The Chow Mein Topic

[jo-mel]

StellarWOK-----That 'illusive smoky flavor'----

Next time you are in a Chinese take-out, watch the cookers. They are using very high heat. They will take that wok and tilt it, using arm control. It shift the woks contents so that the high heat will come in contact with the oil vapor/fumes in the wok. It will flare briefly, then die out. The wok contents gain in flavor, and the wok itself takes on its own special something --usually called Wok Qi -- Wok spirit --- that is then transferred to the food in the wok. It is not something that can be attained on our regular kitchen stove. They are not hot enough.

Maybe others can explain it better than I.

[Gary Soup]

[ It has an illusive smokey flavor I can't attribute to anything but it is an interesting note that I would not know how to duplicate. All in all is is about a cup of the dish served with every lunch. I savor it.

The elusive "smokey" flavor could also come from a drizzle of dark sesame oil, which to my taste buds imparts a slightly "burnt" taste.

[stellarWOK]

The elusive "smokey" flavor could also come from a drizzle of dark sesame oil, which to my taste buds imparts a slightly "burnt" taste.

That flavor could very well be from dark sesame oil. I will have to sample it again. My nose tells me when sesame oil is present, then the flavor. I am not sure it is sesame.

I would love to watch a master wok cook at work.

As noted somewhere else in this forum, when I need really high heat, I take the wok ouitside and use a separate burner on my grill. Hmmm...I should take the opportunity to finish the scallion bread with the grill surface.

[LittleSuperHero]

The elusive "smokey" flavor could also come from a drizzle of dark sesame oil, which to my taste buds imparts a slightly "burnt" taste.

That flavor could very well be from dark sesame oil. I will have to sample it again.

I don't think the flavour is from sesame oil - i think jo-mel is right - the smoky flavour comes about due to the "flambe" effect.

Re Chow Mein

The funny thing is that food outlets in Asia dont really have "chow mein" on their menu. I also confess that i have no idea what chop suey is. (what is it? what goes into it?)

[jo-mel]

Not being Chinese, so of course, not being Toisanese, I can only relate what I've read. The origin of Chop Suey is mentioned in my books on food in Chinese culture.

With my two typing fingers, this is what Anderson says in "The Food of China" (a terrific book!):

"Last of all, chop suey is not --- as many would-be connoisseurs believe ---an American invention. As li Shu-fan points out in his delightful autobiography, HONG KONG SURGEON (1964), it is a local Toisanese dish. Toisan is a rural district south of Canton, the home for most of the early immigrants from Kwangtung to California. The name is Cantonese 'thap seui' (Mandarin tsa sui), "Miscellaneous scraps". Basically, it is leftover or odd-lot vegetbles stir-fried together. Noodles are often included. Bean sprouts are almost invariably present, but the dish varies according to whatever is around. The origin myth of chop suey is that it was invented in SanFrancisco, when someone demanded food late at night at a small Chinese restaurant. Out of food, the restaurant cooked up the day's slops, and chop suey was born. (The "someone" can be a Chinese dignitary, a band of drunken miners, a SanFrancisco political boss, and so on.)

Before this paragraph on Chop Suey, Anderson wrote of 'three dishes' that define Cantonese cuisine outside of China that are more authentic, but are not the height of the true cuisine ---- Fried rice, chow mein , and chop suey.

He continues: None of the above dishes ranks high with Cantonese gourmet, since all are mixtures of a lot of things and none demands fresh fixings. In fact all of them are in the nature of hash ----cheap, quich, easy ways to get rid of less than desirable leftovers and other scraps. Their popularity with restauranteurs is easy to explain -----all the stuff that would otherwise have to go to the animals can be fed with people. As a matter of fact, they can be excellent dihes in their own right and are widely popular, but their avatars in traditional cafes and homes in Hong Kong are very different from those one encounters in restaurants catering to Westerners.

OK! (Pardon any mispelled words.) As I typed this, I could smell the aroma of chop suey as I walked thru the exotic streets of Boston'e Chinatown when I was a little girl. Fancy, it may not be, but it started a life-long fascination and love of China and Chinese food.

