Who is coming for dinner?

[FaustianBargain]

Mabelline: Thank you for the invitation. I was not trying to simplify dietary laws for my own comfort here. This thread is just plain information. Info for info sake.

Actually, I have been more of a bad guest than a good host. I have made some of my guests wash the dishes along with me. Good times. Reading the original thread that made me throw this one in as it brought back memories of how I'd casually inform my hosts that I am vegetarian...and it was not even a religious/moral/ethical issue for me..I was too lazy to change my habits and to try new things because they were 'eww' to me at that time and they *always* obliged...i do realise that there are people out there who, unlike me, take their religious dietary restrictions seriously..

tanabutler: Buddhists dietary laws are part of the seven-fold path which includes kindness to animals(i cant think of any religion that says..be cruel to animals, have you)...i suppose, like hinduism(a very small percentage of hindus are vegetarians, actually..even the very orthodox hindu brahmins used to be meat eaters in the pre vedic period..the discovery and publication of which caused a lot of conflict and verbal violence in the media and press) cruelty to animals takes a different interpretation when it comes to preserving and protecting life..jainism, iirc, is not that flexible...

re ISKCON...since they are a vaishnavite cult that has lord krishna as the main deity, they are indeed vegetarians...ISKCON is not a religious sect...there are many sects and sub sects in hinduism where vegetarianism is not mandatory....it is a misconception that all indians and all hindus are vegetarians.

alexhills: Back to ISKCON and their kitchens..

Lord Krishna's Cuisine by Yamuna Devi is a good book. It is simple vegetarian fare, but the ingredients may be a little hard to find..unless you can find an indian grocery store...

Bux: This wasnt intended to be a gospel, but as a broad guideline...before I looked it up, I didnt know that Rastafarians are vegetarians...

but I was always told it was a disservice to the higher power to make a fuss in someone's house or make a host feel uncomfortable and thus a refusal to eat proscribed meats might well be seen as a the greater sin.

I agree. For our graduation dinner, for example, we had quail stuffed with foie gras and it was the most ghastly piece of food I have ever put into my mouth. I could either follow etiquette and waste the food or pass it on to someone who will enjoy it more than I do(which i did). The lobster, however, I sent back because I am allergic to shellfish. I was hungry and wasnt going to skip the first course because I knew that there was a kitchen that is equipped to deal with my 'special' needs. If it had been dinner at a home where the hostess slaved over a hot stove, it is a different matter. During my vegetarian exile, I have never minded a chicken leg on my plate as long as it was willing to trot over to the neighbour's plate before the end of the meal. But being allergic to dairy, shellfish or eternal damnation is a good reason to inform people beforehand especially if they are going to prepare food you are going to waste anyways. There is no greater sin or nothing more criminal than wasting food. Havent you heard, there are children starving in....................? As our mothers have taught us, when finger-wagging instruction doesnt work, *always* unleash the guilt.

I will take exception to the statement that "almost all religious dietary laws were designed for healthy living in harmony with the environment," although I don't want to start a discussion on that. In my view, many, if not most, are quite arbitrary and seemed designed mostly to foster a kinship and shared set of rules and values to protect the community, i.e., to keep it intact and apart from other communities.

You just did! And I do agree with what followed the above quote too...Not wanting to risk going against egullet faith-based policies, I would just like to add that we are not and have never been rational beings. We are rationalising beings.

Behemoth: You are right! There are no restrictions re shellfish. I read that Sufis practiced vegetarianism, but Sufism emerged a long time after the Prophet's time in India. It probably was something to add increased appeal for the benefit of the local Indian populace. Vegetarianism is both kosher and halal because it doesnt violate any of the dietary laws as one can see from the various indian veg restaurants in nyc that advertise their kosher certification.

GiftedGourmet: agree completely re your rule of thumb!

[jackal10]

My rule of thumb? Always offer that which makes the most strictly observant comfortable ..

I think this is a terrible attempt at dictatorship by zealots and fanatics.

I have seen awful consequences of this attitude being adopted by our local synagogue, especially for the now ceased communal and pot-luck dinners, which were happily middle-of-the-road, and now has been taken over by the fanatics, who have driven away most of the congregation ("You are not proper Jews unless you...") . Other examples are certain mosques, where the extremists take over, and which can then act as recruiting grounds...

