California Champagne or Sparkler?

[CtznCane]

Why shouldn't California (or other domestic) sparklers be called Champagne? I hate trying to be politically correct ( and will not be from this point forth) and call them "Sparklers" or "Domestic Sparklers" when in fact the style of wine is Champagne.

Only in the Champagne region of France do they bill their sparkling wines primarily behind the name of the region as opposed to other areas that are predominantly named and recognized by the Chateau with the region they are from being secondary. I don't know the answer but do they call their still wines (if any) from that region Champagne?

For the most part, we've not had a problem on other wines we haven't had a problem as they are primarily named for the varietal. Better yet American wineries have come up with indiviualized names on their blends.

Regardless of whether or not we should label it champagne, for discussion puproses in talking about a wine, champagne just plain fits and rolls off the tongue more easily than 'domestic sparkler' (sounds like fireworks) or 'sparkling wine.'

What about Port for that matter? Why isn't Portugal up in arms? Perhaps the difference is that the French may believe people will think it actually came from France.

Hmmmmm, it strikes me that perhaps we should be complaining to the French about their labeling. I want to see a nice label on that insanely overpriced Chateau Petrus calling it Merlot.

So much for my rant, at least I've eased myself of the burden of calling a champagne styled wine by any other name than Champagne.

[Coop]

I think you can call them whatever you want. It's when you try to make money off of their years of success, then you may have a problem. Should the maker of a Bulgarian nebbiolo be able to call his wine Gaja? Or for that matter Barolo?

However in the privacy of my own home I can call it whatever I want, Barolo, Brunello, or even Petrus.

Edited August 6, 2004 by Coop (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

Nowhere else in the world are sparkling wines labeled Champagne. In California, we've just about said goodbye forever to Chablis and Burgundy. We can do the same with Champagne.

In another thread on this page a court has ruled that the use of Napa Valley should apply only to wine where the grapes come from Napa Valley. No winemakers making money on the success of the words Napa Valley. Why the double standard?

[Carolyn Tillie]

What about Port for that matter? Why isn't Portugal up in arms?

Actually they are.

There is a HUGE movement in Europe right now on the rights of names that originated from places. The members of the EU are trying to get some agreement established that will keep makers of such products as Cognac, Champagne, Parma cheese (Parmesan) and ham among others items from being thus named if produced outside its area of origin.

[MsMelkor]

I believe this legal protection for Champagne was established under the Madrid Agreement (1891) and confirmed at the Treaty of Versailles (1919). Since the US never signed the Treaty of Versailles, we don't abide by this rule. However, members of the EU (among others) do.

[Really Nice!]

There is a HUGE movement in Europe right now on the rights of names that originated from places. The members of the EU are trying to get some agreement established that will keep makers of such products as Cognac, Champagne, Parma cheese (Parmesan) and ham among others items from being thus named if produced outside its area of origin.

Feta cheese from Greece too.

For what it's worth, here's the text from the BATF Code of Federal Regulations discussing how to refer to "sparkling grape wine."

    (b) Class 2; sparkling grape wine. (1) Sparkling grape wine

(including ``sparkling wine,'' ``sparkling red wine'' and ``sparkling

white wine'') is grape wine made effervescent with carbon dioxide

resulting solely from the fermentation of the wine within a closed

container, tank or bottle.

    (2) Champagne is a type of sparkling light wine which derives its

effervescence solely from the secondary fermentation of the wine within

glass containers of not greater than one gallon capacity, and which

possesses the taste, aroma, and other characteristics attributed to

champagne as made in the champagne district of France.

    (3)(i) A sparkling light wine having the taste, aroma, and

characteristics generally attributed to champagne but not otherwise

conforming to the standard for ``champagne'' may, in addition to but not

in lieu of the class designation ``sparkling wine,'' be further

designated as:

    (A) ``champagne style;'' or

    (B) ``champagne type;'' or

    (C ) ``American (or New York State, Napa Valley, etc.) champagne,''

along with one of the following terms: ``Bulk process,'' ``fermented

outside the bottle,'' ``secondary fermentation outside the bottle,''

``secondary fermentation before bottling,'' ``not fermented in the

bottle,'' or ``not bottle fermented.'' The term ``charmat method'' or

``charmat process'' may be used as additional information.

