Poor Service

[morela]

Rectifying the problem.

This is where I find the 'customer notes' in Open Table are a good service to both the customer and the establishment.

Last time Mr. Gasbaggs had to wait 34 minutes for his main. Make sure Mr. Gasbagg's food comes out fast.

or

Mr. Gasbags hates Jeffrey. Do not let Jeffrey serve Mr. Gasbaggs

or

Last time we forgot to put the candle on his daughter's cake...and we forgot the cake...

Try hard to give him good service.

or

VIP VIP VIP, champagne and canape upon arrival!

Mr. Gasbagg's name is in the computer three times, under three different spellings!

Edited November 11, 2004 by morela (log)

[Nadya]

Ohhh, the gift certificates. Ahhh, the gift certificates. And the use thereof to address customer satisfaction dilemmas.

A month ago or so a party of 14 dined with us. According to the recollection of the floor manager, they seemed fine, and did not complain at all while they were in. Next Wednesday, Sietsema's chat featured a long complaint from that same party (easy to figure out because how many parties of 14 can dine at the same place on the same night) about the food, the service, the ambience, the service - the whole shebang.

The entire FOH and BOH staff gets the what for from the management. Our GM contacted the host of the party and after a telephone con, sent him a nice letter of apology and a gift certificate for two.

Yesterday a couple came in brandishing the same gift certificate (with the letter attached, to boot).

Obviously, all kinds of fuss happens over them. Manager visits, service extraordinaire, comments entered in OpenTable...you name it.

Upon departure, we inquire tremulously..."how was it this time? how did you enjoy your dinner? was the service to your satisfaction?"

Blank stare. More smiles. More stares. "This time? this is our first time here."

"Oh, the gift certificate. Some friends gave it to us for our anniversary."

Curtain falls.

[Busboy]

When I have a restaurant complaint that I feel can be resolved reasonably without inconveniencing myself or my fellow diners, I don’t hesitate to discuss my feelings with the appropriate authority figure.

However, the customer no duty to brief the manager/chef/owner of any restaurant or any business regarding the quality of service upon departing, whether the experience was good or bad. Further, taking a grievance to eGullet -- where one is almost guaranteed to find a diversity of opinion -- is as legitimate a move as singing an establishment's praise, a practice which encounters little objections.

Generally speaking, most people deliver feedback with their decision to return or not. If I don’t like the service at the Gap I go to Macy’s. If I don’t like the help desk at Toshiba, I buy a Mac. If I have a problem at one restaurant, I go to another one. In neither case do I feel the need to lay out my reasons to management. It’s their job to worry about me – to get me to give them my money -- not the other way around.

Obviously, I’m not making or breaking anyone’s business, but if a place has a problem, the cumulative message can be pretty clear – ask Carol Greenwood. In addition, at a restaurant, one has one’s tip as a pretty effective carrot or stick. Most servers know that tips fluctuate based on the habits of the individual leaving them. But they’re also smart enough to wonder at any wild variations from the norm.

So, generally, there are two ways to make one’s feelings known to a restaurant or business already.

Approaching the manager is more problematic. Sometimes they approach you during the meal and you can say something like “kitchen seems a little slow tonight” and they can explain or expedite or whatever. But, sometimes they don’t come by the table. Then, if the waiter is busy or weeded or blinkered, you just have to roll with it. It happens, and it’s not necessarily a deal-breaker. But service is an accumulation of a number of things -- many of them small in their own right -- which add up to the full experience, good or bad. Pulling the manager out of his or her routine, while friends and clients wait, to try to quantify and describe a series of judgment calls and minor infraction which, at some point, accumulated critical mass strikes me as a frustrating experience for both parties. If a waiter spills soup on your lap, the manager can comp the meal and pay for the dry cleaning. If the wrong plate comes out, it can be sent back. More nuanced complaints, however, don’t necessarily lend themselves to easy solutions, and it often seems appropriate to just cut one’s losses, figure the tip, decide whether this was a random or a chronic problem – ie, whether or not to return – and go home.

