Demi Glace - The Topic

HKDave · December 26, 2006

I freeze demi in sealed 2-cup containers. I've tried the ice cube thing but, maybe because of the increased surface area, found the demi seemed to pick up other flavours after a while, even though I double-wrapped the cubes.

Once thawed and in the fridge, every couple of weeks I re-heat any unused demi and place it in a clean sealed container. It'll keep in the fridge for a very long time this way.

Shalmanese · December 26, 2006

A 10:1 reduction means 250mL is reduced down to 25mL which is roughly an ounce. That sounds about right. Don't forget that home stock is usually a bit more concentrated than store bought stock in the first place so you have to factor this into the reduction.

You can use demi diluted as stock but the flavours are a bit muted due to the long cooking time neccesary to reduce and it seems like a waste of time and effort to reduce it down only to dilute it back up again. I just used demi for sauces and leave stock as stock. Either make 1 batch of demi for every 2 - 3 batches of stock or decant off 1/3rd your stock to make demi and keep the rest undiluted. Depends on how often you use demi compared to stock.

HKDave: 2 cups of Demi is 20 cups of stock. I have no idea how you can use that much demi so fast or how you find the time to make that much in the first place. 2 cups of demi would last me 3 months.

deltadoc · December 26, 2006

Escoffier stated that a glace was a 90% reduction of stock. I've made it and kept it in the refrigerator, but after some weeks, it developed a mold even though the container had a tight lid.

My demi-glace, made per Escoffier, I freeze in stainless steel 1-cup containers with tight fitting plastic lids. Some of them have been in the freezer for 1 year and they still taste excellent.

I have no trouble at all using 1-cup of demi for a sauce for filet mignons for two people. The extra is usually used on garlic mashed potatoes, so what spills over from the filet gets et with the potatoes!

doc

tim · December 26, 2006

Hi,

I freeze demi-glace in mason jars or cambro containers. About 30 minutes in hot water or 5 minutes in a microwave and you are ready to cook.

Hong Kong Dave hit the nail on the head with his comment about the increased surface area of frozen demi-glas cubes. I also make too much stock and wouldn't have room for bags of cubes.

Tim

scott123 · December 26, 2006

Once thawed and in the fridge, every couple of weeks I re-heat any unused demi and place it in a clean sealed container. It'll keep in the fridge for a very long time this way.
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Re-heating stock to prolong life has been proven to be a myth. There are quite a few strains of bacteria that survive boiling.

scott123 · December 26, 2006

Hong Kong Dave hit the nail on the head with his comment about the increased surface area of frozen demi-glas cubes.
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I'm in the same camp. Surface area + freezing = greater propensity for absorption of off flavors. I cringe when people talk about freezing flour.

I've been freezing glace in shallow containers, about an inch thick. Because of the high proportion of dissolved solids (gelatin) my glace doesn't freeze rock hard/is sliceable right out of the freezer. I slice a piece off and put the chunk back. The shallowness of the container gives me some surface area, so my glace does absorb off flavors, but I've noticed these off flavors don't penetrate far. I resolve this by rinsing the glace off in warm water for a split second. This removes the outer fraction of an inch. I do the same thing for stock.

I've found stocks hidden in the freezer for 3+ years where the outer 1/2", after being scraped off and melted, tasted absolutely vile, but the inner core tasted like the day it was made.

The longer a stock/glace has been in the freezer, the more of the outer layer I wash off.

The other thing I do for stock/glace preservation is to make sure I add salt. I used to make all my stocks/glaces salt free and then add salt to the final dish, but their shelf life was cut way too short. So I add salt. Salt is a big player in this equation. If you can work with an extremely salty demi or glace (I can't) freezing may not even be necessary. Heck, refrigeration may not even be necessary.

scott123 · December 26, 2006

You can use demi diluted as stock but the flavours are a bit muted due to the long cooking time neccesary to reduce and it seems like a waste of time and effort to reduce it down only to dilute it back up again.
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I don't think the flavors are muted at all. Reducing stock creates maillard compounds, giving demi (and the diluted stock) a more roasted/bolder taste. In fact, if I want the taste of a roasted stock, but don't want to roast the meat before hand, I get those maillard notes on the back end by prolonged reduction/dilution. Whether by pre-roasting or post-reduction, I can get the same flavor to my stock.

