Blue Laws in New York

[Ruby]

Why do some of these laws still exist?

Liquor stores on closed on Sundays and you can't buy beer in a market or have an alcoholic drink in a restaurant or bar before noon.

You can't dance in an establishment that has music unless it has a cabaret license.

Until recently, you couldn't get a haircut or your nails done on Sunday. I guess this blue law isn't enforced anymore. I mean if you want to look nice for church, wouldn't you want to get your hair styled beforehand??

I tried to find out about more about these blue laws and surprisingly couldn't locate that much on the net. It seems these blue laws were started in New Haven, Connecticut with the Puritans and some of them are still enforced in New York.

Are there any other blue laws you know about? How can we get rid of some of the real archaic ones?

[tommy]

NJ has lots of good ol' fashioned blue laws started by the god fearin' folk years ago.  as do most states along the eastern seaboard i'd imagine.  in south carolina, practically *nothing* is open before noon on sunday.  god, apparently, doesn't want you to shop before church.  

i can deal with the shopping laws to some extent, but those darned liquor laws really get me all bent outta shape.  makes my turn my back to the church really.  no, really it does.

[Fat Guy]

It's not just the blue laws. The entire regulatory scheme surrounding beer, wine, and spirits is ludicrous and overreaching and should be viewed as unacceptable by any freedom-loving American. The blue laws are particularly offensive because they are so transparently nothing more than an enforcement of religious beliefs by political means, but then again so are most of the misguided liquor laws in the United States. Other than regulation of underage drinking (don't get me started, though, on how you can fight and die for your country but not buy a beer), the law has no business telling people what they can and cannot do with alcohol.

[Liza]

Luckily for NYCers, there's Vintage NY, which is allowed to sell NY State wine on Sunday. (and every other day of the week, too, just to be completely clear).

[tommy]

(don't get me started, though, on how you can fight and die for your country but not buy a beer)

mojo nixon sang something to that affect a while back in his song "burn down the malls"...went a little like this:

you know if Reagan finally gets the war he's lookin for,

you think he's gonna be draftin' 21 year olds?

No man they're gonna be draftin' 18 and 19 year olds

but ya cant buy beer

you can get married and screw yourself up real good

but ya can't buy beer

ya can charge 8 million dollars on the mastercharge

but ya can't buy beer

you can vote for one fool or another

but ya can't buy beer

'cause this is America

America that's run by the lowest common denominator

the money

all though i'm not a big fan of government getting in my face, especially when it's got religion behind it, i don't feel that alcohol, teenagers, and cars don't mix.  maybe you should get a choice when you're 18: you can drive, or you can buy beer.

then again, i'm pretty sure than any teenager who wants beer gets it.  you just can't find weed anymore damnit!

[Rail Paul]

In Bergen County, NJ, most other than food stores are required by law to be closed on Sunday. Paramus has a municipal law which is more restrictive, and designed to survive an overturn of the county law. It's the only day of the week the roads are other than completely jammed.

Stern's Department store was required to close its Paramus computer facility on Sunday, but Becton Dickinson could operate its facility. (BD handled blood transfers for emergency centers on its server.)

Utah was even more restrictve toward alcohol. Until 1989, each restaurant with a liquor license had a little booth where miniature bottles of alcohol were sold (cash only, no credit cards) max two at a time. You had to walk over (servers couldn't handle hooch) to make your purchase.

[tommy]

and plenty of bergen business owners are pushing to overturn what they call out outdated law.  one would have to imagine that some parts of bergen county would be unliveable if they overturn the law.  however, it would make it a lot more convinient to shop.

[Peter B Wolf]

Don't remember if these are still enforced, but in Massachusetts one could not sit nor stand at a bar on Sundays. So the bars all put narrow tables in front of bars so people could sit at "tables". Also, women were not allowed to sit at bars, ever, but they could stand at bars. This really put the macho on a guy, he sat on a bar stool and his female companion had to stand next to him and drink. (Well that was in the Sixties.)

[jhlurie]

Ruby, Rail Paul mostly said it for me.  It's a good thing you don't live in Bergen County if the New York laws bother you.

Blue law story (non-food/alcohol related) observed first hand:

When Target first moved into the area they built a big old store down in Edgewater, NJ--BARELY inside Bergen County in fact, since the county border is right there.

I was one of a few thousand people who went down there on opening day--in my case because I live about a half mile away.  Target had apparently NOT done their research though... because opening day was on a Sunday.  

Well the County Sheriff shows up and forces them to close the store... and it became the first and ONLY Target store in the entire USA not open 7 days a week (until about six months ago when a second Bergen County Target store opened up in Hackensack).

Big expensive ads were placed in the Bergen Record celebrating the Sunday opening, people were hired and shifts planned around seven-day schedules, signs were printed up and posted saying "Open 7 days a Week!", and profit figures were no doubt calculated against that standard seven day retail week.  It would almost have been funny if it wasn't so sad.

Alcohol... yeah... Alcohol sold in Grocery stores is really funny, because they roll these metal shutters down to block the aisle on those days.  In fact, one supermarket employee told me that they aren't supposed to sell batteries either, but most stores ignore that rule.

