tradutore=translator, traditore=traitor) is so apt. It's interesting to me that English-speaking people north of Jamaica (and I don't mean the neighborhood in Queens) call all sorts of things "gravy" that I call "sauces."

Edited December 10, 2004 by Pan (log)

[tryska]

Just to add, having now read the thread, that a ragu with meat is a "meat sauce" as far as I've always been concerned. I've always thought of sugo, salsa, and ragu as  "sauce," much as padi, beras, and nasi are all Malay words for "rice," though padi is growing, beras is raw, and nasi is cooked. In translation, shades of meaning often disappear, which is why the Italian saying tradutore, traditore (tradutore=translator, traditore=traitor) is so apt. It's interesting to me that English-speaking people north of Jamaica (and I don't mean the neighborhood in Queens) call all sorts of things "gravy" that I call "sauces."

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what's "gravy" to you pan?

wait. have we had this discussion before?

[Mayhaw Man]

In New Orleans, among those of Sicilian heritage, it is known as Tomato Gravy or Red Gravy.

This article is about Rocky and Carlo's in New Orleans East ( "The East" in local parlance). It was written by the lovely Sara Roahen, a member of our august organization and a member of the Southern Foodways Alliance.

Anything comes with gravy if you specify the color: brown or red?

[Pan]

what's "gravy" to you pan?

wait.  have we had this discussion before?

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I don't know if we've had this discussion before.

Gravy to me is either the pan drippings of a roasted meat (including and probably most notably poultry) or a sauce probably including drippings or derived in part from some part of the meat (e.g., giblets) that is meant for pouring over the roasted meat or/and accompaniments such as stuffing/dressing, rice, potatoes, etc.

In other words, in my usage, there can not be such a thing as a pasta sauce that I'd call a "gravy," period, unless the noodles were an accompaniment to some kind of roasted (or perhaps broiled) meat and the sauce met my other criteria above.

[bleachboy]

The recipe I use for "red sauce" was originally labeled "gravy", but frankly, to me, "gravy" involves pork grease, flour, and milk, and really isn't ever anything else.

[NulloModo]

what's "gravy" to you pan?

wait.  have we had this discussion before?

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I don't know if we've had this discussion before.

Gravy to me is either the pan drippings of a roasted meat (including and probably most notably poultry) or a sauce probably including drippings or derived in part from some part of the meat (e.g., giblets) that is meant for pouring over the roasted meat or/and accompaniments such as stuffing/dressing, rice, potatoes, etc.

In other words, in my usage, there can not be such a thing as a pasta sauce that I'd call a "gravy," period, unless the noodles were an accompaniment to some kind of roasted (or perhaps broiled) meat and the sauce met my other criteria above.

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Interesting, so the use is part of the definition as well as the actual makeup of the substance? So, if someone decided to serve you a dish of spaghetti covered in sausage gravey (ala what comes with biscuits at breakfast) you would call it a sauce instead of a gravey?

I personally have no problem with people calling tomato sauce gravey, actually, I am pretty liberal with any adulterations of terms. Call it what you want, as long as it tastes good, that is what matters.

[Pan]

Interesting, so the use is part of the definition as well as the actual makeup of the substance?  So, if someone decided to serve you a dish of spaghetti covered in sausage gravey (ala what comes with biscuits at breakfast) you would call it a sauce instead of a gravey?[...]

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I don't know; that's never happened to me. I guess that could still be called gravy, but for me, that's an exception that proves the rule.

[russ parsons]

Interesting, so the use is part of the definition as well as the actual makeup of the substance?  So, if someone decided to serve you a dish of spaghetti covered in sausage gravey (ala what comes with biscuits at breakfast) you would call it a sauce instead of a gravey? 

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that is a gray area, since the meat in the sausage gravy was cooked in the sauce, er, gravy.

where's albert when we need him? sugo is literally translated as "juice". But my Italian culinary encyclopedia says (badly translated): in the language of cooking, it means that which is the "foundation" of braised meat, fish or vegetables, which can then be used to dress pasta, rice or polenta.

ragu, on the other hand, refers to meat which is cooked in a "sugo" that will be used to dress a pasta. so i guess it comes down to how big the pieces of meat are ... or whether there are pieces of meat or just the juices of the meat.

in which case, sausage gravy would be a ragu, rather than a sugo. but definitely not a salsa.

