The Food Safety and Home Kitchen Hygiene/Sanitation Topic

[PurpleDingo99]

I worked at taco bell for two summers. Most of them wore gloves most of the time, but there were food safety violations that would make your toes curl (how about them eating roast chicken from the market using the line and fryalator as tables?) I ate there every day I worked (with several snacks. ) and never got sick once. Not even relatively. And its not that I have a particularly strong immune system (im going through my 2nd cold in two weeks as I type. ) At this point, ive eaten plenty of particularly unsafe things and Im still alive to talk about it. So, ill eat just about anyting that aint served raw off of the meat cutting board.

[Susan G]

I've had fish killed and cleaned on the sidewalks of China and didn't bat an eye..........but put a piece of fish on the scales where god-knows-how-many-other pieces have been, and god knows how long since they've disinfected it? Yup, I'd have walked out too.

I think in this case, even when you *know* that you would be cooking it long enough and hot enough to kill pathogens, this is a case of protective, instinctual nausea. With some things, our guts speak to us to prevent us from getting into trouble.

Just like morning sickness is meant to to keep the maternal body free of toxins that might harm the fetus, revulsion at food practices also protects us.

Me, I won't eat a runny egg if I don't know the farm it came from!

[rooftop1000]

hate gloves gloves are nasty...why would i wash my hands if i am wearing gloves....my hands arent dirty....eat breakfast wash hands take cash wash hands smoke a cigarette wash hands pick something off the floor wash hands.......NJ implementing glove law next month.... may have to move

even in school only the girl with the painted fake nails had to wear gloves...havent worn nail polish in 20 yrs...hell i have no nails

[andiesenji]

I wear gloves for certain tasks.

For one instance, when kneading dough. Invariably the phone rings and either I have to grap the phone with a doughy hand or take the time to clean my hands and by that time the phone stops ringing.

However, when wearing gloves, I just strip one off, toss it in the trash and pick up the phone. Same with tossing stuff in oil, much neater.

I wash my hands often too and I am certainly not squeamish, but after getting a really bad infection in a finger several years ago, from a little hangnail which came in contact with a piece of pork from which I was stripping skin and fat, I learned to be prudent in what I handle with my bare hands. Particularly if I have even a minimal "wound".

That finger was so painful it awakened me at night if I bumped it against something.

Wearing gloves is a small price to pay for safety, MINE!

[Pan]

I know there are probably roaches in many restaurants, but the minute I see one I'm outta there.

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Darcie, you'll probably be unsurprised that there's an eGullet thread about that topic.

[MichaelB]

I am just incredulous when I see the customer ahead of me place his or her MONEY on that scale.

Now that's disgusting -- even if my fish is going to be put on a little square of waxed paper.

[dans]

The woman: "We clean the scale frequently. At least two or three times a day.'

Me: "That's not the point. If one of your fish has a bacteria issue, you are not containing it."

....

The Woman: "It's allowed because they are all fish.  It's not a health code problem is they are all fish and cut up on the same counter."

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Two or three times a day? That is almost three hours between cleanings! Sounds like a really fine place. NOT!

And I guess that "all of the fish is cut on the same counter" with the same attention to cleanliness, sanitation and hygene. I don't think I'm ever going to get food at this place.

You've actually hit on one of my pet peeves. The purveyors of my food have to meet a pretty high standard. I went to a seafood joint the other day and watched as the moron blew his nose then asked if he could help me (no hand washing was done). I told him that he couldn't and walked out the door.

There is a decent supermarket that I usually shop at. It is out of the way but it is clean, well-stocked and has the products that I want to buy. However, I never buy any meats, fish or deli products from the. They have no idea about cross contamination and belive that the gloves they were are to keep thier own hands clean. I once watched as they cut a BLSL chicken breast on a counter that was being used to cut beef (again, not sanitizing was performed).

Dan

[M. Lucia]

Well, first of all I think the woman at the fish counter was very rude. Your request for her to wear gloves was legitimate, and you are the customer.

However, personally, that would nt have bothered me. If you don't want the wild edibles woman touching your fish, I would assume you would never eat at a restaurant in Chinatown (or buy food sold there).

Having traveled throughout the world, and having observed a few restaurant kitchens, you get a different sense of food cleanliness.

I, of course, would not eat in a restaurant I deem to be dirty or unhealthy. A high turnover / that the food has been made fresh is also important to me for quality. However, I would say I have more lax standards. I've eaten all kinds of street food and unusual dishes that others would not touch. And they were great and I've never gotten sick.