If someone is religous, or has other dietary fads or hang-ups, be it Atkins or the belief that eating chocolate will damn them for all time, then let them not eat at my table. I don't expect them to prepare special food for me when I eat with them. so why should they expect me? Maybe I should suddenly develop a belief that requires red meat at each meal, and regards vegetables as tools of the devil, full of poisons. After all, plants can't run away, so they use poison as a defence mechanism.

Come to visit by all means, but eat what I eat, or don't stay to supper.

[Mayhaw Man]

Come to visit by all means, but eat what I eat, or don't stay to supper.

Thanks for the invitation.

I will gladly stay. And do you have anymore of that cheese?

[Gifted Gourmet]

My rule of thumb? Always offer that which makes the most strictly observant comfortable ..

I think this is a terrible attempt at dictatorship by zealots and fanatics.

I know all about the "oneupsmanship" that occurs with various religious types ... believe me when I tell you that I had my daughter's Sweet Sixteen catered by a local kosher caterer and lived to regret it ... my home is kosher, yet not strict enough for some of her friends .. so I paid for what I could have done 1,000 times better for the "comfort" of her guests ... that was long ago and today I would handle the entire affair differently.

That said, it is still something I believe, that under my roof, all I invite shall be "comfortable" .. just my mishegas ...

[bloviatrix]

Judaism: Kosher laws prohibit shellfish and pork. Meat and dairy in the same meal is not considered kosher. Leavened bread is restricted during certain times. Kosher law requires ritual slaughter. Fasting is part of the annual religious Jewish dietary calender.(regular coke is prohibited during passover and not considered kosher because it contains corn syrup...maybe someone here can explain why it is so...)

I am sure the observant Jews will have definitive answers for us after Shabbot, but it is my understanding that the corn syrup thing has to do with "kitniyot", things that resemble the "chametz" grains -- wheat, spelt, barley, oats, and rye -- which are forbidden during Passover if they have been leavened or processed for more than 18 minutes (which is why matzoh is produced the way it is).

Ashkenazic Jews (those from Eastern Europe) avoid kitniyot (including things like corn and peas, lentils, etc.) during Passover because, since they resemble the chametz grains, the kitniyot might in theory contain undetectable amounts of those grains.

Sephardic Jews, as far as I am aware, never developed this prohibition.

I hope bloviatrix or someone will correct anything I have gotten wrong.

Cheers,

Squeat

Oh, and the change in that Catholic meat/fish/Friday thing was the result of Vatican II, right?

Squeat -- great job with the explanation.

One thing though, depending on where you live, you can get kosher for passover Coke. They bring back the original formula using cane sugar. It's very popular with true "coke" heads who snap it up therebye making it difficult for those of us who follow kashrut to find.

[Mayhaw Man]

I live in an area that is predominately Catholic (somthing like 75 % or so). During lent, every single restaurant in the area (Louisiana below I-10) features fish. While the Vatican dictates may not require it anymore, many Catholics still choose to give up meat altogether for Lent and virtually all of them cease eating the stuff on Friday.

Frankly, as a non Catholic, I have always loved this as we often see dishes on menus that one would not normally see.

My sons are in Catholic School and I notice that they do not have meat on the menu on Fridays ever. Old habit I guess.

[cdh]

Jackal10's said it quite well... imposing one person's foibles on a whole gathering seems problematic.

As a goy with a thoroughly unkosher kitchen, no strictly observant Jew could eat anything I cook... and I've thoughtlessly invited some of the observant over for my summer weekend gastronomic adventures... fortunately they've had the good sense and common decency to decline my invitations rather than turning up and pointing out that they can't eat a thing.

If people who are really your friends have these sorts of issues, they should display the social grace to suggest a neutral destination where they can consume, and another time to get together.

How about the other side of this coin-- What are the best meals you've had that were the product of religious restrictions? I've never done a Seven Fishes dinner, but have had some really tasty matzoh ball soup at seders and a good meatless borcht in an Eastern Orthodox tradition. What ritually pure foods are really really good eating for all concerned, regardless?