    (ii) Labels shall be so designed that all the words in such further

designation are readily legible under ordinary conditions and are on a

contrasting background. In the case of paragraph (b)(3)(i)(C ) of this

section, ATF will consider whether the label as a whole provides the

consumer with adequate information about the method of production and

origin of the wine. ATF will evaluate each label for legibility and

clarity, based on such factors as type size and style for all components

of the further designation and the optional term ``charmat method'' or

[[Page 18]]

``charmat process,'' as well as the contrast between the lettering and

its background, and the placement of information on the label.

    (iii) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (b)(3)(i)(A), (B)

and (C ) of this section, the appropriate ATF officer may authorize the

use of a term on sparkling wine labels, as an alternative to those terms

authorized in paragraph (b)(3)(i) of this section, but not in lieu of

the required class designation ``sparkling wine,'' upon a finding that

such term adequately informs the consumer about the method of production

of the sparkling wine.

    (4) Crackling wine, petillant wine, frizzante wine (including

cremant, perlant, reciotto, and other similar wine) is sparkling light

wine normally less effervescent than champagne or other similar

sparkling wine, but containing sufficient carbon dioxide in solution to

produce, upon pouring under normal conditions, after the disappearance

of air bubbles, a slow and steady effervescence evidenced by the

formation of gas bubbles flowing through the wine. Crackling wine which

derives its effervescence from secondary fermentation in containers

greater than 1-gallon capacity shall be designated ``crackling wine--

bulk process,'' and the words ``bulk process'' shall appear in lettering

of substantially the same size as the words ``crackling wine.''

    (c ) Class 3; carbonated grape wine. ``Carbonated grape wine''

(including ``carbonated wine,'' ``carbonated red wine,'' and

``carbonated white wine'') is grape wine made effervescent with carbon

dioxide other than that resulting solely from the secondary fermentation

of the wine within a closed container, tank or bottle.

This is actually an interesting read as you progress towards the bottom of the document.

Did you know that 259 grape varieties have been approved by the Director for use as type designations for American wines?

And that Rulander is an approved name substitute for Pinot Gris?

[CtznCane]

In another thread on this page a court has ruled that the use of Napa Valley should apply only to wine where the grapes come from Napa Valley. No winemakers making money on the success of the words Napa Valley. Why the double standard?

The Napa Valley ruling is what fueled my question. Labeling a product to mislead people on where it is from is a different story than the name of a style of wine in my opinion.

35 years ago, when nobody read labels or knew too much about wine over here, maybe they had more of a bitch, at least with Chablis or Burgundy. Perhaps though they should have been most offended at what was being offered about at that time. I can even go along with them taking offense at a bottle of Andre's Cold Duck being called Champagne. It is hard now to imagine anyone of drinking age not being able to understand that wine from California is not French wine, German wine, or whatever.

If Champagne is such a region oriented name, tell em to take Epernay or Reims. To me that is like having a Cabernet and saying Napa Valley or Alexander Valley. Cabernet is the style of wine, the latter where it is from. So, here it sounds like Champagne is the style of wine and Epernay is where it is from.

Grape names I can live with. Both in their actual name, the way they roll off the tongue, and for their abbrevated names. Give me Cabernet/Cab, Pinot Noir/Pinot, Zinfandel/Zin, Chardonnay/Chard, and so on. But what? Give me a Bubbly? A sparkler? Nah, sorry, this is the one wine we (the collective we, me, myself, I and all other like minded opinonated sobs) should, can, and will call Champagne. With as much as we've done for the French and the little they've done for us over the last 100 years you think they'd say fine. But no, and probably less so now that our Champagne is better than theirs.

Perhaps the goal of the wine industry, hell, let's have a contest, should come up with a nice one word name for domestic Champagne so that we will no longer offend those ne'er do wells. Until then, when I want a good champagne, I'll reach for a Califronia Champagne.

[Carolyn Tillie]

Until then, when I want a good champagne, I'll reach for a Califronia Champagne.

But to many of us, that sounds like reaching for a "California Paris" or a "California Berlin" or a "California New York." Just because the name of a place has been so long associated with a product, if MOST of the rest of the world doesn't follow suit, why should we overbearing Americans push our desires on them? You don't see bottles of "Austrian Champagne" or "Italian Champagne." Just we silly Americans do that...