As to whether or not posting one’s experience is “passive aggressive” and wrong, I’d suggest, first, that the use of the phrase “passive-aggressive” is little more than name-calling with a Psych 101 course behind it and, second, that if restaurants are going to bask in the sunshine of posted praise, they have to live with the rain of posted criticisms, as well.

As I said at first, I don’t hesitate to speak up in person when I feel there’s some point to it. And I generally don’t hesitate to post in eGullet, if I feel that there is something to add – positive or negative – to a discussion. eGullet is populated with intelligent, opinionated people who can make up their own minds about me and my posts. The Palena thread, in particular, is chock-full of high praise. My post, one of more than 200, will be considered along with all the other wisdom accumulated on that thread and judged accordingly. In fact, by posting publicly, I allow and even invite opposing views to appear – as they did.

It’s a new world; Tom, eGullet, and other electronic outlets are just word-of-mouth in the information age and if a restaurant is not confident that they can prosper in this medium as easily – or more easily – as they could in the days of paper and ink, need to look carefully at the way they do business.

[Fynnicki]

I have a simple answer as to why I don't always complain about less-than-desirable service: because it feels like work.

If the service is absolutely terrible, I will almost always ask to speak to a manager. Certain things always warrant a complaint, at least to my server - being brought the wrong food/drink, being charged for items I didn't order, being served food that is cooked badly (i.e., still frozen in the middle when it's supposed to be a hot dish), having to wait an inordinate amount of time to get service. However, if the service is so-so - just not quite paced the way I'd like, a little too hovering, the wrong degree of formality for the restaurant - it seems like a lot of work to complain, especially if my goal was to have a relaxing meal out. I often second-guess myself into thinking that my complaints are probably subjective, based on my personal service preferences rather than any real errors. I don't really view it as my job to critique/advise the restaurant on more subtle points of service.

Also, whether or not I complain depends on the type of restaurant, and whether it is the kind of place that I want to return to (service issues aside). If I find myself at a casual chain restaurant because that's where some friends wanted to go or because I need to grab a quick meal when out doing errands and there isn't anything else around, I'm not very likely to complain about mediocre service. If I try a new restaurant and the food itself isn't worth a second look, I don't really see a need to complain aside from glaring errors. However, if I really want to like a restaurant because the food is fabulous (but some service issues are getting in the way), I'll speak up because I'll want to restaurant to become a place I can love all the way around.

All in all, I suppose it depends upon whether I think the complaint will pay off (and I don't mean a free meal or other comped items - the best reward for a complaint, IMO, is an improved dining experience for myself and any other future diners).

[ghostrider]

I think I have a responsibility to complain whenever I feel like it in any given situation. It's certainly not an absolute responsibility.

Mark Twain's little story on Travelling with a Reformer offers a interesting perspective on the value of complaint. If you don't happen to have the right Twain volume on your shelves, you can read the tale right here.

[TheFoodTutor]

Just saw this reply and frankly I'm shocked.

If a server can't figure out that he gets shitty tips because he's a shitty server then he really is an idiot. What are tips for exactly then?

←

Well, the tipping system here seems to be very flawed, frankly. I work in a tipped profession, on top of owning my own business, and the tipping habits I see, based on working in an extremely busy restaurant that does an enormous amount of business doesn't seem to support the idea that patrons tip based on the quality of service. There are lots of good examples.

For one, there are many times that I might split a check 3 ways for a single table. All 3 people were sitting in the same spot, with the same server at the same time. All 3 received identical service, and sometimes identical dishes (which would seem to alleviate the necessity for split checks, but no matter) and all 3 gave the same smiles and nods in response to questions about how everything tasted, whether everything was exactly the way they wanted it. One person writes in the exact amount of a 15% tip, one writes in an exact 18%, and the last writes in 20% - all three of those amounts being printed in a handy tip guide on our checks. What's the difference? Obviously, the tipping habits of the guest. This happens over and over and over.

As a server, I don't just ask, "Is everything OK?" because I don't believe that our food and service are just "OK." I ask, "Is everything perfect?" "Is your steak cooked perfectly to your specifications?" "Do you have everything that your heart desires?" This goes above and beyond a normal quality check, and I really don't need management to do 100% table touches - which is something I've been required to do as a manager in the past, and it's very hard to keep up with, on top of other managerial duties, if you work in a fairly busy restaurant.

