Wine & Spirits Bargains at the PLCB (Part 1)

[yeldarb]

Of course I will start off with the Burgess 1994 Cabernet…Beautiful fruit on the nose soft silky tannins.  I think I liked this even more that the 1993! $19

Deidre... you posted this just last week. I have been checking the inventories online at least once a week. Last week I know the 94 Burgess was not showing up anywhere, and was still on the "Upcoming Chairmans Selections" list. Today I see it's no longer on the Upcoming list, and it's also not in inventory (Product Catalog Search results in nothing.) Should I conclude that this item came in less than six days ago and was subsequently all sold out?

I'm beginning to wonder if the Chairman's Selection program is intentionally engaging in a bit of excitement marketing, creating hype around sparse shipments and limited quantities. You know, people want iPods more when there aren't any available...

I like wine, but it's a bit absurd that soley because of the design of the program, we have to hover around discussion boards like this one (not that there aren't lots of other great reasons to be here...) and constantly check the PLCB site for Chairman's Selection items and stock levels at stores in the area. Instead why not just offer online pre-ordering via pawineandspirits.com? Wouldn't it make more sense to send the wine where it's already sold, then to make guesses about how much each store will sell, ship to them, and then wait and see? This is 2005, not 1950. I order everything online, and backorder things that aren't currently in stock, etc. etc etc. It's not rocket science, and the state does have a monopoly and a big fat revenue stream with which to implement information technology.

[Mano]

Of course I will start off with the Burgess 1994 Cabernet…Beautiful fruit on the nose soft silky tannins.  I think I liked this even more that the 1993! $19

Deidre... you posted this just last week. I have been checking the inventories online at least once a week. Last week I know the 94 Burgess was not showing up anywhere, and was still on the "Upcoming Chairmans Selections" list. Today I see it's no longer on the Upcoming list, and it's also not in inventory (Product Catalog Search results in nothing.) Should I conclude that this item came in less than six days ago and was subsequently all sold out?

I'm beginning to wonder if the Chairman's Selection program is intentionally engaging in a bit of excitement marketing, creating hype around sparse shipments and limited quantities. You know, people want iPods more when there aren't any available...

I like wine, but it's a bit absurd that soley because of the design of the program, we have to hover around discussion boards like this one (not that there aren't lots of other great reasons to be here...) and constantly check the PLCB site for Chairman's Selection items and stock levels at stores in the area. Instead why not just offer online pre-ordering via pawineandspirits.com? Wouldn't it make more sense to send the wine where it's already sold, then to make guesses about how much each store will sell, ship to them, and then wait and see? This is 2005, not 1950. I order everything online, and backorder things that aren't currently in stock, etc. etc etc. It's not rocket science, and the state does have a monopoly and a big fat revenue stream with which to implement information technology.

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Yeldarb,

Even though I live very close to the Newtown store and not too far from the Franklin Mills store, both of which typically receive plenty of the Chairman's Selections, I've noticed the online inventory doesn't always reflect their stock. The Il Futuro was a case in point. A week ago Monday I called the Newtown store, was told it wasn't in yet, and probably wouldn't be until Thursday, but to check online. The online inventory never included Newtown and when I went there on Saturday, I was told it arrived Tuesday (two days prior to expected delivery). They received 35 cases and it was going fast.

[yeldarb]

You can search the catalog here.....

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/webapp/Product_...plcbNav=|32369|

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Yes, of course I realize that one can search inventory and I do this all the time. However if you search for this one you'll see that only a dozen or so stores all show <10 each. In my experience these numbers are usually off, for reasons I don't know, perhaps just poor tracking or breakage or shrinkage or there are inventoried bottles in the store that are earmarked for people and not actually available for sale... many times I've seen some number X shown and then I call the store and they can't find any or they say the number is wrong, etc. When I've seen a large number like 50 or 150, then I can usually just go there and buy some.

