Eating meat is a sin

[Mudpuppie]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g...urbananimal.DTL

SF Chronicle interview with the head of the Catholic Vegetarian Society and the Christian Vegetarian Society. Also the director of vegan campaigns for Peta.

I think, but am not positive, that a sensible and rational discussion could be had about this.

Won't quote, because any quote pulled out of context would probably be incendiary.

[FistFullaRoux]

Matthew chapter 14 - Loaves and fishes story - Jesus feeds meat (well, fish - still flesh) to his followers.

Genesis chapter 9 - "Every living thing is food for us" (King James quote)

In Exodus - God required every family to kill and eat a lamb for Passover

Leviticus 11 - The rules for eating meat are spelled out. Rabbits, camels, and pigs were considerd unclean. As were things that live in the water, but lack fins or scales. But it also spelled out which ones were permitted.

Shall I continue? I'm straining my Catholic databanks here...

[FistFullaRoux]

I should mention that this was one of the things I had to research and debate on at a retreat in high school. I remember most of it, but I'm having to look up the quotes...

Almost forgot a favorite. Timothy 4 - Specifically says, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Short version: People will come along and tell you not to eat certain things. If God gives it to you and asks you to eat it and be thankful, you should eat it and be thankful. If you refuse to, and try to teach others to do the same, you have sinned yourself. Also, many think that this passage allows people to eat "unclean food" if there is no other option, and starvation is imminent.

[John]

Also, in the King James Version in Luke 8:55, Jesus healed a sick girl and commanded the people there to give her meat to eat.

[John]

If God didn't want us eating animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

[Chris Cognac]

If God didn't want us eating animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat.

And he wouldnt have made them taste so darn good!

[Moopheus]

For comparison, there's this from the Buddhist Anguttara-Nikaya sutra:

"What is right action? That someone avoids the killing of living beings, and abstains from it. Without stick or sword, conscientious, full of sympathy, he is anxious for the welfare of all living beings." (In much Buddhist literature, the phrases "living being" and "sentient being" are used more or less interchangeably.) There are also specific injunctions against being a butcher and accepting meat (for monks). There's no notion that the world was create entirely for our benefit.

[tommy]

between, well, nevermind. but my religion really really sucks.

Edited February 4, 2004 by tommy (log)

[FistFullaRoux]

For comparison, there's this from the Buddhist Anguttara-Nikaya sutra:

"What is right action? That someone avoids the killing of living beings, and abstains from it. Without stick or sword, conscientious, full of sympathy, he is anxious for the welfare of all living beings." (In much Buddhist literature, the phrases "living being" and "sentient being" are used more or less interchangeably.) There are also specific injunctions against being a butcher and accepting meat (for monks). There's no notion that the world was create entirely for our benefit.

But the context of the topic is Christian and Catholic. I'm not personally stating, for the record, that all religions or spiritualities on this earth subscribe to these same ideas.

I do think that the parameters need to be established before someone throws the Jedi code in here somewhere. This is not, I repeat again, to belittle or discount any religious/spiritual/agnostic feelings anyone may have. Once again the quotes from the article as the topic are regarding Christian and Catholic teachings. And the two may be mutually exclusive.

[Moopheus]

Well, the interviewer did ask if he'd thought about becoming a Buddhist or Hindu.

[FistFullaRoux]

Well, the interviewer did ask if he'd thought about becoming a Buddhist or Hindu.

Point taken.

I'd say it's Mudpuppie's call, since she was the one who started the thread. It's only fair, I think....

[John]

For comparison, there's this from the Buddhist Anguttara-Nikaya sutra:

"What is right action? That someone avoids the killing of living beings, and abstains from it. Without stick or sword, conscientious, full of sympathy, he is anxious for the welfare of all living beings." (In much Buddhist literature, the phrases "living being" and "sentient being" are used more or less interchangeably.) There are also specific injunctions against being a butcher and accepting meat (for monks). There's no notion that the world was create entirely for our benefit.

Anxious for the welfare of all living beings? Including gnats, rats, cockroaches? Sorry, I'll trust the Lord who gave us dominion over the earth and the animal population. Maybe if more people in third world countries would eat meat from animals, there would be less problems with people going hungry.