And yet, as a very good server, I do get stiffed on occasion, and sometimes I just get really crappy tips that amount to being stiffed. Not always. Not enough to make me think I'm not good at what I do, but enough to know that there are some people who have absolutely no manners who eat in restaurants.

I got stiffed a couple days ago, and this one is a pretty good example. I had a single gentleman dining alone on a busy evening. He ordered a glass of wine, a caesar salad and a medium-well filet mignon. I put in his order, brought his wine and offered water as well, since we don't have mandatory water service, but I assume someone might want it while drinking an alcoholic beverage. I noticed when he got his salad, and he was just over half-finished eating it when his steak arrived. He sent the steak back, told them to keep it warm, and finished his salad. Sending his steak out too early was really a kitchen problem, even though it wasn't really overly quick. When he finally got his steak, I stopped by the table and asked how everything was, and he replied that his steak was now overcooked because it had been kept warm in the kitchen. I looked at the steak, and it was a little closer to well than medium-well, but it wasn't really dried out or burnt. I offered to have a new steak prepared, since his mid-well steak had arrived quickly enough to suggest that the kitchen was churning out pretty fast. He declined.

Further, I asked if there was anything I could do for him. Clearly he wasn't satisfied, but he declined anything I suggested. On a further visit to the table, he said, "If you want to do something for me, you can get me another glass of wine." I told him that I could bring him another glass of wine, but didn't have the power to comp one for him. I offered to bring a manager to remove any charges on his bill that he thought appropriate, and he still declined.

His bill came to $40.40, and he left $40.50 and shot out the door. I'm inclined to think that he wanted an excuse to stiff me, and I gave him every opportunity to have a fully satisfactory experience. And these people, who want an excuse to stiff a server, thereby getting a discount on their meals, do exist, and it's part of why we have this tipping system in this country.

I think a big part of the reason why people engage in the passive-agressive behavior described is because of the tipping system, that allows you to pay what you feel like paying. I cannot begin to expound on the number of bad automotive maintenance experiences I've had, where I paid sometimes $200 for diagnostic services that cost me a whole day, sitting in a shop, only to find out that my problem was prohibitively expensive to fix, on an older vehicle. You'd better believe I raised hell, since I don't have a choice about paying that $200, whether it took 10 hours, as opposed to the stated 5, or I had to go home without a car and come back the next day.

By comparison, the service people get at restaurants is splendid, even when they're the sorts of people who don't tip at all, ever, period.

[intraining]

firstly, if the food is the problem, bring in the manager straight away.

if the problem is with service,

a) if you are eating casually with a friend, complain out loud.

b) if it's a date meal then ask to see the manager quietly

c) if it's a special dinner, and they know it, because i usually drop the anniversary bit, and the food is good, then avoid a ruffle and adjust the tip, and ask that the manager takes care of this bill.

after complaining, if no rememdy is found (for a and b above) then adjust tip.

i think this is how i work when out.

unfortunately, poor service is a fact of life, and when going for the special dinner, i make try have a back up plan!!

Edited November 14, 2004 by intraining (log)

[auntdot]

I believe Fynniki essentially has it nailed.

And we mostly deal with the problems as Fynniki does.

However there are times when the restaurant really screws up.

I am talking about pricey places here, sites where you expect good service.

When things go awry, and the meal is not on the table, I just pay for what we have eaten and imbibed, and walk away.

We don't stiff the waiter.

But I do not want to deal with the manager.

The night has been ruined; do not want a comp or anything like that.

Just will never be to your place again.

Edited November 14, 2004 by auntdot (log)

[Pan]

His bill came to $40.40, and he left $40.50 and shot out the door. I'm inclined to think that he wanted an excuse to stiff me, and I gave him every opportunity to have a fully satisfactory experience. And these people, who want an excuse to stiff a server, thereby getting a discount on their meals, do exist, and it's part of why we have this tipping system in this country.

←

That's a strong argument for eliminating, not keeping, the tipping system. And it certainly sounds like that man was a total asshole for stiffing you after all you had done for and offered to him.