[little ms foodie]

Can we call Oregon California then, they make wine too!

Champagne is Champagne, Cava is Cava, Prosecco is Prosecco......

What California SHOULD do is market a unique name for theirs.....

nothing irks me more than asking for a glass of CHAMPAGNE in a restaurant only to get a glass of Chandon. Well actually there is one thing...it's when I ask for a glass of Zin and they say "White Zin???" like it's the same. Ok, that is a different topic! grrrrr.....

[CtznCane]

" Just we silly Americans do that...

The Germans have a nice one word name Sekt. The Itallians Prosecco. New Yorker's have their own Language. We Californians and other American's, untill we find a one word name for it that we like better call it Champagne. To repeat once again though, I (and I feel many others) call it Champagne due to its style of wine. That the particular style comes from that region is just how it happens to be. If this is so odd, then why, oh why do people say something like "I had a nice French Champagne....." and don't tell me you haven't heard the terminology "French Champagne" used on many occasions.

[Jason Perlow]

The term "Methòde Champagnoise" is used for any wine that is produced in the style and process of Champagne.

Obviously any wine made from varietals used in this process other than Pinot Noir, Chardonnay or Pinot Meunier cannot be called a Methòde Champagnoise.

Our own Craig Camp wrote a nice article about this for the Daily Gullet:

http://www.egullet.com/?pg=ARTICLE-campdollars

[Craig Camp]

" Just we silly Americans do that...

The Germans have a nice one word name Sekt. The Itallians Prosecco. New Yorker's have their own Language. We Californians and other American's, untill we find a one word name for it that we like better call it Champagne. To repeat once again though, I (and I feel many others) call it Champagne due to its style of wine. That the particular style comes from that region is just how it happens to be. If this is so odd, then why, oh why do people say something like "I had a nice French Champagne....." and don't tell me you haven't heard the terminology "French Champagne" used on many occasions.

Prosecco is the name of a grape. You can buy still, sparkling and grappa called prosecco.

Metodo classico or metodo tradizionale is the name of Champagne method sparkling wines in Italy.

Also, sparkling wine labeled Franciacorta can only be made from the metodo classico so usually don't mention that on the label.

[Craig Camp]

If Champagne is such a region oriented name, tell em to take Epernay or Reims.

The name of the French region where Epernay and Reims are located is Champagne. It is the name of a place, not an idea. By this logic you would have to change the name of Burgundy also. The word Champagne comes from the type of soil you see in this region and in the Cognac zone (which is why the word Champagne appears on Cognac labels). The name was in use before the wine as we know it today was created. Dom Perignon did not say, "I'm drinking stars. Let's call it Champagne." The wine was named for where they made it, not how they made it.

[porkpa]

In my opinion when California wineries label their product as Champagne or anything else that it isn't, they are just denigrating what they produce. If their product isn't good enough to stand alone on its own identity, then the message they are sending is just that. "what we are selling is inferior, so we are calling it by the name of something which it is not".

Porkpa

[Brad Ballinger]

If Champagne is such a region oriented name, tell em to take Epernay or Reims.

In addition to the word "Champagne" on bottles where the grapes come from Champagne, you will see premier cru and grand cru labeling, if the grapes come from such a cru. You will see Bouzy Grand Cru, Avize Grand Cru, Ay Grand Cru. These are all names of villages. They aren't Reims or Epernay, but they're not far away.

The Germans have a nice one word name Sekt.

This is the term the Germans use for "sparkling wine." It works for them. Why shouldn't it work for California? There is sekt made from riesling, pinot blanc, pinot noir, chardonnay, and some other grapes blended in on occasion. You will also see the name place the sekt comes from in terms of region, village, and vineyard (if appropriate).

As Craig mentioned, prosecco is a grape. Italian sparkling wine carries many designations -- frizzante and spumante being the most prevelant. But in the Franciacorta DOC, as Craig mentions, the wines are made methode champenoise and carry associated words such as Brut on the label.

Sparkling wines from other areas of France will identify them as sparkling wine through words such as petillant or cremant.