[Gary Soup]

Re Chow Mein

The funny thing is that food outlets in Asia dont really have "chow mein" on their menu.

I don't know what you mean by "food outlets" but you can find chow mein at plenty of restaurants in Shanghai and I daresay at most dim sum houses in Hong Kong.

[Gary Soup]

"Last of all, chop suey is not --- as many would-be connoisseurs believe ---an American invention. As li Shu-fan points out in his delightful autobiography, HONG KONG SURGEON (1964), it is a local Toisanese dish. Toisan is a rural district south of Canton, the home for most of the early immigrants from Kwangtung to California. The name is Cantonese 'thap seui' (Mandarin tsa sui), "Miscellaneous scraps". Basically, it is leftover or odd-lot vegetbles stir-fried together.

It lives on under the name "Happy Family" on the vegetable section of many Chinese restaurant menus.

[HKDave]

LittleSuperhero is right, chow mein isn't on many menus here in Hong Kong. You tend to find it at 'old school' type Cantonese restaurants. But just about any restaurant will make it on request.

The usual prep here in HK for the popular seafood version is a base of crispy fried mein (the hint of smoke flavour discussed earlier is the thread is from some of the noodles on the bottom just stating to brown, not sesame oil. And yes, you do need a hot wok) with stir fried seafood (shrimp, squid, scallop and/or fish), a couple of slices of carrot and ginger, garnish with a couple pieces of blanched choi sum and a straw mushroom or two, and finish with a semi-clear sauce of cornstach-thickened stock. Red vinegar served on the side. Yung Kee does a good version.

Funny thing is, it's always the first thing to be eaten whenever anyone orders it. It may not be a modern classy Chinese dish but everyone - Chinese or not - seems to like it! I find that even at swank banquet-style business meals, there may be leftover lobster or goose or steamed garoupa, but never leftover chow mein.

The New York version Eddie is talking about is unknown to me - bean sprouts? celery? onion? Not usually found in Pacific-rim chow mein, at least in my experience. But probably delicious anyway. Purist chow mein is a contradiction in terms.

[herbacidal]

the chowmein that hkdave is referring to is different than the others ones discussed.

it is a standard for many cantonese, using egg noodles;

in the US I think I have heard of them stir fried with:

lobster

seafood (squid, jumbo shrimp, scallop)

shredded pork

braised beef/beef brisket

among other things, as the base ingredient.

straw mushrooms, carrots, choi sum, etc. would be thrown in as well.

Edited November 26, 2003 by herbacidal (log)

[Gary Soup]

the chowmein that hkdave is referring to is different than the others ones discussed.

it is a standard for many cantonese, using egg noodles;

in the US I think I have heard of them stir fried with:

lobster

seafood (squid, jumbo shrimp, scallop)

shredded pork

braised beef/beef brisket

among other things, as the base ingredient.

straw mushrooms, carrots, choi sum, etc. would be thrown in as well.

I'd say it's peculiar to Hong Kong in particular. Mainland Cantonese tend to favor a larger noodle, and as far as I am aware, never cook them crisp.

As far as chow mein not being "on the menu" in HK, it is, as I mentioned, a staple of dim sum houses where menus are not usually used in any case. I doubt that there are many dim sum houses in HK that DONT serve chow mein, and plenty of people order it. It's probably true it won't appear on dinner menus, though. It's the same case in Shanghai, where chow mein is usually only consumed with "xiao cai" meals. At dinner, its declasse to order any starch, even rice.

[herbacidal]

As far as chow mein not being "on the menu" in HK, it is, as I mentioned, a staple of dim sum houses where menus are not usually used in any case. I doubt that there are many dim sum houses in HK that DONT serve chow mein, and plenty of people order it. It's probably true it won't appear on dinner menus, though. It's the same case in Shanghai, where chow mein is usually only consumed with "xiao cai" meals. At dinner, its declasse to order any starch, even rice.

i was just saying that the chow mein we are now focusing on is not the chow mein eddie was referring to at the start of this thread.

they are 2 entirely different things. i don't want someone less familar with chinese food to be confused.