[Andrew Fenton]

Funny, because in my family we always called gravy "tomato sauce".

Which made Thanksgiving dinner very confusing, at least when guests came over.

[Juanito]

My mom's family hails from Naples, and my Dad's from Abruzzo. I grew up in the Bronx, via East Harlem. The Sunday meal was macaroni, which could have been one of half dozen or so cuts, topped with gravy, which was a tomato sauce in which meatballs, sausage, braciole, and a hunk of something on a bone had been simmered for many hours. The slow simmering meat thickens the sauce, which may be where the term gravy comes from. The macaroni was served dressed with the gravy. When that course was finished, the meat was fished out of the remaining gravy, and served as a second course. This was followed by green salad, and then fruit and nuts.

Gravy is completely different from ragu, at least to me. Ragu is meat sauce; the meat and sauce are one and inseparable. Think Bolognese.

To my mind, sugo is something else again. If I put some fresh or canned tomatoes in a pan, add basil, garlic, and seasonings, and cook it quickly, then that's sugo.

So on any given day, I might top my macaroni with gravy, ragu, or sugo.

Unless it's Friday.

[lovebenton0]

My dear elderly neighbor Nettie, from Southern Italy, living in Houston, would make "red gravy" in her cast iron skillet by braising meat for hours with tomatoes and whatever else was called for. This red gravy was served on pasta, the meat served afterward. I inherited her red gravy skillet and use it to this day. Sauce was altogether another matter to her -- and since then to me -- but what would I know? I don't have a drop of Italian within hundreds of miles of my ancestors! I always thought if it was red it was sauce, she instructed me differently!

Great, now I have to dig around in the cold storage and see what I can come up with to make red gravy and pasta.

[slkinsey]

where's albert when we need him? sugo is literally translated as "juice". But my Italian culinary encyclopedia says (badly translated): in the language of cooking, it means that which is the "foundation" of braised meat, fish or vegetables, which can then be used to dress pasta, rice or polenta.

Lo Zingarelli says:

sugo 1. Liquid squeezed from fruit or vegetables: the sugo of orange. Synonym: succo. 2. Liquid more or less thick and with pleasant flavor produced during the cooking of food, specifically of meat: the sugo of the roast. 3. (absolute) condiment prepared with oil, butter, tomato, onion, aromatic herbs: make the sugo for the dry pasta. 4. (figurative) Substance, essence, fundamental idea.

My experience is that spremuta (literally "squeezed") is much more likely to be used to describe a raw juice than sugo. For example, one is more likely to see "spremuta d'arancia" than "sugo d'arancia," and if I saw something described as "sugo di zucchini" I would assume it was a cooked zucchini sauce rather than zucchini juice.

ragu, on the other hand, refers to meat which is cooked in a "sugo" that will be used to dress a pasta. so i guess it comes down to how big the pieces of meat are ... or whether there are pieces of meat or just the juices of the meat.

Lo Zingarelli says:

ragù [fr. ragoût, from ragoûter 'to wake up the appetite', composed of ra and goût 'taste'; 1669] Condiment, specifically for pastasciutta, obtained by making fry at low temperature (soffriggere), in a chopped vegetable mixture (battuto) of onion, celery, and carrot, some beef generally ground, and then cooking on a slow fire and at length after having added tomato.

And for whatever it's worth, Lo Zingarelli also says:

salsa [from latin salsa(m), f. substantive of salsus 'salty'; 1289] Condiment more or less thick or creamy, prepared separately to add flavor to certain foods: salsa of tomato, green, piquant, white, tartar, mayonnaise | salsa dolce, preserve of tomato sweetened with sugar, diluted with vinegar and flavored (aromatizzata) with spices and herbs. | sugo, intingolo

Lo Zingarelli is generally accepted as the definitive Italian dictionary, but as with most culinary terms in a regular non-culinary dictionary (especially in Italy where there are so many regional differences in usage, etc.), it is by no means the last word in this particular case. Does add some interesting data, though, I think.

NB. Translations from Lo Zing' are mine, so to the extent that there are mistakes, it's my fault.

[maggiethecat]

My Nonno and Nonna-in-law were two insufferably stuck-up Toscani immigrants living in what they considered the great unwashed of the Chicago Neapolitan/Sicilian population. Sugo, ragu, salsa -- no matter with what luscious red stuff Nonna dressed the pasta , it was sauce.