Edited August 15, 2004 by cdh (log)

[FaustianBargain]

I have seen awful consequences of this attitude being adopted by our local synagogue, especially for the now ceased communal and pot-luck dinners, which were happily middle-of-the-road, and now has been taken over by the fanatics, who have driven away most of the congregation ("You are not proper Jews unless you...") . Other examples are certain mosques, where the extremists take over, and which can then act as recruiting grounds...

whoa!! slow down sparky! where did *that* come from!!

I can point to at least one logical fallacy in that comparison, but on second thoughts...I am not going to bite.

I don't expect them to prepare special food for me when I eat with them. so why should they expect me?

I dont expect to be abandoned like an orphan when I am invited by someone...maybe it was the constant change of cultures, cuisines and fads that turned me into a demanding bitch at the table and this is just personal preference and not a strong belief as the trappings of religion can be...dont get me wrong..but some of the western foods are utterly unpalatable to me...i cant even stomach the regional variations of indian cuisine...maybe its my curse and i will have to live with saying no to certain foods...but I am *not* going to fill up before dinner or spend more money on after-dinner dinner just because...

Come to visit by all means, but eat what I eat, or don't stay to supper.

Well said! I mirror that sentiment, but what if you invite someone to your table? Will you call someone, demand their time and declare that if they dont eat what you eat, they will simply have to leave your table...what if the main objective of the gathering is not food/eating? do they sit by the corner and bring their own lunchbox?

[jhlurie]

Jackal10's said it quite well...  imposing one person's foibles on a whole gathering seems problematic.

While I understand his general objection, and heck, even agree with the idea that a "least common denominator" approach is wrong, I think we need to keep in mind that villainizing ALL people who keep to strict dietary restrictions isn't the way to go either. Certainly, I think as individuals we have the right to choose who and what to serve, but I also don't think we are in a position to properly judge a mindset we don't share. Jackal's post also assumes that the actions of a host who might want to make a guest feel comfortable are somehow deliberate extremist actions seeded by those visitors. To me that seems a bit absurd.

Personally I think dietary laws are bullshit. But not only am I not going to impose that belief on others, I'm also inclined to look the other way as long as their restrictions aren't forced down my throat. That would be the dictatorship Jackal refers to, not some innocuous gesture of hospitality by a host. Even if by necessity I AM that host, I'll have whatever the heck I want on MY plate, but respect what they don't want on theirs. This, to me, is not an issue of personal freedom--it's an issue of ettiquette.

[FaustianBargain]

What ritually pure foods are really really good eating for all concerned, regardless?

you cant go wrong with vegetarian food...unfortunately, it will be mostly mush....unless you are *really* creative...

[Gifted Gourmet]

Actually, I must admit I know precisely what Jackal is referring to here .. the so called "fanatics" use levels of kashrut as a means of oneupsmanship and looking down upon the culinary offerings of others far more often now than before ..

I have personally witnessed this "new" phenomenon myself ... It is a way of demonstarting one's newfound religiosity by making food the issue .. what used to be fine is now "suspect" and a haughty "Oh I would never eat in ----'s home" takes on what I consider a sanctimoniousness that I find annoying, no, let me be honest, incredibly irritating ..

and I simply don't invite those who persist in what I deem a "food farce" ...

[jackal10]

I dont expect to be abandoned like an orphan when I am invited by someone...

If you have some dietary restrictions, then its part of the invitation negotiation.I'm always careful to ask about dietary restrictions, or warn people what we are likely to eat when I invite people. If you have strong food issues, like vegetarian, it means I either have to cook seperately for you, or invite you on your own, and the evening becomes centred around you.

I wonder if some people do it just for the attention. Certainly it is often said with a sense of holier-than-thou ("I'm special. I only eat xxx. I'll go to heaven/live forever/ while you rot in hell"), when it is in fact a handicap, often self-imposed, and should be pitied.

On the whole I'd prefer to socialise by not inviting special eaters for a meal, but some other activity, unless the evening is entirely in their honour. I recently did a dinner where half were strict vegetarian, and the others were on Atkins. A challenge. Fortunately they all ate eggs. We had soup, salad, souffle, sorbet, roulade and three deserts.

