Who do you think are the 4 stars in NY

[jeunefilleparis]

My meal at Le Bernadin 2 years ago was so awful and someone would have to be paying for my meal to make me go back. I think that I posted about this way back when, but I ended up sending 2 courses back. We waited 15 min when we first arrived to be told specials or be welcomed by our waiter. My lobster was so dry that even the butter did not help

When my guest and I complained to the manager, we were given free dessert, but that was it. I dont know if it was because we were 23yr olds in a place full of mainly white haired people, or what, but it was disgraceful.

Both my friend and I were appropriately dressed and love and know great food, which is why we went there. Everyone else seems to have such great experiences there, so i dont know if it was just one bad dinner or what,,,,,,,,,,,

[rich]

My meal at Le Bernadin 2 years ago was so awful and someone would have to be paying for my meal to make me go back. I think that I posted about this way back when, but I ended up sending 2 courses back. We waited 15 min when we first arrived to be told specials or be welcomed by our waiter. My lobster was so dry that even the butter did not help

When my guest and I complained to the manager, we were given free dessert, but that was it. I dont know if it was because we were 23yr olds in a place full of mainly white haired people, or what, but it was disgraceful.

Both my friend and I were appropriately dressed and love and know great food, which is why we went there. Everyone else seems to have such great experiences there, so i dont know if it was just one bad dinner or what,,,,,,,,,,,

I've actually had two poor experiences the only times I've been there.

[docsconz]

It has been a few years since I've been to Le Bernardins, which is why I qualified it above. when I was there on two occassions it was outstanding both times. I have read and heard a number of unflattering comments recently, however, which have diminished my desire to return, especially with other worthy candidates to dine at.

[docsconz]

I think Le bernardins set the bar for seafood cookery in NYC in the early 90's. Since that time, the overall quality of high-end seafood in the city has risen dramatically. I also understand, though this may be mistaken, that the table layout is now denser than it used to be.

[jeunefilleparis]

Well, I dont know if I should feel better that other people have had bad meals there, but at last I dont feel insane that I dont know good food:)

[Brad Trent]

Back to the Tasting Room for a sec...

I just spoke with Rene and she says the apparent confusion about them leaving started when the Times reported that one of their cooks had left for 71 Clinton...Rene and Colin are still at the Tasting Room with Colin in the kitchen 5 nights a week!

BeeT's

PS: And as to whether it's a 4-star place or not...c'mon, I love the place but I'd say it's solid 3-star food in 2-star (OK...1.75) surroundings!

[tommy]

thanks for clearing that up, brad t. that's good news.

and yes, if the Tasting Room could be awarded "4 stars", then i'd have no idea whatsoever what "4 stars" meant. at least now i have some sort of reference.

Edited June 17, 2004 by tommy (log)

[jeunefilleparis]

Back to the Tasting Room for a sec...

I just spoke with Rene and she says the apparent confusion about them leaving started when the Times reported that one of their cooks had left for 71 Clinton...Rene and Colin are still at the Tasting Room with Colin in the kitchen 5 nights a week!

BeeT's

PS: And as to whether it's a 4-star place or not...c'mon, I love the place but I'd say it's solid 3-star food in 2-star (OK...1.75) surroundings!

I would agree with Brad. I had a nice meal there last spring, but it wasnt 4 star fodd and though cute and cozy, its no Danube or J-G in atmosphere!

Brad are you back again:)

[xyz123]

Fine and good, but a substantive response would be more instructive. Please tell us your opinion and why you disagree with the opinions expressed here (or the nature of their expression or whatever).