In California, it's just plain old opportunism. Label domestic sprarkling wine as "Champagne" because the squareheads in America call anything with bubbles Champagne. The ignorance of the public is no excuse.

They can change the name from syrah or shiraz on the label no problem because we're dealing with a grape variety (just like they can call a wine pinot grigio or pinot gris). But to use "Champagne" is just plain wrong. And what makes it worse is they know it but do it anyway.

[Ted Task]

Over my years in the wine trade, I've come to realize that everyone wants to "Ride the hot horse". So when a NON Champagne producer (note the cap. C) mislabels his wine, he is just plain trading on anothers reputation.

Ms Melker was right about the treaty that WE did not sign (typical American arrogance ) because ( at that time the largest congressional delegation was the Empire -NY- State,) and at that time NY was the largest sparkling wine prodcution center in the country. Get the picture?

I've been priviledged to represent several of the great Champagne houses, and to ALSO be responsible for a couple of superb American Sparkler producers. All have honed skills, all produce the best "Bubbly" that they can and ALL taste wonderful.

My answer to anyone is, first TASTE, TASTE, TASTE, then determine what your pocketbook can handle on that specific occasion. There are times when we drink

American and there are times we drink French and still other times when we drink

Spanish..etc etc.........just as we do not go to the same restaurants night after night. My final thought is , just because the FRENCH government doesn't seem very "nice" right now, it's just maybe the way WE are seen by others in the world. So don't allow your purely political passions deprive you of some spectacular imbibing.

Ted Task

[CtznCane]

In California, it's just plain old opportunism. Label domestic sprarkling wine as "Champagne" because the squareheads in America call anything with bubbles Champagne. The ignorance of the public is no excuse.

Opportunism? You think those in California can't or don't recognize the difference? If it is opportunism in terms of taking advantage of peoples ignorance it seems that would be directed more at areas like the Midwest perhaps.

As to "squareheads in America", that is excactly the type of attitude exhibited by those who refer or think of themsevles as wine experts that pisses people off all the more as to how they refer to wines. It is that type of snobbery that leads to even more irreverance.

Ms Melker was right about the treaty that WE did not sign (typical American arrogance ) because ( at that time the largest congressional delegation was the Empire -NY- State,) and at that time NY was the largest sparkling wine prodcution center in the country. Get the picture?

I've been priviledged to represent several of the great Champagne houses, and to ALSO be responsible for a couple of superb American Sparkler producers. All have honed skills, all produce the best "Bubbly" that they can and ALL taste wonderful.........My final thought is , just because the FRENCH government doesn't seem very "nice" right now, it's just maybe the way WE are seen by others in the world. So don't allow your purely political passions deprive you of some spectacular imbibing.

American arrogance? Seems to me the French are the ones hoisted on their own pitard.

Politics shouldn't enter into what we call our sparkiing wine though it should play a role in whether or not we purchase French sparkling wines. For all we've done protecting their freedom over the last 100 years, yeah the French can put it where the sun doesn't shine. It seems to me to be quite a double standard to be ethical about purchasing food or other items based on ecology or some other moral lines yet saying we'll still buy French wine because we like the way it tastes. Ufortunately I've given in to weaknesses and still purchased some Frecnh wine. From a moral standpoint I shouldn't buy it. From an I want to drink it standpoint I occasionally give in.

When I first started this thread, I did so because something was irking me about calling, or feeling a need to be (in terms of some of the wine community) politically correct in calling California (or any other Domestic) sparkiling wines by some other name than champagne. After seeing the responses here I am convinced of two things. One is that it is wrong for us to label Californai wines as champagne, and secondly that it is 100% fine to refer to them as champagne.

In terms of labeling give them their due and appease them and don't label it champagne.

As to calling it champagne? That is what (I believe) it is in the minds of most Americans. Is it a ripoff? Or trying to capitalize on the name? BS! If voyeurism is the homage that virtue pays to vice, then so to is our calling a glass of bubbly champagne the homage that we pay to Dom Perignon and the French for their creation of this type of wine. Words take on new meaning over time. Look at the phrase "The gay nineties" and apply it to 1890 and 1990 and the perception/meaning will come acrfoss entirely different.