[Gary Soup]

i was just saying that the chow mein we are now focusing on is not the chow mein eddie was referring to at the start of this thread.

they are 2 entirely different things.  i don't want someone less familar with chinese food to be confused.

I get you. Actually we are talking about three different things. The HK style chow mein is almost as much an aberration from mainland chao mian as is the "American style" chow mein Eddie was talking about. But don't get me wrong. I've come to like the HK style for its mixture of textures--soft on top and crunchy on the bottom. I had some today with dim sum, topped with a generous portion of large velveted shrimp and baby bok choy.

[Pan]

[...]

As far as chow mein not being "on the menu" in HK, it is, as I mentioned, a staple of dim sum houses where menus are not usually used in any case.  I doubt that there are many dim sum houses in HK that DONT serve chow mein, and plenty of people order it.  It's probably true it won't appear on dinner menus, though.  It's the same case in Shanghai, where chow mein is usually only consumed with "xiao cai" meals.  At dinner, its declasse to order any starch, even rice.

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Two questions for whoever wants to answer them:

(1) What's "xiao cai"?

(2) It's declasse' to order starches for a banquet, I think Gary meant. Anyone want to comment further on this?

[Dejah]

[

(2) It's declasse' to order starches for a banquet, I think Gary meant. Anyone want to comment further on this?

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I think the only time "starch", as in noodles, is ordered for a banquet is when it is a special birthday, like the 60th and onward. "Jeung sau mein" = long life noodles

This may be one of the main dishes or in the dessert soup.

[Pan]

I knew about long life noodles.

[pleased at myself for knowing something about Chinese food]

[hzrt8w]

Two questions for whoever wants to answer them:

(1) What's "xiao cai"?

(2) It's declasse' to order starches for a banquet, I think Gary meant. Anyone want to comment further on this?

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I am no Gary, but I think his terms "xiao cai" means 小菜. While the literal translation is "little vegetables", in general it means stir-fried dishes (dishes that are served in small quantities on small plates).

I think where the term came about is... There are usally 2 types of dinners: either the formal banquet (for business, wedding, birthday, baby month-old, etc.), or the informal family casual dining. For the formal banquets, food is made in large quantity (sized for a table of 12) and thus served on "big" plates. For informal family dining, food is made in small quantity (typically sized for 2-4) and thus served on "small" plates. Hence the term 小菜 (small dishes) came about.

It's declasse' to order starches for a banquet... well, it's some old Chinese thinking. (but I am sure Chinese is not unique). When you entertain your guests by hosting banquets, you want to offer nothing but the best (look at the $$$). Starch (rice, noodle, etc.) is cheap. It can fill you up easily. So you want to order a lot of dishes (seafood, meat, vegetable) and no starch. In fact, in a typical Chinese banquet, you will find 8 courses (first one "appertizers" such as cold cut, BBQ pork, jelly fish, roast suckling pig, etc.), followed by "hot entries", shark-fin soup, etc.. [notes: I had posted a typical banquet menu in another thread on the details]. After all 8 courses, then the waiters will typicall bring up a noodle dish or fried rice dish -- and usually they stay untouched because most guests would be already full by then. But for those who are not yet full, that's a life saver...

Again, this is not unique to Chinese banquet. If you host a French dinner banquet, you wouldn't just serve lots of baked potatoes and breads, right?

[hzrt8w]

I think the only time "starch", as in noodles, is ordered for a banquet is when it is a special birthday, like the 60th and onward. "Jeung sau mein" = long life noodles

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Dejah: Is this (Jeung Sau Mein) Toisanese dialect? [My wife is at work]

In Cantonese it is Cheung Sau Mein.

[Pan]

Thanks, hzrt8w. I was interpreting xiao cai as "small vegetables" but wasn't sure if the tones were right and didn't understand what that would have meant, anyway.

[jkonick]

I've had this dish a few times at chinese restaurants, but I've never been able to find a recipe. It's thin fried noodles usually with bean sprouts,white and green onions, and a soy sauce-y taste. When I've had it in dim sum it usually comes in a clear bowl, upside down on a plate. If anyone has a recipe for this or could tell me how to recreate it more or less I'd appreciate it!