The worst are people who arrive and then say "Oh, by the way I'm vegetarian/don't eat carbs/shellfish/foie gras", when you just cooked that for them. .

My niece, for example, who is meshuganer frum , won't even drink a glass of water in my house. I find that strange, but its her problem, in that it restricts our social interaction.

Edited August 15, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[FaustianBargain]

I dont expect to be abandoned like an orphan when I am invited by someone...

If you have some dietary restrictions, then its part of the invitation negotiation.I'm always careful to ask about dietary restrictions, or warn people what we are likely to eat when I invite people. If you have strong food issues, like vegetarian, it means I either have to cook seperately for you, or invite you on your own, and the evening becomes centred around you.

I wonder if some people do it just for the attention. On the whole I'd prefer to socialise by not inviting you for a meal, but some other activity. I recently did a dinner where half were strict vegetarian, and the others were on Atkins. Fortuantely they ate eggs. A challenge. We had Soup, salad, souffle, sorbet, roulade (a good veggy standby), and three deserts.

The worst are people who arrive and then say "Oh, by the way I'm vegetarian/don't eat carbs/shellfish/foie gras", when you just cooked that for them. .

My niece, for example, who is meshuganer frum , won't even drink a glass of water in my house. I find that hurtful, but its her problem, in that it restricts our social interaction.

i think we are missing something here..lets list the scenarios:

1.you invite someone and ask for their dietary preferences.

2.you invite someone and they inform you of their dietary preferences beforehand

3.you invite someone and they inform you of their dietary preferences after its too late.

4.someone drops by without informing you to break bread

A has a food preference. B has a food prohibition. It is easier to design the evening around B than around A...why? because its the right thing to do.

Atkins and vegetarians at the same table. My sympathies.

About people who do it for attention .. dont we all or we'd just hire a chef for the evening instead of cooking it ourselves...surely, there is some redeeming quality that your fussy guest possess that stresses the need for you to consider them on the guest list...its easier to drop them off the list instead of inviting them without an either/or option...the burden is ON you...you cant simply invite someone and refuse to accomodate their needs...

Personally, I am thinking that creating a menu that combines meat, fish and vegetarian options is not that big a deal...cant back that up as i have no real life experience..just speculating..will inform you when i have sailed that way...

re your niece..its not about food preferences/restrictions..its about excluding you on basis of your beliefs or lack of...been there, got the t-shirt...although never from someone younger than me....i suppose its easier to stomach it when its someone elder who acts that way...the niece situation is a whole different ball game.

almost all dining is geared towards social interaction....restricting on the basis on one's exclusionary dietary preferences doesnt seem logical.

[Bux]

Mabelline: Thank you for the invitation. I was not trying to simplify dietary laws for my own comfort here. This thread is just plain information. Info for info sake.

It appears to be either at attempt at what Mabelline says it is or more likely, an attempt to guide a prospective host. On that issue, I'll repeat my warnings that a little information can be a dangerous thing and an assumption that one has learned enough to be the good host can lead to many unforeseen problems. Those who get the religious information from this site, or from this thread and act upon that information may regret that they didn't learn much more.

Bux: This wasnt intended to be a gospel, but as a broad guideline...before I looked it up, I didnt know that Rastafarians are vegetarians...

Precisely, and if it is an important subject, it deserves more research than has been put into this thread. In any event, a broad guideline is useless as it doesn't let you know exactly how many in any group are not covered by the material included. A truly observant Jew would not eat meat from a plate or a fork that ever came in contact with a milk product and vice versa. On the other hand, many people who profess to be Jewish, have no trouble eating bacon. Following your broad guideline one may well have gone to needless trouble, or not nearly enough trouble.

[Rebel Rose]

I had no idea entertaining could be so complicated . . . although I had never really considered before that people who live in very ethnically intense areas may have many good friends with strict dietary habits, and to host an evening of dining and good conversation, one would want to make an effort to please everyone. Helping your guests feel included and appreciated is part of being a good host.

However, I can definitely sympathise with the "eat what I serve or not" approach, simply because our entertaining is generally very impromptu and involves kids, dogs, and surprise guests. Well, heck, even the timing can be a surprise--like, a barbecue? Now? Oooookay . . .