There's no doubt that there are individual tipping styles, but I would think there's little doubt that extremely rude or incompetent service is likely to get lower tips, though I suppose I stand to be corrected. I'll say this: Knowing what I know about waiters' wages and taxes, it takes a lot for me to stiff someone on a tip, and when I do, there was something really seriously wrong with the service.

[hjshorter]

As I said at first, I don’t hesitate to speak up in person when I feel there’s some point to it.  And I generally don’t hesitate to post in eGullet, if I feel that there is something to add – positive or negative – to a discussion.  eGullet is populated with intelligent, opinionated people who can make up their own minds about me and my posts.  The Palena thread, in particular, is chock-full of high praise.  My post, one of more than 200, will be considered along with all the other wisdom accumulated on that thread and judged accordingly. In fact, by posting publicly, I allow and even invite opposing views to appear – as they did.

←

Right on Busboy. Do you feel your experience as a server predisposes you to feel charitable about poor service? Or having had the job are you more likely to get irritated when on the receiving end? I worked in customer service at the Kennedy Center for 9 years, smoothing the ruffled feathers of (in all likelihood) of the same folks who dine in the cities' better restaurants. That experience made me less inclined to pass over what I know to be the result of poor training or a bad attitude.

That being said, I have to agree with Fynnicki that sometimes I don't complain because complaining feels like work, and if it's the intangibles aren't right than often it's a bigger hassle to complain than to just get it over with and make another choice the next time.

[Pan]

My take on this compaining business is that I have no sympathy for a customer who, when asked "is everything OK" says "Yes" and then proceeds to punish the restaurant for poor service. If asked, I will always give a truthful answer, whether the questioner wants one or not, and whether s/he plans on doing anything about what I tell him/her or not. But as for making a special effort to find a manager and complain to him/her, that is purely up to the discretion and inclination of the customer. When you're a customer, you are off duty, not at work, and don't have any job to do other than fulfilling the contractual obligation of paying for what you ordered and behaving in the decent way people are expected to behave in public.

[bleudauvergne]

Keeping the subject of this thread in mind, as a question asked by someone who works in the kitchen and has no control over the service, the question of intention of the reviewer comes to mind. You asked in particular about situations where a person was dissapointed with their service and puts it up on eGullet.

If a person posts a negative review of a restaurant experience, my first question is - What is this persons intent? Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger? Is that person slamming a restaurant because they are personally upset and are trying to "punish" the restaurant, or because they are honestly concerned that other members of this community might have their evening ruined in a place that definitely does not merit a good reference?

Sure I think everyone has experienced at one time or another disappointment when dining out - the sources of this kind of disspointment are varied - the number one source of dissapointment in my book is seeing cut corners coming out of kitchens (anyone who is passionate about cooking as I am can understand this), then there are the ever so dissapointing having made reservations far in advance and built up unrealistic hopes of a perfect experience, or an ill-timed brush with the staff that left me feeling uncomfortable. That does not mean I am going to right away rush to the Gullet and tell everyone not to go there. I'll be the first to admit my mood always has something to do with my perception of service. Service is, after all, an interaction, and you have at least two (imperfect) human beings involved.

After some experience we come to our own method of weighing a dining experience and if we put some effort into it, we come up with a realistic and consistent gauge to apply. As for fine dining experiences, before I post anything, positive or negative, I try, in the best way I can, to understand my own frame of mind. I do my best, in my own journal, to describe my experience as exactly as possible in order to bring out the facts of the matter, and I think about it. If something is bothering me, I take some time to cool off and above all I ask myself: Given the whole experience, will I actually be doing this community a service by warning other members of eGullet about a problem, or is my urge to complain a personal need of a more impulsive nature? Is there something outside of this experience contributing to my reaction? Of course service is a really important factor in the dining experience. But I certainly hope that the reviews that members post here are put up with the good of the community in mind, and are taking into account that two way communication to establish your expectations and how they are going to meet them is necessary.