[Mudpuppie]

between, well, nevermind. but my religion really really sucks.

second thoughts about the funny bits?

[tommy]

between, well, nevermind.  but my religion really really sucks.   

second thoughts about the funny bits?

child molestation is so, like, *last* year's joke.

Edited February 4, 2004 by tommy (log)

[reesek]

he says even "the lion will lie down with the lamb," and somehow defines this to mean that carnivores will also be vegetarians...that seems like kind of leap to me...sounds a lot more like it implies freedom than restriction but then - i've never really gotten the religious part of religion. and i have a dirty mind.

[Mudpuppie]

Well, the interviewer did ask if he'd thought about becoming a Buddhist or Hindu.

Point taken.

I'd say it's Mudpuppie's call, since she was the one who started the thread. It's only fair, I think....

Ooh, I love it when people defer.

If the question is "can Buddhism come into the discussion," sure.

If that's not the question, I don't really know what is.

I'm glad there's discussion happening. I don't at this point feel like I have anything to add. I will state my own personal position:

I'm a vegetarian. It's right for me, but I don't claim that it's right for anyone else. This makes me unpopular among vegans.

I'm comfortably agnostic. That's right for me too, but it's not right for everybody. This makes me unpopular among religious folk and atheists. (Who, in my opinion, have quite a few things in common.)

I personally feel that anyone who says "Nobody should ever do XYZ" is out of line.

Most of the time.

I mean, you could say "Nobody should ever attack [women, gays, children, animals]," and I'd cheer you on. But "nobody should eat meat"? There's a very gray area between those two statements -- a philosophical missing link. I don't know when it's okay to prohibit and when it's okay to be libertarian.

I thought that getting y'all to argue might clear it up for me.

So continue. No holds barred. No need to defer.

[Edit: Sorry, forgot one important part of my platform. I think omnivores should be more conscientious about where their meat comes from and how it's treated on the hoof or trotter. I think vegetarians AND omnivores should be conscientious about where their carrots come from and how the farmworkers are treated. Unfortunately, such conscientiousness is not always economically feasible, and it takes a lot of energy. This is, for me, part of the above-mentioned philosophical missing link.

Oh, and my manifesto is only half finished.]

Edited February 4, 2004 by Mudpuppie (log)

[Moopheus]

Anxious for the welfare of all living beings? Including gnats, rats, cockroaches?

Theoretically, at least, yes. In practice, of course, we are not all perfected.

[markovitch]

yo mudpuppie, i think this might be your missing link

Regardless of which religion/ethos/ belief system you examine what you should or should not do with the world around you comes down to entitlement. If, like John has stated above, we humans have 'dominion' over the earth, than the logical conclusion is that we should dominate as we please.

I have a tough time buying that, since a human is retelling the story of creation and it just so happens we are at the top of the tower. It reminds me of Plato's Republic, in which (i am sure most of you have read it at some point) after much rumination, Plato, a philosopher, decides that the best person to have dominion over a rebublic would be... gasp... a philosopher king!

The question of Dominion seems crucial to a lot of religious issues, not just meat. What about women's rights, the family structure, government (or institutions of any tye for that matter)? Christianity is the only Religion of which I can claim any modicum of expertise, so i will stay away from the others. But, There is a clear hierarchy of dominion in the christian church; these hierarchies exist on many scales and in many situations. The catholic church, as a whole, is one such hierarchy. The food chain is a hierarchy. The family structure is a hierarchy. In years past certain ethnicities of humans and certain genders were ranked only slightly above some animals. As time passes, these antiquated, sometimes misguided and sometimes dangerous conceptions of hierarchy and their connected notions of dominion dissolve. My question is, is the consumption of animals one of these heirarchies? Will it break down over time? There are numerous vegetarian and a handful of Vegan cultures around the world, so it isn't an issue of viability and survival.

on a related note, why is everything a hierarchy? can't we just take a piece of a pie?

sorry, i hope that does not come off as harsh, but I personally believe that there are a lot of catch-22s and problems with christian dogma.

and, for the record, before Adam and Eve manage to fuck everything up,

genesis 1:29-31

"And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good..."

one might argue that eating meat is a facet of original sin. (i am not opening that can o' whoop-ass)

There is a really interesting book by Carol Adams about the connection between vegetarianism and feminism called "The Sexual politics of Meat." You may like it, you may hate it (i'm somewhere in between, i thought she took a core correlation that seemed solid and stretched it to the point of failure) but it is a scarcely seen perspective on this issue.

for the record, I am of the opinion that I was not put here to make anyone/thing else's life shorter or more difficult. I believe i have dominion over nothing but myself.