[cdh]

This issue has been acrimoniously disputed here months ago. There is no coming to any resolution, and the acrimony will only increase. It will inevitably get personal, as failure to agree with one side or the other is a clear moral failing to some.

Proceeding further is unwise.

The old fight.

Edited August 8, 2004 by cdh (log)

[CtznCane]

Thanks for the old link. In looking at that old link I liked what you said.

"As a thumbnail sketch of an analysis of the mark "champagne", I'd venture to say that it suffered genericide a long time ago. "Genericide" is trademark lawyer slang for a mark having fallen into generic usage and lost all capacity to identify a specific producer. Like kleenex, or xerox (despite their attempts to head that off), and (maybe) tivo."

Dead on for the most part, though I believe people still recognize the brand name as well. (Same thing could be said of Coke and cola.). Xerox is synonymous with making a copy, and kleenex is, well kleenex, I can't even think of calling it by another name, and for the same reason I usually by it by brand name as well.

In the same way, I for one would think that from a business and economic standpoint that the fact we call it (right or wrong) champagne in a generic way probably leads to more purchases of French Champagne. In terms of sales from a purely psychological standpoint, if one is looking for a bottle of champagne (thinking domestic) they've opened themselves to buying a bottle of Champagne from France. If we think of sending something over night somewhere it is almost generic to say FedEx it. Could we use or even be thinking about another means such as DHL or Air UPS? Sure, but just that seed of the name might lead one to use FedEx. In some ways it fits that old creed of no such thing as bad advertising. Name recognition. It is not what we label it, it is what we call it.

[Craig Camp]

The operative question here may not be if it is right for American producers of fine American sparking wines to use the name champagne on their labels, but why in the world they would want to? American "champagne" has the worst of reputations.

Is seems the best producers understand this and almost none use that pirated designation on their labels anymore. How about a quick survey. Who of the serious American sparking wine producers (champagne method only please) still use the word champagne on their labels?

...and we are not here to discuss French/American politics, but the right to use geographical designations of other countries on wines not from those zones. Further forays into that area will result in a locked thread or deleted posts.

[Craig Camp]

Opportunism? You think those in California can't or don't recognize the difference? If it is opportunism in terms of taking advantage of peoples ignorance it seems that would be directed more at areas like the Midwest perhaps.

Careful here, both of your forum hosts are mid-Westerners

[Big Bunny]

In my opinion when California wineries label their product as Champagne or anything else that it isn't, they are just denigrating what they produce. If their product isn't good enough to stand alone on its own identity, then the message they are sending is just that. "what we are selling is inferior, so we are calling it by the name of something which it is not".

Porkpa

This is the major issue.

Misleading labelling is a hangover from a time when California was timid about the value of her wines. Obviously, that is no longer true.

Wouldn't it be ironic if someone outside the U.S. called their wines "Napa" to give them more "class?"

BB

[Carolyn Tillie]

Wouldn't it be ironic if someone outside the U.S. called their wines "Napa" to give them more "class?"

The irony is that you mention this -- someone outside Napa (just the appellation itself, not the country) tried to use the Napa name and herein lies the result of THAT lawsuit!

[ctgm]

The French champagne growers view on the matter is that it is necessary that champagne only comes from the Champagne region in order to protect the consumer. It is of course not to protect their considerable profit margins!! The consumer obviously needs protecting on this expensive product in case they buy something masquarading as champagne but is actually from USA/Oz/NZ that is (of course) cheaper and not as good (subjectively).

To a certain extent I have sympathy with the Champenois in as much as they have spent a lot of money over the years promoting their wines. Why should they let someone else from another country cash in on this? However I do agree with the rather patronising view that the consumer needs protecting from "imposters". I quite often use the analogy of cheddar cheese (which comes from around Somerset, UK). Most cheddar is labelled with the country of origin and has nothing at all to do with the "original". Being British, I try and buy as much British produce as I can and therefore never buy cheddar from Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand...... Therefore I am sure that fizzy wine buyers could be more than capable of making a similar choice.

This weekend I had some Hardy's Nottage HIll Chardonnay (fizzy). Hardy's is not a producer I like but I have to admit that this fizz was very good value for money and I can see why the Champenois are worried. Having said that we did have a Veuve Cliquot afterwards and there was a huge difference but at 3.5 times the price, so there should have been