We are talking about 4 star restaurants in NYC, the cream of the crop. Not 4 star

Restaurants in Boise Idaho. A 4 star restaurant is about an overall dining experience. Food, wine, service, ambiance all have to be in the top tier. Since NYC is considered the second best restaurant city in the world, therefore we are talking about some on the best restaurants in the world. With the exception of Danube none of the restaurants that any of you have mentioned are remotely close to being 4 stars

[Fat Guy]

I think it's important to distinguish between favorite and best. The Tasting Room is one of my favorite restaurants. On any given night, even given infinite financial resources, I might choose it over any of the four-stars. But that doesn't make it a four-star restaurant or even one of the best restaurants in New York. It happens to be a very special, loveable place with terrific food -- and who doesn't have a crush on both Renee and Colin? But four stars? I just can't see the argument.

[Suzanne F]

Has no one else eaten at Bayard's ????? Get your butts over there ASAP -- especially during the time when Satur Farms' produce is at its peak.

I'm a little ambivalent about whether or not it rates four stars, mostly because the setting is a little, well, Great Neck in the 1960s. Or maybe Detroit in the 1970s. That is, sort of ageless but slightly tatty Americana (floral rugs, ship models). And the service suffers a bit from lack of English skills on the part of the staff. But, my god! it's Eberhard Mueller, using produce from his and his wife's farm!

I'm really serious about this, guys: you have GOT to get down here and try the place.

As for the others:

1. I worked at LeB, I will always love it, I must recuse myself.

2. Chanterelle is my favorite restaurant in NYC, except maybe for NY Noodletown.

3. Haven't eaten at Nobu in about 10 years.

4. Loved, loved, LOVED the food at Jean George. But HATED the room -- one of the most lacking in character anywhere, and having that monstrosity Time-Warner looming over, outside. Can you lose a star for what's outside your windows?

5. Did not enjoy the original Bouley; love the bakery, have not been to the new Bouley.

6. Thought that ADNY did not live up to its billing: highly uneven food, and the ugliest damn room I've ever been in, bar none. How dare they wreck a bunch of instruments and say it's art? Not to mention the silliness of having sculpture on the table; all I want on my table is my food and wine.

[SethG]

We are talking about 4 star restaurants in NYC, the cream of the crop. Not 4 star

Restaurants in Boise Idaho. A 4 star restaurant is about an overall dining experience. Food, wine, service, ambiance all have to be in the top tier. Since NYC is considered the second best restaurant city in the world, therefore we are talking about some on the best restaurants in the world. With the exception of Danube none of the restaurants that any of you have mentioned are remotely close to being 4 stars

You're hardly the first person on this thread to make this point about the "overall experience." It seems to be a pretty strong consensus among the posters here.

None of the mentioned restaurants except Danube come remotely close to four stars.... wha? Come again?

NYC is second best to.... Paris? Tokyo? Boise?

Edited June 18, 2004 by SethG (log)

[kurl]

To me the most disappointing restaurant mentioned on this thread is Nobu. I thought the decor unremarkable, the service so-so and the food ($100 omikase) only mediocre. I had high hopes for it, but do not feel any urge to return. 4*'s? Not in my book. Not even close.

I've been to Nobu three or five times, and I kinda agree with you.

I have rarely had good service there -- they screw up even the basics (refilling water, etc.) disturbingly often -- and the decor seems a notch below all of the four-star restaurants that I've seen. The food has brilliant moments, but there's a surprising number of clunkers on a menu that's way past the age when you'd expect it to be at least a bit consistent. I still go back -- some of the food there is (to me, at leat) clearly fantastic.

[Pan]

Fine and good, but a substantive response would be more instructive. Please tell us your opinion and why you disagree with the opinions expressed here (or the nature of their expression or whatever).

We are talking about 4 star restaurants in NYC, the cream of the crop. Not 4 star

Restaurants in Boise Idaho. A 4 star restaurant is about an overall dining experience. Food, wine, service, ambiance all have to be in the top tier. Since NYC is considered the second best restaurant city in the world, therefore we are talking about some on the best restaurants in the world. With the exception of Danube none of the restaurants that any of you have mentioned are remotely close to being 4 stars

Including or excluding the ones the New York Times rated as 4-stars?