Anyway, I asked because I thought an "insider" who reads this forum may have a more accurate read on how many might actually be available for sale, generally, or if the word is that they're all basically gone. Since the LCB inventory data is not reliable (at the margin), and since more nuanced info isn't provided on their web site, and since most store employees are not helpful in this regard, I'm left to hope for a better answer here.

[yeldarb]

I'm beginning to wonder if the Chairman's Selection program is intentionally engaging in a bit of excitement marketing, creating hype around sparse shipments and limited quantities.  You know, people want iPods more when there aren't any available...

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Yeldarb,

Even though I live very close to the Newtown store and not too far from the Franklin Mills store, both of which typically receive plenty of the Chairman's Selections, I've noticed the online inventory doesn't always reflect their stock. The Il Futuro was a case in point. A week ago Monday I called the Newtown store, was told it wasn't in yet, and probably wouldn't be until Thursday, but to check online. The online inventory never included Newtown and when I went there on Saturday, I was told it arrived Tuesday (two days prior to expected delivery). They received 35 cases and it was going fast.

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Ah, so maybe it's not clever/sinister marketing like I implied...

the LCB is just technologically incompetent?

;-)

Perhaps PLCB should outsource inventory tracking and online sales. I bet Amazon would do it. (and I'm only half joking.)

[mrbigjas]

Instead why not just offer online pre-ordering via pawineandspirits.com?  Wouldn't it make more sense to send the wine where it's already sold, then to make guesses about how much each store will sell, ship to them, and then wait and see?

this is a damn good idea.

[Jeff L]

Even though I live very close to the Newtown store and not too far from the Franklin Mills store, both of which typically receive plenty of the Chairman's Selections, I've noticed the online inventory doesn't always reflect their stock. The Il Futuro was a case in point. A week ago Monday I called the Newtown store, was told it wasn't in yet, and probably wouldn't be until Thursday, but to check online. The online inventory never included Newtown and when I went there on Saturday, I was told it arrived Tuesday (two days prior to expected delivery). They received 35 cases and it was going fast.

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[KatieLoeb]

Instead why not just offer online pre-ordering via pawineandspirits.com?  Wouldn't it make more sense to send the wine where it's already sold, then to make guesses about how much each store will sell, ship to them, and then wait and see?

this is a damn good idea.

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Seconded!

[Capaneus]

You can search the catalog here.....

http://www.lcb.state.pa.us/webapp/Product_...plcbNav=|32369|

←

Yes, of course I realize that one can search inventory and I do this all the time. However if you search for this one you'll see that only a dozen or so stores all show <10 each. In my experience these numbers are usually off, for reasons I don't know, perhaps just poor tracking or breakage or shrinkage or there are inventoried bottles in the store that are earmarked for people and not actually available for sale... many times I've seen some number X shown and then I call the store and they can't find any or they say the number is wrong, etc. When I've seen a large number like 50 or 150, then I can usually just go there and buy some.

Anyway, I asked because I thought an "insider" who reads this forum may have a more accurate read on how many might actually be available for sale, generally, or if the word is that they're all basically gone. Since the LCB inventory data is not reliable (at the margin), and since more nuanced info isn't provided on their web site, and since most store employees are not helpful in this regard, I'm left to hope for a better answer here.

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I've generally found the numbers to be accurate, both in my local stores and in other stores nearby when I call to have something transferred. When there is an apparent discrepancy, there's usually a prosaic answer, like the five bottles of Kim Crawford SB being held for an ailing emplyee, or the two cases of Latour Mersault being held for later pickup by a customer.

I imagine there is some variance between stores, though, so your local outlet may well have poor inventory control. Also, keep in mind that numbers are updated overnight, not in real time, so any same-day sales will not be reflected on the site.

I share your puzzlement about the '04 Burgess, though. I'm positive it never hit Philadelphia stores: I watch them like a dipsomaniacal hawk.

[Capaneus]

Also, I wonder why the Omaka Springs Sauvignon Blanc is available at different stores at two different prices under two different stock numbers...