When I read about people who slam a restaurant because they made very difficult requests that were not met exactly to their satisfaction, I just shake my head. When people trumpet about threatening not to tip if they don't get this or that, it makes me pretty much disregard anything else they have to say. Blanket statements of "bad service" in a fine dining establishment, or impulsively written emotionally charged posts also don't count in my book without further investigation into the source of the criticism. Having realistic expectations is important in this venue. Members of this community definitely build reputations on posting habits and actual content in their posts as well.

[Busboy]

As I said at first, I don’t hesitate to speak up in person when I feel there’s some point to it.  And I generally don’t hesitate to post in eGullet, if I feel that there is something to add – positive or negative – to a discussion.  eGullet is populated with intelligent, opinionated people who can make up their own minds about me and my posts.  The Palena thread, in particular, is chock-full of high praise.  My post, one of more than 200, will be considered along with all the other wisdom accumulated on that thread and judged accordingly. In fact, by posting publicly, I allow and even invite opposing views to appear – as they did.

←

Right on Busboy. Do you feel your experience as a server predisposes you to feel charitable about poor service? Or having had the job are you more likely to get irritated when on the receiving end? I worked in customer service at the Kennedy Center for 9 years, smoothing the ruffled feathers of (in all likelihood) of the same folks who dine in the cities' better restaurants. That experience made me less inclined to pass over what I know to be the result of poor training or a bad attitude.

←

For me, attitude counts for a lot. I can let sloppy service by someone who appears to care about me and my table pass, most of the time. I'd rather not work myself up and get in a bad mood. The level of the restaurant is important, too; you expect more of a 4-star than of a neighborhood place.

[Suzanne F]

Last night we went to a concert at Zankel Hall (the newish one under Carnegie). The concert began at 8:30. We went to a restaurant within one block of the hall, arriving about 7:00 (no reservation). After a couple of minutes, we were seated in the bar-table area -- fine with us, we've been there before, and we can order from the regular menu. It took a good 5 minutes until anyone brought the regular menu (never did bring a wine list, but I didn't really want it, so that's a wash). Another 10 minutes before our order was taken. In that time, as throughout much of our time there, the waiter either stood at the computer, with his back to the room, punching stuff in, at tables at the other end of the room, or who-knew-where (not in sight).

After about 20 minutes, with, in the interim 1) my informing the waiter where and our curtain was, and his returning to the computer to punch it in; 2) the table next to ours being seated, having their order taken, and having their food brought; 3) several apologies from the waiter that our apps would be "right out," the last apology still followed by dead air for a good 5 minutes -- our apps finally arrived.

Then there was another 20-minute wait until our mains were brought. No one cleared our long-since-emptied apps plates, so the runner bringing the mains had to juggle plates. We ended up having no time for coffee or dessert (and they usually have an item on the dessert list that I really wanted to order). We've been to this place several times, and were really unhappy with the service. My guess is that the kitchen lost our ticket, but still. HWOE left a tip just under 19%.

Management got a short version of this story on the comment card. I mainly listed the time gaps, and mentioned that they lost out on dessert sales; I did not attempt to assign blame -- just gave the facts and stated my unhappiness. Whether they respond remains to be seen.

And to answer bleudauvergne: why am I telling you all this? First, because I can. But also because I feel I put the restaurant on notice sufficiently, given the time problem they caused us. Had I not been in a rush, I would have sought out a manager and told the same story I told here.

[bleudauvergne]

I see that you judiciously did not mention the name of the restaurant, Suzanne. You shared that experience with us because it was an example of what you consider bad service, and you shared it with us, from Suzanne F to eGullet. Your mention that if you had time to communicate your experience to the manager you would have also strikes me as something that I would do. You did what you could, under the circumstances, and I agree with you, it was not right for them to lose your ticket. You have every right to complain.

What I was talking about are people who go to fine dining establishments, no comment card, no mention to the manager, and say "[name of restaurant] gives bad service. Don't go there."

[Suzanne F]

When I hear that sort of thing directly, I always ask for the particulars. When I read it, and have no chance to investigate, I ignore it. (A piece of advice from my mother, for which I am eternally grateful.)