Edited February 4, 2004 by markovitch (log)

[KarenS]

John, re: the comment about people in third world countries eating more meat. We could help a lot by not eating grain fed beef (which cows are not supposed to eat anyway). The US wastes a lot of food- we waste so much by fattening cows on grain. Religon is also a persons choice. I certainly don't believe that we have dominion over all living things. Does it become O.K. to eat a cow if a Christian tells a Hindu that it is O.K. ? They think that the Christians are wrong. God judges us when we die. It is not our job to judge others. We share the planet with many species and we are poisoning most of their enviornments.

[John]

Karen,

You stated that you don't believe that we have dominion over all living things. Well, I do, and it's not just because it happens to be my opinion, but because it is stated in the Bible, which I accept as the revealed Word of God. Does it become o.k. to eat a cow if a Christian tells a Hindu that it is o.k.? No, it becomes o.k. when man's creator permits it. If you can accept the idea of a Creator, then it's only logical that he might have a plan for our lives. I believe that it is contained in Scripture. Markovitch, you say that you have a hard time believing that we humans should have dominion over the earth because a human is retelling the story of creation. The story is in the Bible, which claims for itself that everything in scripture is written by men as they were INSPIRED by God. Either you accept this or you don't. And if you do, as I do, then it's not very hard to deduce that 2 contradicting points cannot be true at the same time. Either it's ok to eat meat today, or it's not. And another important thing. Truth is sometimes narrow, and not all inclusive. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father, except through me."

Now I know that there are different religions and belief systems, and we all have a right to our own religion (or lack of). And I respect people's belief's who disagree with me. But if you claim to be a Christian, how can you claim that eating meat is a sin when the founder of your religion advocated it and never called it a sin?

[EllenC]

I think that part of the problem here is in how we define "dominion." If you define dominion as "being able to do whatever I want without consequence or repercussion," that's one thing (IMO one very wrong thing). I think, however, if you take the Bible as a whole, you will realize that that is not the way God defines it. He certainly has dominion over us, and that definition is not how he exercises it. I think that dominion is synonymous with "stewardship." Meaning that we have a level of power and authority, but we also have a commesurate level of responsibility for those things. I think that when the Lord instructed us to love one another as He loves us, he was talking about ALL our areas of authority/responsibility. If we exercise our authority in the same way Christ exercises authority over us, eating or not eating meat becomes a personal choice, but it is done with thanksgiving and respect.

[John]

Well said, Ellen. The Lord also told us that even though he permits certain things, that if doing so (such as eating meat sacrificed to idols) violates one's conscience, he should abstain.

[Moopheus]

I think that dominion is synonymous with "stewardship."

That's the argument of this book. The author is a conservative catholic and a vegetarian, his views are very similar to those expressed Bruce Friedrich. I can only half-heartedly recommend this book, though, with the caveat that I read it as an unedited manuscript and it was in need of a lot of work--there's some good stuff in it, but the author has a hard time building strong logical arguments. Well, he works as a political speechwriter, and logical argument isn't a job requirement.

[Moopheus]

Also, in the King James Version in Luke 8:55, Jesus healed a sick girl and commanded the people there to give her meat to eat.

In King James' day, 'meat' was still commonly used to mean 'food' and not necessarily specifically 'animal meat'. Likely this was even more true for the word being translated.

[PopsicleToze]

From many years of Sunday school growing up, after the flood that destroyed the earth, all dietary restrictions were lifted. People were now free to eat what they wanted. Makes sense, because all vegetables and grains were drowned by the flood.