I think if one knows that guests may have dietary leanings, and if you're not sure what to do, just have a potluck dinner and ask your guests to bring something special that reflects their culture and diet. Nice paper plates, cups and flatware take care of the plating issues. (Definitely recommending a glass of wine for the hostess before the party.)

[cakewalk]

Decision-making demands a certain amount of integrity. Also a bit of thought.

There are many groups of those who consider themselves, and are considered by others, to be "most religious," and each group will abide by differing decisions. (Orthodox Judaism springs readily to mind here.) This doesn't make one group "right" and the other "wrong." It means they have made different decisions for themselves (religious laws are, after all, interpreted). Most are honest enough to realize that they have made those decisions for themselves, and not for others. And they would, most likely, respond to your thoughtful dinner invitation with an equally thoughtful refusal. For those who accept the invitation, as Bux said early on, they have a certain obligation to inform their hosts of their own particular needs. If the host is able and willing to fulfill those needs, fine and dandy. If not, well, it's always nice for mature adults to behave like mature adults.

If I invite someone to my home for a meal, it's because I want them to be there. So yes, I would (and have) gone out of my way to cook things that they can eat. Or, more accurately, to not cook. (Cold foods, salads, fruit, etc. have a different standing in terms of keeping kosher.) I keep a kosher home, but I know plenty of people whose observance of kashrut differs dramatically from mine, and they would not be comfortable eating a cooked meal in my home. I don't take this as an insult. I understand the differences. They are not trying to demean me in any way. They just observe things differently.

As is often the case, the issue at hand is not really "religion." It is "personality." There are many people who want to force their beliefs on others. There are also "others" who resent everyone else's beliefs, whether or not there's any forcing going on. I try to sidestep this stuff.

Last night I had dinner at the home of old friends of mine. They don't keep kosher at all. (They're not Jewish.) They always have something vegetarian for me. (And the husband is a serious cook, so it's always good.) There are a lot of Jews who wouldn't eat anything in my friends' home, because their utensils are not kosher no matter what they cook, but I do eat there. There's no need for either of us to pass judgement on the other. We all make different decisions for ourselves. Accept it.

[LaurieA-B]

Seventh Day Adventists: The most devout are vegetarians and the strictest form of dietary restrictions involve being a vegan. Mostly prohibited are pork, shellfish, alcohol, coffee, tea.

I went to the doctor and was a candy striper at an Adventist hospital. (I was brought up Catholic, but this was our neighborhood hospital and patients came from all religions.) Meat was not excluded at the hospital, but I knew some Adventists there who were vegetarian. The most notable exclusions in the hospital cafeteria were caffeine (only decaf coffee, tea, and soft drinks were offered) and black pepper. I think they may have avoided chiles and other spices as well, but I only remember the black pepper clearly because when you looked around the dining room, you saw a lone salt shaker on every table. I don't have any reliable information about the Adventist diet to explain this, however.

While Vatican II removed the "fish on Fridays" rule, except during Lent, lots of Catholics continue the tradition. During Lent I usually ate a tuna sandwich for lunch and fish sticks for dinner (we rarely ate fresh fish growing up, perhaps because my siblings and I were annoyingly picky. Pity my mother cooking for six picky children.)

[jhlurie]

If I invite someone to my home for a meal, it's because I want them to be there. So yes, I would (and have) gone out of my way to cook things that they can eat. Or, more accurately, to not cook.

Right. I agree with this entirely, despite my proclamation that dietary laws are bullshit. You have a social responsibility as a host which has NOTHING to do with your own belief system, and even less to do with some kind of organized religious effort at food tyranny.

However the balance swings the other way if your guests haven't informed you beforehand of their limitations. They can't assume your know, and if they do--at least in my mind--the responsibility moves back onto their shoulders.

The host, I think, also has a responsibility to not push at his guest's food limitations. I still say you can eat what you want, but "yummy, yummy you don't know what you are missing" type of comments would be crass.