I believe that in addition to the purely economic exchange, there is a moral compact between business and customer, for the business to do its best and for the customer to help in that process. Bad-mouthing a business without giving any explanation is breaking that compact; letting the business know about poor experiences, in as objective a manner as possible, upholds it. And even if the business has not held up its end, there is no reason for me as a customer to NOT keep up mine.

[Busboy]

If a person posts a negative review of a restaurant experience, my first question is - What is this persons intent?  Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger?  Is that person slamming a restaurant because they are personally upset and are trying to "punish" the restaurant, or because they are honestly concerned that other members of this community might have their evening ruined in a place that definitely does not merit a good reference? 

Sure I think everyone has experienced at one time or another disappointment when dining out - the sources of this kind of disspointment are varied - the number one source of dissapointment in my book is seeing cut corners coming out of kitchens (anyone who is passionate about cooking as I am can understand this), then there are the ever so dissapointing having made reservations far in advance and built up unrealistic hopes of a perfect experience, or an ill-timed brush with the staff that left me feeling uncomfortable.  That does not mean I am going to right away rush to the Gullet and tell everyone not to go there.  I'll be the first to admit my mood always has something to do with my perception of service.  Service is, after all, an interaction, and you have at least two (imperfect) human beings involved. 

After some experience we come to our own method of weighing a dining experience and if we put some effort into it, we come up with a realistic and consistent gauge to apply.  As for fine dining experiences, before I post anything, positive or negative, I try, in the best way I can, to understand my own frame of mind.  I do my best, in my own journal, to describe my experience as exactly as possible in order to bring out the facts of the matter, and I think about it.  If something is bothering me, I take some time to cool off and above all I ask myself:  Given the whole experience, will I actually be doing this community a service by warning other members of eGullet about a problem, or is my urge to complain a personal need of a more impulsive nature?  Is there something outside of this experience contributing to my reaction?  Of course service is a really important factor in the dining experience.  But I certainly hope that the reviews that members post here are put up with the good of the community in mind, and are taking into account that two way communication to establish your expectations and how they are going to meet them is necessary.

←

I find this approach troubling on two levels. First, it seems to assume malicious or inappropriate intent on the part of the negative poster: "Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger?" It holds those with negative comments to a higher standard than those who post positive reviews.

Second, it over-intellectualizes what I think should be a visceral response. You go to dinner. You like it or you don't -- or it was OK. Dining is like love or lust, thinking too much about it never enhances the experience. You wake up in the morning smiling, or you don't. Pondering the details to flesh out the experience, to help you repeat it or to alert others is valuable. Questioning your own gut reaction is less so.

Regarding eGullet, I won't go so far as to say that all opinions are equally valid, but I will say they should be equally welcome. I think what enhances this community is data. The web is a bad medium for precise calculation. It is a very effective net, however. The more people who weigh in on a subject, the more likely it is that something valuable will be added, or that the cumulative value of an individual thread will be enhanced.

Let a thousand flowers bloom, trust the readers to pick the ones they want.

[fatmat]

I find that complaining is often met with riteous indignation - A kind of 'how dare you criticise my work?' attitude that attempts to justify the server's position whilst trying to make you the wrong doer. Complaint is rarely met with gracious apology.

[bleudauvergne]

I find this approach troubling on two levels.  First, it seems to assume malicious or inappropriate intent on the part of the negative poster: "Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger?" It holds those with negative comments to a higher standard than those who post positive reviews.

No, my question does not imply malicious intent, but yes, it does imply a concern about whether it's appropriate for a person to be posting negative comments. I want to know if this person has or is taking a discussion of a restaurant seriously and not just their gut or emotional response. Of course the level of existing discussion on a thread speaks volumes about that.

Regarding eGullet, I won't go so far as to say that all opinions are equally valid, but I will say they should be equally welcome.  I think what enhances this community is data.  The web is a bad medium for precise calculation.  It is a very effective net, however.  The more people who weigh in on a subject, the more likely it is that something valuable will be added, or that the cumulative value of an individual thread will be enhanced.

Let a thousand flowers bloom, trust the readers to pick the ones they want.