[Mano]

Yeldarb, your frustration makes sense given where you live and your exerience. However, I don't know that the system is technologically incompetent, but think that it's likely very difficult for a system this large to keep track of such a vast inventory accurately and in real time. If you're old enough to recall "back in the day" buying anything from the State Store was for the birds. The current system generally works quite well and for the most part I'm satisfied with the range of product and the prices. The Chairman's Selections are a great and I don't much mind the hit-or-miss aspect of the whole concept. I've purchased a case of something on speculation only to return 10 or 11 bottles, usually with no problem at all.

I'm fortunate to have an excellent Specialty Store very close by with several similar stores within a 30 minute drive. I'm also close enough to NJ and Delaware to know that I may find great bargains there but on occassion I've been disapointed, as well. In other words, even wine and liquor stores in free market states have problems similar to our commonwealth run shops.

[cdh]

Instead why not just offer online pre-ordering via pawineandspirits.com?  Wouldn't it make more sense to send the wine where it's already sold, then to make guesses about how much each store will sell, ship to them, and then wait and see?

this is a damn good idea.

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Seconded!

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I do wonder a bit about this... This strikes me as an invitation to folks to order up more than they'd ordinarily get. Under the present system you might have to be content with the 6 or 8 bottles your local shop had out when you walked in. I'm for the status quo because I can walk into a shop and pick up, say, two bottles of the 1993 Burgess or such. If everybody with a spare $120 could be guaranteed a case of it with a web order, what chance do I have of getting any anywhere?

[mrbigjas]

i was actually thinking something similar, cdh. i could really spend a lot of money if that existed...

[yeldarb]

I do wonder a bit about this...  This strikes me as an invitation to folks to order up more than they'd ordinarily get. Under the present system you might have to be content with the 6 or 8 bottles your local shop had out when you walked in.  I'm for the status quo because I can walk into a shop and pick up, say, two bottles of the 1993 Burgess or such.  If everybody with a spare $120 could be guaranteed a case of it with a web order, what chance do I have of getting any anywhere?

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This statement is illogical. You'd have exactly the same chance, that's the point (assuming you can use a web browser, a fine assumption since you're on egullet.org!)

If you're concerned about a ticketmaster-like effect, then LCB could limit quantities, easy as that.

The point is that it would be a more level playing field, and more efficient distribution, than the current "wait and see" method.

[Capaneus]

i was actually thinking something similar, cdh. i could really spend a lot of money if that existed...

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Heh. I spend too much money as is. In for a penny...

[cdh]

This statement is illogical.  You'd have exactly the same chance, that's the point (assuming you can use a web browser, a fine assumption since you're on egullet.org!)

If you're concerned about a ticketmaster-like effect, then LCB could limit quantities, easy as that.

The point is that it would be a more level playing field, and more efficient distribution, than the current "wait and see" method.

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I could see you calling my opinion wrong, as is your right, but I don't quite get the logical misstep/fallacy you're accusing me of. Please explain.

To expound on my thought: The proposed web method is all about more efficient distribution to people who already knew what they wanted. I often don't. If none of the "good stuff" appears unordered in my store, then what am I going to browse and randomly decide to pick up? And no, browsing wine online is not the same thing as wandering around in a wine shop. The "wait and see" method is waiting and seeing for people like me who like the old fashioned B&M shopping experience every once in a while. And no, I'm not a luddite... I've been buying stuff online since 1996... but I just don't want to have to get into a race with everybody else in the state with a web browser when something interesting comes along.

I'm less concerned about the Ticketmaster effect since the secondary market is much more illegal, and there is no physical nexus like a show venue to attract buyers and sellers. I'm worried about the wine cellar effect, however. Something interesting that gets snapped up by the case in a fit of speculative exuberance and sits in the wine cellars of a few people, rather than getting more widely distributed. The Chairmans Selection program has an educational and outreach goal that is clearly not served by that outcome.