Back on the guests' side, I'd say they also have a responsibility to not make unreasonable demands, and to express their concerns as courteously as they expect them to be fulfilled. With kosher laws, for example, I could see where the resentment might form if someone starts grilling you about how many sets of dishes you have, and where they came from. But I think that a guest with those concerns, who didn't want to be annoying, would simply suggest paper plates in a matter-of-fact manner instead of giving you the third degree.

To me, the unifying principal behind each of these "responsibilities" is courtesy. Isn't that supposed to be a requirement for both hosts AND guests?

[slyaspie]

I grew up in a pretty strict Greek Orthodox household. Meat is to be avoided on Wednesdays and Fridays, although fish is ok on these days but not both in the same week (Fri was usually fish day). Both days are traditionally the day to eat boiled legumes (lentils, favas, black-eyed peas, or white beans) with all kinds of crazy greens my family imported over here and grow which I don't even know the name of...apparently they grow wild over in Cyprus and are a staple. You load up a plate of the legumes and greens, drizzle liberally with olive oil, squeeze tons of lemon, salt, pepper, sprinkle on some finely diced onion and mix up the whole thing really well and start scooping it up with your bread in one hand and your fork in the other. Really hated this as a kid, love it now (I always loved the greens, and in the spring and summer the favas and black eyed peas are boiled green and fresh, partly in the pods, partly shelled, and also big chunks of this big light green squash, seeds also brought over from the mother island and planted with great success here). To round out the meal there was always a dish of olives and maybe another of sliced haloumi, and another of caper leaves still on their stems (with the tiny thorns), cured in vinegar and olive oil. The thing is, this was not only a wed/fri meal (fri. also usually included a fried whole fish that everyone picked off of) but also a typical village meal in my parents' and grandparents' time because this was the staple for Greeks who lived off the land, and sometimes the only things they had to eat. And let me tell you, they looooved to tell me that when I would make a face at the dried favas. Other common dishes are to make really rich vegetable stews with tomato bases or roasted vegetable stews (any combo of potatoes, cauliflower, zucchini, okra, egglant, artichokes, etc.), fried potatoes, eggplants, okra and zuchinnis with eggs scrambled in them, or tender greens and chopped fresh artichokes scrambled with eggs.

During Lent we are supposed to give up meat, eggs and dairy for the whole forty days, but what most people do except for the extremely devout, is fast for the first week and last week everything, and but then include the eggs and the dairy for the time in between. During the last week, things get really really strict, and the last couple of days we are not allowed to eat even oil, because of the law that we must not ingest any fats at all. This of course means two days (fri and sat before easter) of boiled legumes and greens with only lemon, bread, olives (but not olive oil), special bread that has had sesame and anise baked into the crust, grape leaves filled with plain cooked bulger wheat, raw vegetables and fruits. We could not cook with oil at all. This is a torturous time for Greek kids, we all always tried to sneak better food. The thing is that a lot of the celebratory easter foods that are filled with cheese, eggs, dairy, oil, meat are traditionally made on fri and sat. To have the house filled with incredible smells and food just waiting at your fingertips while being forced to endure a diet of twigs was a particularly evil torture.

Of course as soon as we were let out of midnight mass at 2 am, the eating began, with most people not going to bed until five, and eating the traditional soup, magherritsa (made with lamb and it's offal), or avgolemono with chicken, usually both, dyed red eggs, cheese, and TONS of sweets. The feasting then continues the next day, usually with a small lunch of fried goat livers and sweet breads and then the huge dinner which sometimes even included a roasted goat head along with all the regular goat pieces and potatoes in the traditional outdoor, stone oven that one of my great uncles built for my parents.

Things of course are a little less strict than when I was growing up, but almost all the Greeks I know still pretty much follow these rules, except for the wed. thing, although my family still won't eat meat on wednesdays.

edited to add that we ate A LOT of nuts, my mom's apricot marmalade, halvah and bread with honey the last two days before easter. I know that the nuts and the halvah have fat in them, but for some reason they were ok to eat. Natural peanut butter was ok too.

Edited August 16, 2004 by slyaspie (log)

[FaustianBargain]

[...]On that issue, I'll repeat my warnings that a little information can be a dangerous thing and an assumption that one has learned enough to be the good host can lead to many unforeseen problems. Those who get the religious information from this site, or from this thread and act upon that information may regret that they didn't learn much more.