I also want my grocery store and the places I dine at to have certain standards. Clean hands and work surfaces are imperative.

Comfort levels are a personal thing, and we also apply different standards to different stores and restaurants.

[Bux]

the authorities assured me that had I cooked the fish thoroughly, the worm would have disappeared from sight and been harmless.  Ugh.

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Worms are very common in many fish. Apparently the ones in saltwater fish are rarely a health problem even if ingested. You all realize there are little things swimming in your drinking water. It's almost amazing that people didn't stop drinking water when Antony van Leeuwenhoek described the organisms he saw swimming around. Perhaps it's that few people had access to a microscope. What we can't actually see bothers us less even after we know about it. The pristine restaurant where we once say a roach is likely not to see us again, while we continue to patronize the dive we have every reason to believe has a dirty kitchen.

I'm always impressed by the counter guys with gloves handling the money and then going back to work with the food. Then there are the guys with one glove. One hand for the food and the other for the money as if you could make a sandwich with one hand.

[ghostrider]

I don't know Wild Edibles. Do they sell only fish? If they sell other foods that get weighed, do they use a dedicated scale for seafood, as do my local grocery stores?

Key questions in determining how I'd react in that particular situation.

Either way, the failure to place a sheet of paper on the scale strikes me as utterly bizarre; I've never seen that in even the funkiest markets where I've bought seafood.

I agree with the many posters who've pointed out that gloves are no excuse for abandoning proper hygenic practices. However, bare hands + frequent washing isn't always a good option; it may force a person right out of a food profession, as I learned last week from my dermatologist after he examined a particularly nasty case of thumb fungus (mine) caused by excessive handwashing & dishwashing.

Edited February 23, 2005 by ghostrider (log)

[Darcie B]

I know there are probably roaches in many restaurants, but the minute I see one I'm outta there.

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Darcie, you'll probably be unsurprised that there's an eGullet thread about that topic.

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You're right, I'm not surprised. Having worked in several restaurants in the upper Midwest where there were NO insect problems, I was totally taken aback to find a roach in my steamed rice at a Chinese place here in WV. I understand that 40 degrees below zero keeps the bug population down in Minnesota, but even in the South I won't tolerate roaches in the dining area or in my food. While I am no fan of chemicals, I think properly applied in restaurants they are a necessary evil. Of course, better cleaning of the place would help. My husband did commercial HVAC work for years and there are many, many restaurants where we won't eat.

Here's a story for you. A local biscuit place had my husband come in to fix their A/C. He pulled the filters out above the stove and several dead mice fell out. Then, while he was getting off a ladder he put his dirty work boot up to his ankle into a bucket of sausage gravy that a cook put right under him. The cook just shrugged, ladled a small portion of gravy into the garbage and stirred the remainder. I guess we should be happy he ladled some out!

My husband said the cleanest kitchens he saw were at McDonalds.

[Bond Girl]

Wild Edibles is one of the "haute" seafood places in NYC. You can get all sorts of stuff from baby octopus to sweet Maine shrimps there. I believe they may even supply to some restaurants in the New York area.

[markk]

I'm always impressed by the counter guys with gloves handling the money and then going back to work with the food. Then there are the guys with one glove. One hand for the food and the other for the money as if you could make a sandwich with one hand.

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I'm always appalled that people who handle food don't understand the problems with sanitation and food safety, and aren't forced to learn, and in answer to the original question, I have a zero tolerance as well.

One day last year I decided to have a hot dog from one of Jersey City's most popular hot dog trucks. (This is something I never do, but the craving hit and I see that it's a very popular place.) The proprietor himself was serving, and as usual, there was a long line, which went out to the curb and then along the street. The person in front of me was a teenage kid dribbling a basketball in the gutter, bouncing it up and down with his hands. When his turn came to be served and he reached in his pocket with those same hands to get money, I realized that he was about to hand it to the proprietor, who was then going to handle the money touched by those hands, and then touch whatever hot dogs I ordered. (He wasn't wearing gloves, so there were none to change.) I got off the line, my craving for a hot dog suddenly gone. (The guy called out after me to ask what was wrong, but I just kept going.)

I try not to have unrealistically high standards about sanitation, but this was just too much for me.

[NulloModo]

I'm always appalled that people who handle food don't understand the problems with sanitation and food safety, and aren't forced to learn, and in answer to the original question, I have a zero tolerance as well.