[oakapple]

With the exception of Danube none of the restaurants that any of you have mentioned are remotely close to being 4 stars.

As the stars represent points on a continuum, it follows that some restaurants — we can argue about which ones — are almost, but not quite, four stars.

You suggested Danube. I would add Chanterelle and Atelier (the caveat being, in the latter case, that it will soon be under a new chef). It would not seriously disrupt the galaxy of settled notions if any of these received a fourth star, although clearly not all of them will. We can also presume that Masa is in this category (cuz Amanda told us so ).

But I agree with xyz123 that some of the suggestions here are extremely bizarre, and under no circumstances could ever be four stars. Perhaps the writers mean, "Damn the system, these are just places I like." I totally agree with Fat Guy that there's a huge difference between "best" and "favorite."

Edited June 18, 2004 by oakapple (log)

[AES]

None of the mentioned restaurants except Danube come remotely close to four stars.... wha? Come again?

NYC is second best to.... Paris? Tokyo? Boise?

Yes, xyz123, inquiring minds want to know... what DO you think are the 4 star restaurants in NYC? Especially in light of the fact that I can't even come up with any restaurants in NYC that are considered better than Daniel, ADNY, Per Se...

[rich]

One person's food is another's fodder.

I'll use my list of six restaurants (I don't think it's fair to use another person's choices) to make my point. Of the six, I'll assume no one has a problem with Per Se and ADNY (except the post that said no restaurant except Danube is worthy of four stars). Chanterelle, Nobu and Aquavit are currently three stars under the NY Times and any of them could be elevated, though there seems to be some dissatisfaction with each among the posters.

The Tasting Room, as I said earlier, was my most difficult and controversial choice. While I realize the ambience doesn't come close to what the NY Times considers four stars, I qualified that by saying I don't give as much weight to that area as I do food and consistency. So leave that as my wild card - I just think the food is so good, it rises above the lack of ambience.

Let's look at the other NY Times four stars. I have not been to the current Bouley, but from reading the posts, there is a substantial amount of criticism concerning this place. Same is true with Le Bernadin and JG (where I haven't been). I have been to Daniel once and had a terrible experience - I won't go back even if someone else was paying.

Bottom line, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on any of the four stars. Each has received some criticism based on individual experience. To criticize an experiened diner's list of four stars because its bizzare or silly is a bit disingenuous. Everyone formulates their opinions based on personal experience. In looking at the lists that were posted, I can see the point of view for each case.

What I find fascinating is the most critical people have just been that and not posted their choices. Criticism is easy, offering an meaningful alternative takes some intelligence and decency.

Edited June 18, 2004 by rich (log)

[R Washburn]

What is with all of the Daniel bashing? The only possible reason I could see NOT giving Daniel four stars is that they turn the tables, in which case our list would be three restaurants at best (ADNY, Per Se, and Masa).

My Four Stars:

ADNY

Per Se

Daniel

Le Bernardin

Jeans-Georges

Masa (based on reviews).

[tommy]

Criticism is easy, offering an meaningful alternative takes some intelligence and decency.

it takes intelligence and decency to list a bunch of favorite restaurants? by god, everyone on egullet is intelligent and decent!

half of the discussion is offering opinions on what might be 4 star restaurants. another part of the discussion is wondering why someone suggested those restaurants.

[rich]

another part of the discussion is wondering why someone suggested those restaurants.

Wondering why is a lot different than using terms such as bizarre and/or silly - that's disingenous

Edited June 18, 2004 by rich (log)

[GordonCooks]

4 stars serving 4 star food

ADNY

Daniel

Jean Georges

Le Bernadin

Per Se

4 stars serving 3 star food

Bouley

Masa

3 Stars serving 4 star food

Babbo

Danube?

Craft

Underated

Blue Hill – 2 stars

[oakapple]

another part of the discussion is wondering why someone suggested those restaurants.