←

I completely agree with you on the fact that all opinions are equally welcome. I'm pointing out that speaking from my own personal standpoint, my answer to pastramionrye's question is that I'll decide which ones I feel are valid based on how appropriate I think that person's response to their experience was. If a person is just going to say - "I just got home from [restaurant] and let me tell you I'll never ever go there again. I didn't like it, the service sucked, I got a server with an attitude, snotty, supercilious, pretentious, etc." I will wonder if that person is having such a strong emotional response to that server (and their own personal reasons behind it) that perhaps their judgement of the restaurant on the whole has been tainted by it.

I can also completely understand that there will be people who post about restaurants with a theme of discussion in mind, having already in their mind rejected a certain kind of experience you typically find in that kind of restaurant. Sometimes this kind of post can be fruitful when its well written, because of it gets your gears turning, and there's plenty of room for discussion there.

[melkor]

Poor service to me depends not just on the level the restaurant is trying to function at but also on what requests my table may include in the experience. If we are ordering in a non-standard way for the restaurant then I often expect lower quality service than the restaurant is capable of providing. This happens quite regularly at places we visit more than a handful of times - a table for four, we order several groupings of 2 or 3 dishes together from different sections of the menu to share. Obviously the server can't be expected to be in the same rhythm as they otherwise might be so mistakes happen. It's nice when they don't but I can't fault a restaurant for not flawlessly handling our non-standard requests.

On the other hand, If it's just two of us at a suitably high-level restaurant ordering a basic tasting menu, no substitutions and wine to go with it then I have a problem with anything more than small service errors. I expect a restaurant to at least be able to deliver their most basic menu successfully. Everyone has off nights, but if the front of the house is properly staffed then basic service needs should still be met. If a restaurant has truly awful service on our first visit I won't likely return, small issues I'm happy to give it another shot.

Obviously at places like a BBQ shack in a ski town I’m just happy to have my food show up at the right table. If I’ve got silverware to eat it with then that’s even better.

[Busboy]

I find this approach troubling on two levels.  First, it seems to assume malicious or inappropriate intent on the part of the negative poster: "Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger?" It holds those with negative comments to a higher standard than those who post positive reviews.

No, my question does not imply malicious intent, but yes, it does imply a concern about whether it's appropriate for a person to be posting negative comments. I want to know if this person has or is taking a discussion of a restaurant seriously and not just their gut or emotional response. Of course the level of existing discussion on a thread speaks volumes about that.

I differ here in that I think that the "gut or emotional response" is valid, perhaps more valid than a "considered" response. It's more honest and more likely to reflect the true experience. Too much intospection leads to rationalizations and evasions. "Maybe it was me," "maybe they had an off night'" "maybe my date put me in a bad mood." It reminds me of those avant-guarde art exhibits where you have to read the manifesto before you "understand" the art. I think that if a restaurant, or a piece of art, fails on a visceral level, deeper consideration is pointless. (On the other hand, if it succeeds viscerally, then deeper thinking can add tremendous value.)

[bleudauvergne]

I find this approach troubling on two levels.  First, it seems to assume malicious or inappropriate intent on the part of the negative poster: "Is this person concerned for me a prospective diner in that particular establishment, or are they adressing their own anger?" It holds those with negative comments to a higher standard than those who post positive reviews.

No, my question does not imply malicious intent, but yes, it does imply a concern about whether it's appropriate for a person to be posting negative comments. I want to know if this person has or is taking a discussion of a restaurant seriously and not just their gut or emotional response. Of course the level of existing discussion on a thread speaks volumes about that.

I differ here in that I think that the "gut or emotional response" is valid, perhaps more valid than a "considered" response. It's more honest and more likely to reflect the true experience. Too much intospection leads to rationalizations and evasions. "Maybe it was me," "maybe they had an off night'" "maybe my date put me in a bad mood." It reminds me of those avant-guarde art exhibits where you have to read the manifesto before you "understand" the art. I think that if a restaurant, or a piece of art, fails on a visceral level, deeper consideration is pointless. (On the other hand, if it succeeds viscerally, then deeper thinking can add tremendous value.)

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I completely agree that a very basic visceral response to the food is in order, on every level of dining from fast food to the best we can imagine. But you have to admit that it really depends on whether you think the discussion is a "take the pulse" kind of discussion or an in depth exchange on the nuances that certain restaurants represent; both kinds take place in every region on this site.