One day last year I decided to have a hot dog from one of Jersey City's most popular hot dog trucks.  (This is something I never do, but the craving hit and I see that it's a very popular place.)  The proprietor himself was serving, and as usual, there was a long line, which went out to the curb and then along the street.  The person in front of me was a teenage kid dribbling a basketball in the gutter, bouncing it up and down with his hands.  When his turn came to be served and he reached in his pocket with those same hands to get money, I realized that he was about to hand it to the proprietor, who was then going to handle the money touched by those hands, and then touch whatever hot dogs I ordered.  (He wasn't wearing gloves, so there were none to change.)  I got off the line, my craving for a hot dog suddenly gone.  (The guy called out after me to ask what was wrong, but I just kept going.)

I try not to have unrealistically high standards about sanitation, but this was just too much for me.

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I think part of the street food appeal is the potential 'dirtyness' of it. IfI saw a street food vendor wearing sanitation gloves I'd be turned off by it honestly.

[markk]

I'm always appalled that people who handle food don't understand the problems with sanitation and food safety, and aren't forced to learn, and in answer to the original question, I have a zero tolerance as well.

One day last year I decided to have a hot dog from one of Jersey City's most popular hot dog trucks.  (This is something I never do, but the craving hit and I see that it's a very popular place.)  The proprietor himself was serving, and as usual, there was a long line, which went out to the curb and then along the street.  The person in front of me was a teenage kid dribbling a basketball in the gutter, bouncing it up and down with his hands.  When his turn came to be served and he reached in his pocket with those same hands to get money, I realized that he was about to hand it to the proprietor, who was then going to handle the money touched by those hands, and then touch whatever hot dogs I ordered.  (He wasn't wearing gloves, so there were none to change.)  I got off the line, my craving for a hot dog suddenly gone.  (The guy called out after me to ask what was wrong, but I just kept going.)

I try not to have unrealistically high standards about sanitation, but this was just too much for me.

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I think part of the street food appeal is the potential 'dirtyness' of it. IfI saw a street food vendor wearing sanitation gloves I'd be turned off by it honestly.

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If you saw a street vendor in New York City drop some coins in the street (not just the sidewalk, but the street with the gutter and the traffic), pick them up with his bare hands, and then reach for your hot dog roll a second later with that same hand, would you eat it?

(I wouldn't.)

[NulloModo]

If you saw a street vendor in New York City drop some coins in the street (not just the sidewalk, but the street with the gutter and the traffic), pick them up with his bare hands, and then reach for your hot dog roll a second later with that same hand, would you eat it? 

(I wouldn't.)

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Honestly? Yes, I probably wouldn't even give it the thought that he just did something unsanitary... Food safety is just hardly ever in my mind to any degree, so, it would likely just not even occur to me to be worried about what he did, I would already be salivating over the hot dog.

[markk]

As an adult, some years ago, I had lunch at a school cafeteria (admittedly a very prestigious private school) where I did some work one day. Many of the kids brought their plates back up to the serving line for seconds, where the servers would scoop out another portion of food with the big stainless serving spoons, and dump in onto their plates by tapping the edge of the spoon onto the plate to ensure that all the food would fall out. Personally, I was horrified - they're touching the serving spoons right into the plates where the kids have just eaten with their forks, and then basically taking all the germs that each kid might have on his or her plate, plunging them back into the warming tray of food, and then serving them to the next people in line.

I expressed my horror to the adults I was with, and they just shrugged and didn't seem to get it.

Is it me? Does anybody see my point? Or am I overly phobic here?

[markk]

If you saw a street vendor in New York City drop some coins in the street (not just the sidewalk, but the street with the gutter and the traffic), pick them up with his bare hands, and then reach for your hot dog roll a second later with that same hand, would you eat it? 

(I wouldn't.)

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Honestly? Yes, I probably wouldn't even give it the thought that he just did something unsanitary... Food safety is just hardly ever in my mind to any degree, so, it would likely just not even occur to me to be worried about what he did, I would already be salivating over the hot dog.

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Well, that's a very fair answer. I had posted my next (cafeteria) message before you even replied. I would say that you and I are at opposite ends of the scale on this issue.

[NulloModo]

Well, that's a very fair answer.  I had posted my next (cafeteria) message before you even replied.  I would say that you and I are at opposite ends of the scale on this issue.

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Most likely. Actually, your cafeteria story makes me just now understand why buffets suggest you get fresh plates every time you go up, I always thought it was odd, as the food is going from serving dish to plate, not vice versa. I always kinda though buffets did it just to track how much you were eating so they could kick you out if you had been there for a while...