On the other hand, if you know damn well what you want, then it seems you're already able to speak with the manager of your local shop and arrange a transfer of bottles from elsewhere... at least that is the impression that discussions earlier on this topic left me with.

Edited November 10, 2005 by cdh (log)

[yeldarb]

This statement is illogical.  You'd have exactly the same chance, that's the point (assuming you can use a web browser, a fine assumption since you're on egullet.org!)

I could see you calling my opinion wrong, as is your right, but I don't quite get the logical misstep/fallacy you're accusing me of. Please explain.

You're statement wasn't really an opinion, it was an IF/THEN logic statement. You pose that if anyone can place a web order, "What chance to I have of getting any anywhere?" Well, online is included in "anywhere", and you would have exactly the same chance as anyone else with a web browser.

My point was that currently any given customer does not have an equal chance of obtaining a Chairman's Selection item (for example), since the distribution is so screwy. It's apaprently luck, or a lot of work driving around to various stores, which is absurd with the technology we have today.

I certainly concede your point about "browsing" in the store and that it's nice to discover things you may not have known you wanted. However, given limited quantities, I would think the LCB would prefer to pre-sell ALL of a wine, rather than risk not selling some quantity because certain stores they blindly stocked didn't happen to get a shopper/browser like you to discover the wine.

Anyway, there's an easy solution to prevent people from being a pig, LCB could simply limit quantities for pre-order, or not require full cases.

As to your suggestion about asking the local manager for a bottle transfer, sometimes that works but often it doesn't. Depends on the manager, the staff, the transferring store and their staff, etc. I've found this to be unreliable and too time-consuming. Placing an pre-order online would take minutes.

Jus my $0.02

[Jeff L]

I know it's holiday time in the wine and spirits world, but todays inky has two full page ads from Total Wine in New Jersey featuring their version of PA's Chairmans Selection program.

It's interesting to note the impact the program is having outside of the state. I can't help but think they are getting pinched in NJ and De as the great wines here have become more popular.

As a sidebar, Jonathan Newman had among his things at the RX dinner an ad for Total Wine! He gets a kick out of seeing what the competition is doing.

[davidbdesilva]

I have had 2 wines that I have bought in Pennsylvannia lately that are both great bargains and which I have truly enjoyed. The Panarroz Jummila at $8.49 and the Montes Alpha Cabernet Sauvignon at (I think) $11.99 are both excellent, in different ways. Both are highly rated by wine mags, which is understandable. The Jumilla is a new wine for me and, along with the Montes Alpha, has driven me into exploring more of the Spanish and South American wines (which, to be honest, I had explored a few years ago and was disappointed).

Also, to be totally honest, my latest trips into NJ have made me realize how well priced wine is in Pennsylvannia. Now granted, I am comparing our state stores to little wine and liquor shops I've stopped into in mid to Northern Jersey, but Pa. consistently has as good a selection and sometimes shockingly better prices. By and large, things have seemingly improved greatly in Pa. wine stores.

[Jeff L]

I have had 2 wines that I have bought in Pennsylvannia lately that are both great bargains and which I have truly enjoyed. The Panarroz Jummila at $8.49 and the Montes Alpha Cabernet Sauvignon at (I think) $11.99 are both excellent, in different ways. Both are highly rated by wine mags, which is understandable. The Jumilla is a new wine for me and, along with the Montes Alpha, has driven me into exploring more of the Spanish and South American wines (which, to be honest, I had explored a few years ago and was disappointed).

Also, to be totally honest, my latest trips into NJ have made me realize how well priced wine is in Pennsylvannia. Now granted, I am comparing our state stores to little wine and liquor shops I've stopped into in mid to Northern Jersey, but Pa. consistently has as good a selection and sometimes shockingly better prices. By and large, things have seemingly improved greatly in Pa. wine stores.

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True that, it does seem we have better wines with better prices here in PA. The first thing I mentioned to Jonathan was to thank him for finding a way to keep me out of NJ and buy wines locally! It's a lot easier driving to Newtown 5 minutes away than to drive over to Cherry Hill or Pennsauken for wine.

