What Would Have Been a Better Match?

[Susan in FL]

Chardonnay didn't turn out to be a good match for our Pistachio-Crusted Grouper with Mango and Kiwi Salsa. The food was great, a keeper recipe which we'll have again, so I'm wondering what will be a better wine pairing next time. We didn't know whether to select a wine primarily for the fish, the nutty flavor of the crust, or the ingredients in the salsa (besides the fruit, the usual -- red pepper, onion, lime juice, etc.) or what! With exceptions, we prefer reds, but were really unsure about a red for this. I'm looking forward to comments and suggestions.

[Rich Pawlak]

I think a Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand might be a better match, like Cloudy Bay, for example; their style of SB still maintains an earthy, vegetal touch that I think would work with the mango and lime, which are the flavors I would worry about complementing.

[Carolyn Tillie]

My initial reaction would have been a Sauvignon Blanc as well. I have a huge problem with Chards pairing with food - so often the butter and oak in Chardonnay contradicts other flavors to a point of distraction. So often it can ruin a dish.

You mention mango and lime - another suggestion would have been a Gewurtz. I beat this drum to death, but the Alsation-style Gewurtztraminers that are low residual sugar (less than 1%) work really well. So many people dismiss Gewurtz because they are used to the really sweet ones - 3%+ residual sugar. Alsation-style is much drier and lovelier with flavors like you mentioned.

For a red, there is always Pinot Noir - there is this addage that Pinot goes with just about anything and when in doubt, I'll open a Pinot and am rarely disappointed.

[KatieLoeb]

Suggestions you've received so far are excellent, particularly the gewurztraminer. In addition to the Alsace selections, Foris Vineyards in Oregon makes a surprisingly dry (only .4% residual sugar) and restrained Gewurz that sounds like it would have been perfect with this dish.

The other route to take would be a Rhone white single varietal (Marsanne comes to mind) or a blend from the same area. The wines tend to have those lovely nutty notes and earthy character that would compliment this dish. Treana Winery from California's Central Coast makes a proprietary blend that is 34% Marsanne/66% Viognier. It's absolutely delicious and the tropical notes of the wine would compliment the mango salsa quite nicely, I think.

[tommy]

and if you don't want to go overboard with the citrusy grapefruity NZ SBs, don't be afraid to drink a SB from Bordeaux. the acidity is usually a little less bracing, but it has enough to compliment magno.

in addition to Cloudy Bay, which imo is terribly overpriced, there are a bunch of other producers whose wines are readily available for 8-15 bukcs, such as Babich, Kim Crawford (a personal fav.), and villa maria, who has started using screw caps (thank you).

[Carema]

You did not mention which chardonnay you chose.

In my book, food pairing can go down two roads. Like on like, or compare and contrast.

The Chardonnay I can imagine working with this dish would be the Schwarz out of Austria. Manfred Krankl ( sine qua non) and Alois Kracher (insane dessert wine man) make this together. It has:

1) RS

2) bitching oak

3) blinding acidity

With oily grouper, nut and heat (from salsa) it would have been a decadent pairing.

On the other side, something with acid and austerity would have worked too. I had Ribolla Gialla tonight from La Viarte that was complex and interesting. Ribolla is a white that grows in Friuli and had its heyday in the 17th century. It was almost killed off by phyloxerra and is now having a small comeback. I made a rich pork loin roast stuffed with walnut, fig, spinach and garlic and had on the side onions and potatoes that cooked in the pan with the pork and the fat. This wine more than stood up to this dish.

It is my parents' 40th wedding anniversary. They went out the door together holding hands. My son is running a 102 F fever and only sipping miso broth. there is a lot of leftover pork and not much Ribolla Gialla. I have lunches packed for six friends tomorrow. I will probably never see a 40th wedding anniversary. Despite all the hollering in their house, everyone still is hanging on. When your children are sick they smell differently (still sweet) and their little cheeks flush and you can't help but loving them even more. I try to explain that fever is like a superhero coming to the rescue.

BTW retail prices on the wines are as follows

$36 for chard

$20 for Ribolla

[Jason Perlow]

2) bitching oak

See, I dont see "bitching oak" as a particularly good match for seafood, or anything for that matter.

My first thought would have been a Alsatian wine, a Pinot Gris, Gewurztraminer or a Reisling. Even a German Reisling Spatslese or Auslese because you got the mango and kiwi sauce which should stand up to the residual sweetness pretty well. Then perhaps an Austrian Gruner Veltliner and perhaps Chenin Blanc or Sauvignon Blanc if you want to go more mainstream french.

Chardonnay would NEVER enter in on my list to match with that dish!

[Carema]

Chardonnay would NEVER enter in on my list to match with that dish!

Until you have had this Schwarz in your mouth, you cannot dis it. It is not like Chardonnay in any sense. Chardonnay is very susepitible to Bot especially in these fields. I have drunk this wine a lot, and I am intimately familiar with grouper and pistachios. I stand by the rec. The sugar and acid far outstrip the oak on this one. I suggest Mr toast and Serve bag (*which incidently I love and you can do frico in) that you revisit Chardonnay in Austria.