The prolonged heat does break down the gelatin, though, so a reduced/diluted stock will have less body than an unreduced version. And, for some apps, color and flavor aren't always desired. If you have a recipe calling for white stock, a diluted demi won't fit the bill.

Edited December 26, 2006 by scott123 (log)

paulraphael · December 31, 2006

I think there's confusion between demiglace and glace de viande.

Glace de viande is a 4x to 10x reduction of gelatinous beef bone stock. It's traditionally used to enrich nouvelle cuisine-style interpretations of sauces that are finished with reduced cream and/or butter.

Demiglace is basically 1/2 to 2/3 reduction of a sauce espagnole (one of the original four mother sauces) and is the base for classical brown sauces. Espagnole itself is traditionally made from beef and veal-rich brown stock that is thickened with roux, enriched with pork (and often tomatoes) and reduced slightly.

Modern restaurant kitchens usually make glace de viande (it's cheaper and much less labor intensive in spite of the increased reduction) but for some reason call it demiglace, so everyone gets confused.

At any rate, it's more than just a semantic point, because the two are used differently, and if you indescriminately use one in a recipe calling from the other, you probably won't be happy.

Ao, an ice cube of glace de viande might be similar to a cup of stock, but an ice cube of demi would not.

I agree with the person who said reconstituted glace will taste flat compared with unreduced stock. Even with judicious replenishing of the bouquet garni, you're going to lose many of the aromatic elements of the meat in any extreme reduction. A classically prepared sauce with real demiglace (which few people ever have the opportunity to taste) will have much more depth and savor than a nouvelle sauce made with glace de viande. Although some prefer the more velvetty texture of the nouvelle sauce, which is thickened by cream, butter, and gelatin, with no starch.

For sources, check out Escoffier's Le Guide Culinaire, Larousse Gastronomique, Peterson's Sauces, or Raymond Sokolov's Saucier's Apprentice.

As far as the original question, I put mine in 1 cup quantities (demi, not viande) in ziplock bags and freeze them. I'm curious to try the ice cube trick for smaller quantities, maybe by individually wrapping the cubes in plastic and putting a few at a time in a ziplock.

Shalmanese · January 1, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.

Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency

Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.

UnConundrum · January 1, 2007

Well, I resolved my storage issue. I have some 1 cup ball jars sitting around, so I put the "reduced stock" in there, and used my chamber vac to seal a lid on each, and then froze it. I assume that if I re-establish a vacuum on the jar I'm using, after each use, it will keep in the fridge for a while.

Other than mold and/or an off smell, any other way to tell when it's spoiled?

scott123 · January 1, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.
Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.
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I am in complete agreement.

deltadoc · January 1, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.
Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.
←
I am in complete agreement.
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I guess that makes me a "nobody", because I take great relish in making Fonds de Veau Brun ala Escoffier Recipe #9 (from organic veal bones from New Zealand). I then make the Sauce Brun ou Sauce Espagnole ala Escoffier Recipe #22 . Then I make the Demi-glace ala Escoffier Recipe #23. (Note: different editions of Escoffier's Cookbook and guide to the fine art of cookery show different types of wine to add to the demi-glace: my edition states "an excellent Sherry").

I have also made Glace de Veau Viande ala Escoffier Recipe #15 from leftover veal stock (Recipe #9) rather than reducing Fonds Brun ou Estoufade (Recipe #7) when I didn't have enough canning jars left to can the remaining fresh stock. The stock in the canning jars always tastes as good as the day I made it even 2 years later.

I have however not been as thrilled with the Glace de Veau Viande, as it does lose some brightness from the prolonged reducing period. When I do use it, I never reconstitute it, but add a tsp or TBSP or two to another sauce as an added layer or fortification of flavor.

Interestingly enough Escoffier discusses that "many chefs of the old school do not permit the use of glaces in culinary preparations". I wonder how "old" the "old school" is that he refers to, as it would appear that chefs today refer to Escoffier's methods as "old school"??

doc

paulraphael · January 1, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.

That makes me nobody too.

I'd agree that hardly anybody makes the stock for their demis a la escoffier anymore--i wonder if even trois etoille french restaurants have the budget to use 16 pounds of meat and bones to produce a quart of demi. but that's really not my point.