That said, I will still visit Moore Brothers for a lot of reasons, mostly the incredibly knowledgeable and approachable staff there.

[davidbdesilva]

Well, after saying what I just said, I still visit places like Philip's Fine Wines in Stockton and Welsh's Wines in Lambertville, though their prices are no better than Pa. (but the selection of fine wines is). I have yet to make it to places like Moore Brothers or Canal's and hope to in the future.

[mrbigjas]

True that, it does seem we have better wines with better prices here in PA. The first thing I mentioned to Jonathan was to thank him for finding a way to keep me out of NJ and buy wines locally! It's a lot easier driving to Newtown 5 minutes away than to drive over to Cherry Hill or Pennsauken for wine.

That said, I will still visit Moore Brothers for a lot of reasons, mostly the incredibly knowledgeable and approachable staff there.

i kind of think of the lcb and moore bros and for that matter some place like total wine as different sorts of stores. compared to food stores, the state store serves as my go-to place, like a good supermarket. moore bros. is kind of a specialty store, that i go to for the more obscure stuff and the generally interesting, different buys; and total wine or canals like a big discount store, for deals on liquor.

i mean, i know that doesn't change the legality of it. but that's how i think of it.

[Jeff L]

Well, after saying what I just said, I still visit places like Philip's Fine Wines in Stockton and Welsh's Wines in Lambertville, though their prices are no better than Pa. (but the selection of fine wines is). I have yet to make it to places like Moore Brothers or Canal's and hope to in the future.

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You really should go to Moore Brothers, it's quite a nice experience. Greg Moore is a former sommeliere of Le Bec Fin and he knows his wines better than anyone I know (maybe with the exception of our resident wine authority, Katie)

They specialize in smaller european wines that are mostly handcrafted. It is a unique approach to wine consumption starting with the fact that all their wine is rigidly temeperature controlled down to the constant 55 degrees in the store.

Check it out

[Jeff L]

I just picked up a bottle of the Bleasdale Shiraz/Cabernet blend yesterday and found it to be a really nice little wine. Best part of all, $9.99.

I went in to buy the Wishing Tree Shiraz and was tipped off to the Bleasdale by one of the employees in the Newtown store. Just when I was giving up hope at that store, guy turns me on to a real winner.

Try it, I'm going back to get a case of it. Nice smooth everyday sort of wine.

[KatieLoeb]

Greg Moore is a former sommeliere of Le Bec Fin and he knows his wines better than anyone I know (maybe with the exception of our resident wine authority, Katie)

Hey, I learned from the best! First, I had the pleasure of playing "Teaching Assistant" (read: wine glass polisher) for Greg during his series of classes through Penn that were taught at London Grill, back when I was Assistant General Manager there. For setting up and breaking down the room (that's 300 glasses hand polished, thank you very much) I had the privilege of sitting in on Greg's classes. They are very good classes and I highly recommend them. Several years later I was hired as Office Manager of the Moore Brothers stores and got to learn not only from Greg, but the rest of the wonderful staff there as well.

I've been extremely fortunate in having great mentors for my wine studies.

[shacke]

Greg Moore is a former sommeliere of Le Bec Fin and he knows his wines better than anyone I know (maybe with the exception of our resident wine authority, Katie)

Hey, I learned from the best! First, I had the pleasure of playing "Teaching Assistant" (read: wine glass polisher) for Greg during his series of classes through Penn that were taught at London Grill, back when I was Assistant General Manager there. For setting up and breaking down the room (that's 300 glasses hand polished, thank you very much) I had the privilege of sitting in on Greg's classes. They are very good classes and I highly recommend them. Several years later I was hired as Office Manager of the Moore Brothers stores and got to learn not only from Greg, but the rest of the wonderful staff there as well.

I've been extremely fortunate in having great mentors for my wine studies.

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I took his Bordeaux class and found it to be informative. Not sure if he does an Italy class (through Penn College of General Studies) but I would be into that.