[markk]

Well, that's a very fair answer.  I had posted my next (cafeteria) message before you even replied.  I would say that you and I are at opposite ends of the scale on this issue.

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Most likely. Actually, your cafeteria story makes me just now understand why buffets suggest you get fresh plates every time you go up, I always thought it was odd, as the food is going from serving dish to plate, not vice versa. I always kinda though buffets did it just to track how much you were eating so they could kick you out if you had been there for a while...

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Omigod! The horrors of being at a buffet where, notwithstanding the fact that people must take fresh plates every time they come back for more, you still have strangers eating spare ribs and such with their hands and then touching the serving utensils... (!!!) Dont get me started !

[TheFoodTutor]

Most people would have taken the skate, cooked it, and enjoyed it without all that fuss.  Being a food person, probably made me less tolerant of unhealthy food practices. 

I'm going to preface this by saying that, as a restaurant worker, I am ServSafe Certified, and I am knowledgable and careful in all of my food handling techniques. However, I am also very aware of how many people touch my food before it gets to me, and how unclean a lot of very "clean-looking" things can be. While NulloModo and I probably don't agree on absolutely everything, I tend to take his attitude toward street food and some of the more gritty aspects of the really terrific ethnic foods that can be had in my city.

Once, I was working a silver polishing shift (which is exactly as boring as it sounds) and the fine dining restaurant where I worked did a heck of a lot of volume, which meant that sometimes the silverware would have all sorts of remnants of food clinging to it, but I knew that the silverware was sterilized by both heat and chemicals, so while it looked gross, I knew it would still be safe to polish and use for service. Sometimes, I would have to send the silver back through, which meant putting my hands through more heat and chemicals to polish, a definite disincentive for me, as I was already chapped after just a few hours.

So anyway, a chef walked by my station and grabbed a fork out of the unpolished pile, as he'd just plated himself a little bit of dinner. I stopped him, pointed out the nastiness in the bustub with the unpolished silver, and offered him one of the ones I'd polished. His response? "Nah. This way it strengthens my immune system."

So I'd have to say that being big into food is not mutually exclusive with having a cavalier attitude about the food one ingests. It's more a matter of what one perceives as being threatening.

I would, however, like to caution some of the posters in this thread against reading Kitchen Confidential.

[M. Lucia]

I would, however, like to caution some of the posters in this thread against reading Kitchen Confidential.

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My thoughts exactly.

The used plate-servingware thing is pretty fastidious to me, not illogical, but a bit obsessive in my opinion.

[Pan]

[...]The person in front of me was a teenage kid dribbling a basketball in the gutter, bouncing it up and down with his hands.  When his turn came to be served and he reached in his pocket with those same hands to get money, I realized that he was about to hand it to the proprietor, who was then going to handle the money touched by those hands, and then touch whatever hot dogs I ordered.  (He wasn't wearing gloves, so there were none to change.)  I got off the line, my craving for a hot dog suddenly gone.  (The guy called out after me to ask what was wrong, but I just kept going.)[...]

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Why didn't you explain?

[markk]

[...]The person in front of me was a teenage kid dribbling a basketball in the gutter, bouncing it up and down with his hands.  When his turn came to be served and he reached in his pocket with those same hands to get money, I realized that he was about to hand it to the proprietor, who was then going to handle the money touched by those hands, and then touch whatever hot dogs I ordered.  (He wasn't wearing gloves, so there were none to change.)  I got off the line, my craving for a hot dog suddenly gone.  (The guy called out after me to ask what was wrong, but I just kept going.)[...]

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Why didn't you explain?

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Well, I was disgusted, and it seemed pointless. Here's a guy who owns his own foodservice business, not practicing any visible sanitary measures at all. I don't get the feeling he would have run out and bought enough disposable gloves to change after handling each customer's money from that day on, and from what I could see from peeking into his wagon, I think that if he needed to wash his hands he'd have had to close up shop and drive somewhere. So I left before letting him handle my food.

[viva]

There's probably more crap *in* those hot dogs than there is on that guy's hands. Just sayin'...

I'm probably on NulloModo's end of the spectrum. Unless it is blatantly dropped on the ground in front of me, has hair or other body parts on it, or smells/looks funky, I'll probably eat it. Regarding the floor... if it's my floor, the 5 second rule applies.

This approach has only come back to bite me in the ass once, while in a small village in Peru. They'd been without power for a few days, and I decided to eat the chorizo and cheese pizza. Who knows, it could have been the sangria served in a shady-looking bottle too. Tasted mighty fine, however.