Wondering why is a lot different than using terms such as bizarre and/or silly - that's disingenous

Since I called some of the suggestions "bizarre," I'll elaborate further.

The glorious thing about the Internet is that anyone can offer an opinion, with as much or as little justification as the writer chooses to offer. That opinion can be extremely well thought-out, or ridiculously off-the-wall. Whatever it may be, we all get to post. Whether we are taken seriously is another matter entirely.

People who want to be taken seriously have a knack of recognizing how much justification a particular opinion calls for. If you put Jean-Georges or ADNY on your list of four-star restaurants, it doesn't require a whole lot of explaining, because the merits of these places have long been recognized. Anyone with the slightest bit of initiative can easily find long essays on these restaurants, explaining why they are widely regarded so highly. You can write a new essay of your own, but if you don't, we'll assume you're agreeing with an existing consensus.

If you put Aquavit, Chanterelle, or Danube on your list of four-stars, a brief explanation will suffice. These restaurants are carrying three stars today. Everyone recognizes that the borderline between three and four stars is a matter of judgment, and some of the three-star restaurants could well have been four if another critic had been doing the judging. Some of them haven't been reviewed for a few years, and they may well have improved since then. It's not a shocking suggestion that some of the three-stars in fact deserve four.

But when you put restaurants on your list that are currently carrying one star — places like Grocery, Landmarc, Henry's End, Tasting Room — places that no published critic has ever rated anywhere near the Jean-Georges, Daniel, Per Se stratosphere — a whole lotta explainin' is needed if you want people to take these suggestions seriously. Of course, the beauty of the Internet is that many people post here who could care less whether they are taken seriously. Then again, such people shouldn't object when their ideas are ridiculed as "bizarre."

Edited June 18, 2004 by oakapple (log)

[Suzanne F]

One person's food is another's fodder.

. . . Of the six, I'll assume no one has a problem with Per Se and ADNY (except the post that said no restaurant except Danube is worthy of four stars).

Didn't I say I have a problem with ADNY?

The room is distractingly overdone. The food is not ALL ethereally wonderful: The French, they should not attempt pasta.

To me, 4 stars means perfect in every possible way. ADNY is not. Which is why I am more upset at its consideration than, say, that of Jean Georges, where at least the food WAS perfect, and pretty much only the scene outside the window (not controllable by JGV) was detrimental to the experience.

[rich]

But when you put restaurants on your list that are currently carrying one star — places like Grocery, Landmarc, Henry's End, Tasting Room

Please read my first post again and you will see the only one of these listed as four stars was the Tasting Room, which I have explained several times. The other three were listed below that category for the reasons offered.

Nevertheless I'll explain once more. Grocery and Henry's End do serve four star food (on a consistent basis in my opinion), but totally lack the minimal ambience to be considered in that category (even for me who doesn't place a major emphasis on ambience, but does look at the wine offerings as a large piece of the puzzle.)

As far as Landmarc - that was on my "to watch" list as an up and coming restaurant. Whether it will continue to grow and improve - only time will tell. The ambience there is fine for me and their wine list is special.

[rich]

One person's food is another's fodder.

. . . Of the six, I'll assume no one has a problem with Per Se and ADNY (except the post that said no restaurant except Danube is worthy of four stars).

Didn't I say I have a problem with ADNY?

The room is distractingly overdone. The food is not ALL ethereally wonderful: The French, they should not attempt pasta.

To me, 4 stars means perfect in every possible way. ADNY is not. Which is why I am more upset at its consideration than, say, that of Jean Georges, where at least the food WAS perfect, and pretty much only the scene outside the window (not controllable by JGV) was detrimental to the experience.

Sorry Suzanne, you did say that. But it strengthens my point that opinions of experienced diners, though different, are valid. I thought ADNY was terrific, but I understand and respect your conclusion.

So now, I believe every NY Times four-star restaurant has at least one member who doesn't believe it belongs.