What I've been finding is that a lot of people make glace de viande and call it demiglace. This is just confusing because it destroys a significant distinction.

The working definitions you give (demi = stock reduced to sauce consistency, etc.) are ok, because they preserve the distinction. They won't lead someone with a half-baked education to make a cup and-a-half of brown sauce with a whole cup of glace de viande.

Edited January 1, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

paulraphael · January 2, 2007

Interestingly enough Escoffier discusses that "many chefs of the old school do not permit the use of glaces in culinary preparations". I wonder how "old" the "old school" is that he refers to, as it would appear that chefs today refer to Escoffier's methods as "old school"??
doc
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This is a great observation. I suspect Old School to Escoffier was the 17th and 18th century, when the chefs were in service to the kings and aristocracy, and didn't have to deal with the vulgarities of a la carte cooking, restaurants, the middle class, and budgets. Back then, naturally thickened jus (called coulis) were prepared as sauces for roasts and sautees. This was done a number of ways, but it all amounted to cooking a lot of pieces of meat in order to get enough sauce for one piece.

In a sense this is what we do with stocks, but we use bones and much cheaper cuts, and long cooking and reduction in order to concentrate flavors. This is just not capable of achieving the fresh complexity of a natural jus or coulis.

The simplest approach was to roast multiple pieces of meat on spits, and eventually collect enough jus to serve with the final roast.

Sometimes they would squeeze all the juice out of these pieces of meat in a big iron press.

Another approach was to make stock from the poaching or braising liquid from a piece of meat, and then to poach another piece of meat in that liquid. This was called a double coulis. A tripple coulis might also be prepared. I don't know what all these extra pieces of meat were used for. Given to the dogs, maybe, or the kitchen staff.

At any rate, after the revolution disenfranchised the chefs from their patrons (and their patrons from their heads) the middle class was born, along with restaurants and a la carte cooking. The old ways wouldn't work with the new time and budget constraints, so chefs created time and money-saving shortcuts to simulate the favor of the grand old coulis.

Careme and the chefs of his generation created these shortcuts (including the family tree of classic sauces and glaces). It's worth remembering that the extravagant preparations of haute cuisine (like double stocks made with staggering amounts of meat) were actually born as shortcuts.

Escoffier's methods from a generation later no doubt simplified and economized Careme's shortcuts, just as the mid-20th century chefs simplified and economized Escoffier's, and the chefs of Nouvell cuisine simplified and economized theirs, and as our generation is currently simplifying and economizing theirs.

This isn't to say that a restaurant that makes a demiglace by reducing stock made from bones and vegetable ends is doing anything wrong, but it's folly if they don't recognize their methods as a shortcut on a shortcut on a shortcut, many times over.

Reefpimp · January 2, 2007

Hong Kong Dave hit the nail on the head with his comment about the increased surface area of frozen demi-glas cubes.
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The other thing I do for stock/glace preservation is to make sure I add salt. I used to make all my stocks/glaces salt free and then add salt to the final dish, but their shelf life was cut way too short. So I add salt. Salt is a big player in this equation. If you can work with an extremely salty demi or glace (I can't) freezing may not even be necessary. Heck, refrigeration may not even be necessary.
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This brings us right back around to the original precursor to bullion cubes, ca. 1800: "portable soup," which readers of the Aubrey/Maturin books by Patrick O'Brian will recognize. One would take demi down to au sec, then let it cool into sheets, to be reconstituted as needed. I haven't tried this but I think it's a dandy idea. I've taken to reducing all my own stocks by 90%, plus or minus, and I go through them fast enough that shelf life really isn't an issue.