Different threads discuss restaurants differently. You might find a "where's the best place for [name your dish]" where people give their surface impressions one after the other and that's not only entertaining but educational. Or the always interesting "tell us your story" thread - I love these threads an participate in them regularly.

In discussions of fine dining experiences (which is what pastramionrye's initial beef is about, I gather from his first post), people who are involved in these discussions go to a good deal of effort to accurately place a restaurant and exchange on a plethora of issues. There's a whole lot of discussion involving history, influences, technique, mis en ouevre, all about the kitchen, you name it. And when someone comes out with an "it sucks" post, you just have to ask where this person is coming from. Yes, discussion will follow, and the truth prevails. But you have to wonder where that's coming from, that's all. I'm not saying don't post your experiences on these threads. Everyone has the right to do so. If you go and you pay top dollar and you feel slighted or otherwise in a position to complain, by all means, understand that you have the power, when dining in these establishments, not only to talk to the floor manger, but to the chef, and to the owner, who are normally on site. And they care a great deal about what you experience.

[bleudauvergne]

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On the other hand, If it's just two of us at a suitably high-level restaurant ordering a basic tasting menu, no substitutions and wine to go with it then I have a problem with anything more than small service errors.  I expect a restaurant to at least be able to deliver their most basic menu successfully.

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Melkor I completely agree with you! So what do you do, when the basic menu is not being delivered sucessfully?

[melkor]

...

On the other hand, If it's just two of us at a suitably high-level restaurant ordering a basic tasting menu, no substitutions and wine to go with it then I have a problem with anything more than small service errors.  I expect a restaurant to at least be able to deliver their most basic menu successfully.

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Melkor I completely agree with you! So what do you do, when the basic menu is not being delivered sucessfully?

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It depends how unsuccessful the restaurant is. Most of the time I return for another visit and just write off the first one if the 2nd is excellent that is assuming this is my first visit. If I've had other good meals at the same restaurant I just shrug and go on with my life. On the rare occasions that the service lapses into the realm of comically inept then if there is someone who seems to be willing to listen I'll bring talk to them about it, otherwise I just pay the bill, leave a 15% tip and try not to return. The bizarre meal that had some of the food arrive out of order, some not arrive at all and finished with a band-aid in my dessert would be at the top of the list when it comes to my bad service experience - in that instance we asked to talk to the maitre d' who somehow turned out to be our waiter (and former owner of said band-aid); we then asked to talk to the owner who was completely uninterested in hearing about any of it.

[JeffHart]

The real question is what do you people do when you encounter a condescending server or bad pacing, or warm wine or cold wine, or unattentive service?

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It depends on many factors - how bad was the problem and whose problem was it? If it's poor service accompanied by poor attitude then it's always reflected in the tip. On one occasion, I left a penny tip while using a credit card, service was horrendous, slow, inattentive, the wrong order was delivered and no apology or commentary offered by the server. Didn't bother to ask me if everything was alright so in this case I didn't offer. This was many, many years ago, today I would have asked to speak to the manager.

My last run in with bad service was at one of the steak houses here in DC, I'd been there before but it's not one of my regular haunts. My wife and I were never offered water and didn't recieve it after we asked for it when placing our order. After about 20 minutes we tagged a busboy and asked him to bring us some water. Timing was off on delivering the food, might have been a kitchen problem but we didn't see our server for about 25 minutes. Doing the math, it was about an 80 plus minutes before we saw our main courses, during which time we saw our server twice - once when ordering and after the mains were brought out- the appetizers were brought out by someone else.

In this case, I asked for the sommelier to stop by our table. When he stopped by I let him know that service wasn't very good, my wife's steak was overcooked and I didn't plan on leaving the server much of a tip and tipped him well and directly as he had been friendly and provided a good recommendation. He apologized and brought us a $100 gift card, which I later re-gifted to a co-worker. Left the server a 10% tip.

If the problem is with the kitchen and not the server, then I'll let the manager know and the tip is not impacted.

Cheers,

Jeff