[Mao]

Bitch. Moan.  Just thank your lucky stars you don't reside in CT or PA.  In PA one has to buy liquor in State stores, which can carry severely limited selections of many wines.  In CT, every liquor store closes at 8 pm on weekdays and isn't open Sunday. In certain areas of NJ (Princeton) liquor licences can cost 250-300k for a restaurant, because of artifically curtailed supply.  That's not to say that all the laws aren't absurd, but NYC seems to me among the most liberal and least impacted areas by archaic and puritancial legislation of centuries past.

[tommy]

I was one of a few thousand people who went down there on opening day--in my case because I live about a half mile away.  Target had apparently NOT done their research though... because opening day was on a Sunday.  

first off, that's pretty lame that you would run to target on opening day .

second, i remember that story.  from what i heard, there was near rioting, and windows were broken.  true?

[tommy]

Bitch. Moan.  Just thank your lucky stars you don't reside in CT or PA.  In PA one has to buy liquor in State stores, which can carry severely limited selections of many wines.  In CT, every liquor store closes at 8 pm on weekdays and isn't open Sunday. In certain areas of NJ (Princeton) liquor licences can cost 250-300k for a restaurant, because of artifically curtailed supply.  That's not to say that all the laws aren't absurd, but NYC seems to me among the most liberal and least impacted areas by archaic and puritancial legislation of centuries past.

mao, isn't in true that in PA you can't buy more than 12 bottles of beer at once?  at least i recall this being the case in college park when visiting penn state friends in the early 90's.  you had to buy 2 sixpacks, bring them outside, and then go buy 2 more.  ahhh, what a pleasure that was.

i often wonder where people who live in NYC buy beer.  surely you don't by them at the corner bodegas (sp?) at 12 dollars a six pack.  in NJ, all liquor is sold at one kind of store (ummm, a liquor store).  these stores are generally open from noon (or earlier) and close at 10, 'cept for sunday , when they open at noon and close at 8.  not too bad overall.

[Justin Burk]

It's not just the blue laws. The entire regulatory scheme surrounding beer, wine, and spirits is ludicrous and overreaching and should be viewed as unacceptable by any freedom-loving American. The blue laws are particularly offensive because they are so transparently nothing more than an enforcement of religious beliefs by political means, but then again so are most of the misguided liquor laws in the United States. Other than regulation of underage drinking (don't get me started, though, on how you can fight and die for your country but not buy a beer), the law has no business telling people what they can and cannot do with alcohol.

(don't get me started, though, on how you can fight and die for your country but not buy a beer)

Actually, the law used to be that active duty military personnel could purchase alcohol on military bases.  In the early-mid 80s, MADD lobbied to have that amended so that the relevant state drinking laws would be in effect:  TITLE 10 , Subtitle A , PART IV , CHAPTER 159 , Sec. 2683.

So, your concerns have been addressed in the past, but I guess the feeling was that the lives that would be presumably saved by further curtailing "underaged" drinking outweighed the moral "rightness" of being old enough to drink if you're old enough to die for your country.

[Bux]

The blue laws are particularly offensive because they are so transparently nothing more than an enforcement of religious beliefs by political means, but then again so are most of the misguided liquor laws in the United States.

Liquor laws in NY State are mostly guided by the distributor's lobby. Keeping alcohol out of the hands of minors is often the red herring used to lobby against delivery of wine from outside the state by consumers.

[tommy]

So, your concerns have been addressed in the past, but I guess the feeling was that the lives that would be presumably saved by further curtailing "underaged" drinking outweighed the moral "rightness" of being old enough to drink if you're old enough to die for your country.

even the libertarian side of me agrees with this 100%.

although the laws are probably inconvenient for most of us, we can certainly get our juice whenever we need it for the most part.  

i suppose this could be another thread.  albeit one filled with political, religious, and moral views, but an interesting on nonetheless.

[thereuare]

Just some random thoughts this post inspired:

Growing up in NJ I thought the term "liquor store" was ubiquitous, however, during my college days in Michigan i learned that in Michigan these stores are more appropriately called "Party Stores." (it's true)

Michigan also has "beer vaults" which are essentially drive thru beer stores.  You drive in, roll down your window, pop the trunk, have a case of beer thrown in, and off you go!  Kind of hard to use a fake id here though, claiming you don't drive.

Also in Michigan you can drive on the highway for miles, seeing nothing in site, until finally passing a gas station for those low on fuel.  However, inevitably there is a liquor store (uhhm, i mean party store) next to the gas station!  We would joke about how there are no homes within a 25 mile radius of this gas station, and there is a party store right next door, simply for those who feel they can't take a long car ride without imbibing some liquor to pass the time.  TOTALLY rediculous.

[Bux]

The hypocrisy of the argument that the 21 year old restriction on purchasing and consuming alcoholic beverages is directed at eliminating or minimizing drunk driving is underscored by the lack of seriousness with which we treat adult drunk driving.

[tommy]

adults have more experience driving (not to mention drinking).  

not to defend or even debate the very valid point that you bring up, but i'm pretty sure that i can have a six pack of beer and drive home with next to no impairment.  however, a 17 year old 150 lb kid buying a six pack one night to celebrate getting his driver's license would most likely have different results.  prorate this behavior over 3 years and i'd think the risk for the 17 year increases exponentially, whereas my risk remains minimal.

[Jinmyo]

Excuse me. Sorry for butting in. Um. Why are they called blue laws?

[tommy]

blue because back in the 1600's when they were first framed, they were printed on blue paper.  or something like that.  Click here for an example.