If you weren't from Lucca you could say gravy, but they'd sneer: Sicilian! and roll their eyes.

[pam claughton]

I had two Italian grandmothers. The one from Rhode Island made sauce, full of peppers and onions, loads of spice and simmered meatballs.

The one from Boston's North End, made gravy, nothing in it but puree and meat, simmered for hours, then the meat would go in to a separate dish, and the gravy would be poured over her homemade ravioli's. These were an amazing dish, to this day have never had anything like Nana's ravioli's, filled with cheese, spinach and sausage.

[hillvalley]

Sophomore year of college I was driving somewhat regularly from Mass. to New Jersey. One weekend I gave a friend a ride home in return for a home cooked meal. The whole drive down she went on and on about her mother's spaghetti and gravy. I drove in fear, trying to figure out how the hell I was going to eat a plate of brown gravy on spaghetti.

It was, by the way, one of the best plates of gravy or sauce I have ever eaten.

[handmc]

Yo, my dad a lawyer up in MA, 20 + years ago, had some "friends" clients actually ...Joey, Benny and Nicky (I'm told its "Nicky the knife" and de made Gravy..youse got a problem wit dat. I learned not to. I was told sauce that was somtin da french made.

In all seriousness they taught me how to make meatball, red gravy, white gravy, chicken and veal catch, cabbonara, pasta, etc., it was great.I knew these guys since I was 7 they showed me how to cook like their momma. The peppers, the wine, oh the Bread from tripoli bakery in Lawrence....its been over 20 years and I haven't had bread, tomato and provelone sausage or cannoli since then. Whatever their real world was, which I don't excuse, they sure knew how to cook. I was blessed. Watching Lidia on PBS is like a time warp to my childhood, without the hoods.

Oh, and the best dish of all time sausage pie. Hot, Sweet, tomato and provalone sausage, onions,peppers, mushrooms and red gravy spread atop a layer of bread dough for the bottom crust, the filling covered with cappicol, salami, provelone and motz chesse. Covered again with a bread dough top. Yum!

Edited December 14, 2004 by handmc (log)

[winesonoma]

So I made a pot roast with a tomato based sauce. Is it sauce or gravy? No other vegies except 2 clove of garlic to season the oil.

[Pan]

So I made a pot roast with a tomato based sauce. Is it sauce or gravy?

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My answer, in all seriousness, is no: It's a pot roast. The sauce is part of the dish (and therefore, not properly sauce to me at all but simply the more liquid portion of the stew), and if you're having pasta with it, it's incidental to the dish. By contrast, whatever you put on pasta, when the pasta is the main vehicle of the dish, my general case is that what you're putting on it is sauce.

[Milagai]

mostly in india,

gravy is what y'awl call "sauce" in western countries.

i.e. dum aloo = potatoes steamed in tomato cream gravy,

what you call "ketchup" we call "sauce

right now i have a bottle of my favorite maggi chili garlic

tomato sauce (chili garlic ketchup to you) on my table

and am dunking my samosas in it....

milagai

[pam claughton]

MCHand Wrote:

"The peppers, the wine, oh the Bread from tripoli bakery in Lawrence....its been over 20 years and I haven't had bread, tomato and provelone sausage or cannoli since then. Whatever their real world was, which I don't excuse, they sure knew how to cook. I was blessed. Watching Lidia on PBS is like a time warp to my childhood, without the hoods.

Oh, and the best dish of all time sausage pie. Hot, Sweet, tomato and provalone sausage, onions,peppers, mushrooms and red gravy spread atop a layer of bread dough for the bottom crust, the filling covered with cappicol, salami, provelone and motz chesse. Covered again with a bread dough top. Yum!

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"

Tripoli is still the best. My sister's husband's family is from the Lowell/Lawrence area and do a big Italian Seafood Fest on Christmas Eve. Our bread and cakes will be from Tripoli, and the meat pie you mentioned comes from somewhere in Lawrence too, and it really is something.

Pam

Edited December 14, 2004 by pam claughton (log)

[handmc]

The sausage and the recipe came from the little italian food store 3 doors down. The owner would make his own sausage and have all the dry goods and good EVOO you would need. I don't know if it is still open.

Now I'm really homesick!