However comma space: The restaurant at which I work has recently taken to ordering whole ducks (We confit four dozen legs at a time) instead of just the skin-on breasts, which (although it means I spend a morning a week in a pretty high state of grease, is great. We end up with a surplus of bones, so I am fairly soon going to have to make a great big batch of stock for myself (Chef, while testy, is cool like that. I just wish he'd ease up and let me use the RoboCoupe instead of the mortar for making Caesar dressing). SO I'm gonna try a 'spearamint: I'm going to take one batch of duck demi and salt it fairly aggressively. I'm going to take another batch and add a generous portion of Everclear to it off-heat, let it sit for half an hour, then re-heat and flame it, to drive off the alcohol. Both will be placed in 1-cup Tupperware containers straight out of the dishwasher and left to sit out on my kitchen counter until one or the other starts to grow things. We shall see if either or both helps.

scott123 · January 2, 2007

SO I'm gonna try a 'spearamint: I'm going to take one batch of duck demi and salt it fairly aggressively. I'm going to take another batch and add a generous portion of Everclear to it off-heat, let it sit for half an hour, then re-heat and flame it, to drive off the alcohol. Both will be placed in 1-cup Tupperware containers straight out of the dishwasher and left to sit out on my kitchen counter until one or the other starts to grow things. We shall see if either or both helps.
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Don't forget a control- a third demi with neither everclear nor salt.

And must you use duck demi? A chicken demi would reveal the same keeping capabilities without sacrificing your precious duck stock.

demiglace · January 2, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.
Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.
←

You haven't lived if you haven't tasted the *real* thing.

scott123 · January 2, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.
Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.
←
You haven't lived if you haven't tasted the *real* thing.
←

I'm not a big fan of the dark irony note that browned/long cooked tomatoes get nor do I enjoy the alcoholic bite of uncooked sherry (or madeira, port, etc.).

paulraphael · January 2, 2007

Nobody *makes* espagnole a la Escoffier anymore so I think it is safe to retire the old definition of demi-glace in favour of the more common, modern usage.
Demi-glace = stock reduced to sauce consistency
Glace = stock reduced to more than sauce consistancy.
←
You haven't lived if you haven't tasted the *real* thing.
←
I'm not a big fan of the dark irony note that browned/long cooked tomatoes get nor do I enjoy the alcoholic bite of uncooked sherry (or madeira, port, etc.).
←

Me neither. At least not enough to make it a standard part of the preparation. I do what I think a lot of people do ... make a less authentic but more versatile version by leaving out the tomatoes and the fortified wine.

paulraphael · January 2, 2007

So has anyone sucessfully stored demi ice cubes by individually wrapping in plastic and then putting a few together in small ziplock bags?

Ruth · January 2, 2007

So has anyone sucessfully stored demi ice cubes by individually wrapping in plastic and then putting a few together in small ziplock bags?
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I generally store my demi (about two cups at a time) directly in small ziplocs but I also fill one ice cube tray and wrap the cubes individually in plastic once they are frozen. I follow exactly the same procedure with egg whites and even heavy cream and crème fraîche which are even more prone to pick up off-flavors. I have never had a problem and those little cubes are a wonderful resource to have available.

Reefpimp · January 2, 2007

Don't forget a control- a third demi with neither everclear nor salt.
And must you use duck demi? A chicken demi would reveal the same keeping capabilities without sacrificing your precious duck stock.
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Sorry, I thought I'd included that but I see I didn't.

I have to pay for chicken (we don't serve it at the restaurant), so none's around. I get duck bones for free.

Shalmanese · January 2, 2007

Me neither. At least not enough to make it a standard part of the preparation. I do what I think a lot of people do ... make a less authentic but more versatile version by leaving out the tomatoes and the fortified wine.
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Without the tomatos and the wine, isn't it just a roux thickened brown stock?

paulraphael · January 2, 2007

Without the tomatos and the wine, isn't it just a roux thickened brown stock?
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Maybe, but I've seen sources noting these as normal variations on espagnole (if used for demiglace) going back a long time.

You can always add reduced tomatos or spirits to a sauce if you want them; removing them is another story.

I think the larger issues involve the quality of the stock used, and the degree of reduction.

Edited January 2, 2007 by paulraphael (log)

HKDave · January 4, 2007

HKDave: 2 cups of Demi is 20 cups of stock. I have no idea how you can use that much demi so fast or how you find the time to make that much in the first place. 2 cups of demi would last me 3 months.
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I have a big stockpot. It takes almost the same amount of my time to make a big or small batch; a big batch just has to sit on the stove longer to reduce which doesn't require additional effort on my part. Two cups lasts me a long time, too; that's the whole point. I'm not going to make demi every couple of weeks.

Re the other poster's comment that re-boiling to extend the fridge life of stock/demi is a myth, well, it works in the real world.