Edited December 1, 2003 by Carema (log)

[Jason Perlow]

From what I know of Austrian wines is that they don't use new oak. So I'd probably like it.

[Carema]

Remember too that the gentlemen making this wine are surely not traditionalists. Manfred makes Pinot of oregon that measures on the 15% alcohol or more scale. And Kracher rates his wines 1-15/ 1 being like thin honey and 15 being like cloying good unmovable golden slow sweet puddle. Manfred has had most of his success with over the top Syrahs. Together they do a Zweigelt too (love child of pinot noir and gamay) that is out of control.

Oak is being employed in Austria especially in Styria where a great amount of modern experimentation is in the works.

[KatieLoeb]

Remember too that the gentlemen making this wine are surely not traditionalists. Manfred makes Pinot of oregon that measures on the 15% alcohol or more scale. And Kracher rates his wines 1-15/ 1 being like thin honey and 15 being like cloying good unmovable golden slow sweet puddle. Manfred has had most of his success with over the top Syrahs. Together they do a Zweigelt too (love child of pinot noir and gamay) that is out of control.

Oak is being employed in Austria especially in Styria where a great amount of modern experimentation is in the works.

Egads! Gotta find me a bottle of that Zwiegelt! That sounds positively yummy. I'm a big fan of Austrian wines, having spent some time there exploring the Wachau and Burgenland at great length. I know I've had wines from Kracher, but I just can't remember which one. I'm certain I liked them though, as the only Austrian wine I've ever had that wasn't good was the predictably ordinary plonk at the local Heurigen.

It's about time that the Austrian wine industry came out from beneath the cloud of suspicion following the "Antifreeze Scandal" of 1985. It's been almost twenty years! I'm happy to hear that there's some modern techniques being employed and am very interested to see what the final results of that will be. My belief is that wine that comes from the places where the vines can barely eke out an existence is always the most interesting. Anyone that's ever seen those terraced vineyards and rocky soil will know what I'm talking about where certain Austrian wine is concerned. Couple that with some improved technology and technique and the end results could be mind blowing.

[Carema]

  My belief is that wine that comes from the places where the vines can barely eke out an existence is always the most interesting.  Anyone that's ever seen those terraced vineyards and rocky soil will know what I'm talking about where certain Austrian wine is concerned. 

Some of the greatest wines in the world certainly come from places such as you described. Anyone who has felt a Mistral wind whip through their thickest coat can attest to this.

People in Austria are having fun and making great wines. Where else in the world can Pinot Blanc (Weissburgunder) actually achieve more complexity than Condrieu and be imminently more friendly plus have daunting acid? I bought a glazed Le Crueset Pitcher today specifically for decanting Austrian whites. It is blue and very cute. The ceramic warms them up and the air calms down the spastic acid. Right now we are selling a bunch of Austrain wine. When people can have Kungsgaardesque whites with no malo and for only 30 bucks a bottle they are hooked!

[Motochef]

I think the "proper" chardonnay would have been perfect. Chardonnay wines tend to drift from oak and tannin to vanilla and fruity. Chardonnay's like a Nyer or a Moer Solet (sp?) would have been perfect. What vintor and vintage did you choose?

Motochef!

[tjaehnigen]

I think a Sauvignon Blanc from New Zealand might be a better match, like Cloudy Bay, for example; their style of SB still maintains an earthy, vegetal touch that I think would work with the mango and lime, which are the flavors I would worry about complementing.

Just what I was going to suggest.

[LOS]

The things in this dish that make it a tough match are the spice (red pepper) and the sweetness of the fruit. This will kill almost any dry still wine. I think a Chardonnay of pretty much any stripe will be horrible (Champagne excepted).

My first choice would be a sparking wine of simple pedigree, maybe a Cava or Crement de Alsace. Also good would be a basic Loire Chenin with a hint of RS, like Champalou's Vouvray. Gewurtz is another good option, but I would vote for a German kabinett or maybe a spatlese over an Alsatian -- though the Alsatian could work if it had a touch of RS. As natural as the SB/seafood match is, IME Sauvignon Blanc does very poorly with sweet foods, and this recipe looks to be very sweet for a fish dish. Possibly sweet enough to warrant a German Auslese, as suggested by Jason.

[LOS]

On the other side, something with acid and austerity would have worked too. I had  Ribolla Gialla tonight from La Viarte that was complex and interesting. Ribolla is a white that grows in Friuli and had its heyday in the 17th century. It was almost killed off by phyloxerra and is now having a small comeback. I made a rich pork loin roast stuffed with walnut, fig, spinach and garlic and had on the side onions and potatoes that cooked in the pan with the pork and the fat. This wine more than stood up to this dish.

Jermann makes a stunning Ribolla Gailla called 'Vinnae'. It needs 4-6 hours to show well, but it is wonderful once it opens up.

[KatieLoeb]

  My belief is that wine that comes from the places where the vines can barely eke out an existence is always the most interesting.  Anyone that's ever seen those terraced vineyards and rocky soil will know what I'm talking about where certain Austrian wine is concerned. 