Bux: This wasnt intended to be a gospel, but as a broad guideline...before I looked it up, I didnt know that Rastafarians are vegetarians...

Precisely, and if it is an important subject, it deserves more research than has been put into this thread. In any event, a broad guideline is useless as it doesn't let you know exactly how many in any group are not covered by the material included. A truly observant Jew would not eat meat from a plate or a fork that ever came in contact with a milk product and vice versa. On the other hand, many people who profess to be Jewish, have no trouble eating bacon. Following your broad guideline one may well have gone to needless trouble, or not nearly enough trouble.

I am very well aware of the slew of warnings that are whooshing past for this topic and frankly it confounds me. A little information can be a dangerous thing? OK. So what are you suggesting? That such threads shouldnt exist or that it should be exhaustingly elaborate and precise? This was also meant to be an invitation for others to participate and some of them have done that. Did I, at any point of time, suggest that this thread is also to serve as a source of religious information?

Tell me, please? Because I am utterly confused. The messages that is coming through from most of the people(especially, the established older members of egullet) is discouraging as it seems to be a rap on my knuckle for bringing this topic up. Worse, I see to have ruffled many a feather for not going into 'more research'. Is not knowing that Jews dont mix meat and dairy better than NOT knowing anything about it at all? If there are subtleties about the various dietary practices even within the religious groups, maybe this is a place to register it instead of flogging the validity of the thread itself. What *is* the point of discussion if it's credibility is questioned because of the lack of reams and reams of papers of 'research'?

Have a nice day.

[cakewalk]

I didn't read Bux's post as saying that this thread shouldn't exist. I read it as a caution to people who don't realize that a thread such as this can never cover all the complexities of religious dietary prohibitions. There are a lot of people who simply don't realize that, and it is important to point it out.

There was an eGullet thread a while back about a man who started selling his crabcakes (or maybe it was shrimp, I don't remember the details) and advertised them as strictly kosher. Apparently, someone had told him that kosher meant "clean," and he figured, well, my stuff is clean. That's an extreme example, of course. But the point is that it's always a good idea to keep in mind that, no matter how much you might know, there are always going to be aspects of religious doctrine that you most likely don't know.

BTW -- slyaspie -- that was a fascinating post.

[Mabelline]

slyaspie, I was never aware that a goat had sweetbreads like cattle have. Do they also disappear as the animal ages? You have enlightened me, as usual. By the way, that meal with the fresh blackeyes, squash, and greens is right up my alley!! Especially with the tons of lemon---lemon is the only thing I crave after a good dose of chemo,lately. Scooping it up with a fork and bread is perfect! I think fresh blackeyes are one of the great unknown treasures. And if you ever get the chance, ladypeas are an absolute pearl of great price!!!

[Bux]

slyaspie, I was never aware that a goat had sweetbreads like cattle have. Do they also disappear as the animal ages?

I never thought about goats as kid is not seen a lot in NYC. It's available frozen in my butcher shop in Chinatown, but I've not seen anything as perishable as kid sweetbreads. I guess it's not surprising to learn they exist. I assume they exist only in the very young. I know that only young lambs have sweetbreads. The name I have seen used for them in Spain has something to do with "suckling." (Lechoncillas comes to mind, but that might not be accurate.) I assume that's an idication that they exist only in suckling lambs.

[Mabelline]

Thank you, Bux. I've only been exposed to sweetbreads as a gland of cattle, till now. Now I wonder if young bison have them as well. I mean, obviously, animals will have thymus glands, but I never added 2+2 till slyaspie brought it up.

You have to admit, that blackeyes recipe sounds killer!

[chile_peppa]

I have many American Indian friends, and we never serve alcohol at our gatherings. It's not exactly a dietary law, but rather an acknowledgment that many people have struggled to overcome alcohol addiction and that alcohol is a hindrance to certain spiritual matters. It is considered quite inconsiderate to serve any alcohol. When we have a celebratory feast, we generally have food representing the four-legged (venison if available) ones, the finned ones (generally salmon), and the winged ones (turkey). Wild rice (manomin) and corn are also served. Each of these foods has a spiritual meaning.