[hzrt8w]

...... If anyone has a recipe for this or could tell me how to recreate it more or less I'd appreciate it!

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You don't really need a formal recipe. This dish is very easy to make.

First cook the noodles. Thin ones work the best. Thick ones are okay but take longer to cook. Boil some water in a pot. Cook the noodles to el dante. Run under cold water and drain well.

Prepare the bean sprouts: don't need to use too much, just a handful would be enough. Wash and clean and drain.

Prepare the green onions: use about 2. Cut into 1.5 inch long pieces.

Use a pan/wok, apply high heat. Add cooking oil. You need to use a generous amount, or else the noodle will stick to the pan. I can't tell you exactly how much. Probably 2 tblsp per "ball" (for lack of a better term) of noodle you make. Usually the serving size is about 1.5 to 2 "ball" of noodle. Keep heating the pan until the oil start fuming.

If you are a beginner in Chinese cooking, I would advice you to add the green onion first, then bean sprouts, cook for 20 seconds, then add the drained noodles. Keep stirring. After about 3 minutes (until the noodle is hot again), then drizzle in (directly from the bottle) the light soy sauce and dark soy sauce (I usually use a mix. If you have only one or the other, that's okay too.). Dark soy sauce gives is the rich flavor. Light soy sauce gives it the saltiness. Cook for another 2 minutes until the soy sauce is absorbed into the noodles. Adjust and add more if you need. Look at the color of the noodles: you want it to be brown throughout.

If you are experienced in Chinese cooking, I would advice you to mix the light and dark soy sauce in a bowl first. About 1.5 tblsp of each per "ball" of noodle. Note: You have to do this very quickly - when the oil start fuming, quickly add the mixed soy sauce. The sauce will evaporate almost instantly (if you have a burner strong enough). Immediately add green onions, stir, then the drained noodles. Give it a stir. Add the bean sprouts - let the bean sprouts be cooked by the heat from the noodle.

The latter method would achieve a better result - but requires you to act very quickly. That's how the "goon chow gnau ho" (Hong Kong style - dried fried rice noodles with beef) is made. It produces the drak brown sheen that you see on the noodle surface.

Also, I would suggest you use 1/4 of an onion, cut into thin slices. Add it along with the green onion in cooking.

[hzrt8w]

If you are experienced in Chinese cooking, I would advice you to mix the light and dark soy sauce in a bowl first.  About 1.5 tblsp of each per "ball" of noodle.  Note:  You have to do this very quickly -  when the oil start fuming, quickly add the mixed soy sauce.  The sauce will evaporate almost instantly (if you have a burner strong enough).  Immediately add green onions, stir, then the drained noodles.  Give it a stir.  Add the bean sprouts - let the bean sprouts be cooked by the heat from the noodle. 

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Inspired by your question, I made some soy sauce fried noodles for lunch just right now... checking out my own "recipe". I would suggest an even more brave approach - note: this is not for the faint of heart. You should have good ventilation in your kitchen.

I used a generous amount of cooking oil, heat it to fuming hot, throw in the sliced onions first, for just 5-10 seconds. Then (this is new) - dash in just a little bit (1 teaspoon max) of Xiao Shing Chinese cooking wine. Because of the high temperature and the oil, it will induce a big flame on the top of the pan. Immediately pour in the dark/light soy sauce mix. Stir. And toss in the drained noodles. Keep stirring and cook for a couple of minutes. Make sure the soy sauce color is even around the noodles.

The essence of this cooking step is to let the flame and high heat (with oil) cook the soy sauce, and let it coat on the noodle.

The result is very good.

[Tepee]

Thanks, Hz, guess what I'm having for lunch?

[hzrt8w]

Thanks, Hz, guess what I'm having for lunch?

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Please be careful and not let the kitchen catch on fire.

[Tepee]

All's well...lunch has been eaten. No, the kitchen is unscathed...I checked the wind speed/direction etc before I did the flaming act.

[hzrt8w]

I've had this dish a few times at chinese restaurants, but I've never been able to find a recipe.

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jkonick: You can now!

I have written this recipe for you. Better yet, illustrated with over a dozen photos on the process.

Soy Sauce Chow Mein with Chicken