Some of the greatest wines in the world certainly come from places such as you described. Anyone who has felt a Mistral wind whip through their thickest coat can attest to this.

People in Austria are having fun and making great wines. Where else in the world can Pinot Blanc (Weissburgunder) actually achieve more complexity than Condrieu and be imminently more friendly plus have daunting acid? I bought a glazed Le Crueset Pitcher today specifically for decanting Austrian whites. It is blue and very cute. The ceramic warms them up and the air calms down the spastic acid. Right now we are selling a bunch of Austrain wine. When people can have Kungsgaardesque whites with no malo and for only 30 bucks a bottle they are hooked!

Carema:

Interesting assessment. And I like the idea of the ceramic decanting pitcher. "Spastic Acid" indeed!

Your post reminds me that the right Condrieu might have been a spectacular pairing with this dish as well.

[dlc]

Your post reminds me that the right Condrieu might have been a spectacular pairing with this dish as well.

Katie,

I think you are right on with a Condrieu, it would be a great pairing. I think that an slightly older(3-4 yrs) Corton-Charlemange would be a good match with this. The Bonneau du Martray has a toasted hazelnut and tropical fruit aspect that I think would match with the mango and pistachio. This would be the only Chard that I think might go with this dish, my only concern would be the oilyness of the fish.

[Andre]

Great thread,

I must confess that "bitching oak" does sound scary since [ and this may have been the case with the first choice of chardonnay ] the combination may result in unpleasant bitterness.

I have two choices in mind:

1. a rather round and certainly not perfumed wine such as the Pinot Blanc from Alsace. If the sauce is on the side of this fish, the result may be very pleasant.

2. A vermentino [ Rolle] from Sardegna or a dry earthy white from Portugal. Again would stay away from perfumed or even sweet wines as they may not be able to deal with the sauce.

[Susan in FL]

Thank you all for the great suggestions and discussion. Sparkling... Why didn't I think of that?! Actually, I'm surprised we didn't. Often it goes well with tough decision foods.

Unfortunately, we didn't put much time or thought into selecting this wine, but next time we have the dish, we will. I was leaning more toward Sauvignon Blanc. It was a Clos du Bois, Calcaire Vineyard. I can't remember what vintage, but I have been disappointed in Clos du Bois of late. Seems to me we had some awesome ones 10 to 15 years ago, but then again, maybe my palate is what has improved. Carolyn, I have to agree with you about flavors of Chardonnay contradicting other flavors to a point of distraction, especially the oak. More and more, I'm enjoying Chardonnay less and less. It has to be exceptional for me to be crazy over it with food, and not to leave splinters in my tongue.

We drink Pinot Noir with fish quite often, especially when it's a more straight-forward preparation. But with this dish, it was hard to go there.

I also like the ideas of Gewurtz, Reisling, or Alsatian on the dry side.

Some wines were mentioned that I'm not acquainted with. I learned a lot, thanks! You've gotten me wanting to try a Ribolla, for one.

Carema, I hope your child is feeling better.

[wineserver]

Lots of great options offered by various posters. I particularly like the idea of Jermann Vinae. If, however, it must be a Chardonnay I strongly urge you to look to Australia for an unoaked version such as Ferngrove or Madfish Bay from Western Australia or for something a bit more complex try Shaw & Smith from the Adelaide Hills. The balance between ripe, intense tropical fruit aroma and flavor and mouthwatering acidity with no interference from oak provides the necessary ingredients for a good match with your dish. This unoaked category has really exploded in Australia and has gained momentum here in the States as well. These wines are often in the best buy category. No bitchin aok here!

[Carema]

I am afraid there has been a grave misunderstanding of my use of the term "bitching oak".

Bitching could be interpreted like "cool" ie good ie, a well applied use of oak. Sometimes oak is good. Look at some burgundies. Y'all like burgundies. Sometimes there is bitching oak when it comes to burgundies. I fear I was not accurate enough in my description when I listed three good things about the Schwarz.

As much as I love a stainless steel tank, sometimes it doesn't impart enough complexity. Enough as I love new oak barrels and their clean aromatic smells, sometimes they kill wines. As much as I love nasty old 200 year old foudre, the stank of yummy brett can be a little much (although bret rocks- it is bitching too).

Sometimes those unoaked australians can be like pineapple upside down cakes- cakes are cooked in metal pans. Do not be afraid my bretheren of the bitch and the oak. Just be cautious.

The world is lovely and full of wine. Do not disparage that which you have not had between your lips. Even if it is bitching and oaky.

[tcizma]

I love off the wall wines, and am very fond of Austrian and German wines in general. I went to visit Miss Carema and purchased a bottle of said bitchin Schwarz.

GO OUT AND GET SOME RIGHT NOW.

If my opinion counts for anything, I'd say this would have been a formidable match for the dish as described.

Of course I didn't taste it, but taking into account the ingredients and what I know the fish to taste like, the racy acid structure and interesting not overbearing wood influence make it a nice pairing.

[Susan in FL]

I like off-the-wall wines, too. Thanks for the ongoing replies. I want to see if the Schwarz is available here, just because of this thread. I haven't seen many Austrian wine on the shelves locally.