Thrown out of Vegetarian restaurant

[slkinsey]

I was ONLY addressing the question of whether or not one ought to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant.  I don't really care what vegetarians do or don't eat elsewhere.

I don't think anyone is refuting your idea that it can be rude to bring meat into a self-described "vegetarian restaurant." In fact, I thought that is what I was saying at 04:46 PM.

Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass. Given any reasonable understanding of "vegetarian" one should assume that chicken, beef and other such things would not be welcome on the premises. This does not, however, negate the fact that the word "vegetarian" is somewhat nebulous as it is commonly applied and that vegetarianism and religion-based dietary guidelines are fundamentally different in certain respects.

[MatthewB]

Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass.

It's not always clear to *everyone*--often the person in question--when someone has been rude & acted like an ass.

[bergerka]

The evidence would seem to indicate that is is not the case that "the word 'vegetarian' has easily recognizable associations with certain dietary rules and restrictions," as there are plenty of people who call themselves "vegetarians" who eat fish and other animal and animal-derived products.  We also have the example of restaurants (one was cited by FG) that are described as "vegetarian" and yet serve some animal products.

Furthermore, where is the line drawn?  Are "vegetarian restaurants" allowed to use butter, cheese and eggs?  If not, then there are an awful lot of restaurants calling themselves "vegetarian" that don't fit the bill.

Sam, first, please read my posts. As I said before, I think you make a false (and patently silly) comparison when you compare people who "call themselves vegetarians" but eat chicken, fish, blah blah blah with a restaurant that ADVERTISES itself as vegetarian.

Further, with regard to Ozu: do they advertise THEMSELVES as "vegetarian?" I can answer that, because I just (as in, about fifteen seconds before typing this paragraph) called the place and asked if they were a vegetarian restaurant. The answer, as given to me by whoever picked up the phone: "No...we serve many vegetarian dishes but we also serve fish. We do not serve other meat."

There you have it. Whoever answered the phone at Ozu apparently understood that "vegetarian" indicated "no meat."

For approximately the third (fourth) time: I haven't even danced AROUND the subject of what such restaurants ought to be "allowed" to serve (and I believe it was addressed earlier that the "assumption" is that vegetarian implies no meat, vegan implies no animal products), nor do I care to. I am discussing the fact that in common usage, "vegetarian" clearly implies "NO MEAT." Hence, it is (not "can be," IS) rude--and IMHO probably either deliberately inflammatory or plain stupid--to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant.

K

Edited September 22, 2003 by bergerka (log)

[Fat Guy]

Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass.

It's not always clear to *everyone*--often the person in question--when someone has been rude & acted like an ass.

Oh hi Matthew. We've been waiting for you.

[MatthewB]

Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass.

It's not always clear to *everyone*--often the person in question--when someone has been rude & acted like an ass.

Oh hi Matthew. We've been waiting for you.

Thank you.

[slkinsey]

Clearly the woman was rude and acted like an ass.

It's not always clear to *everyone*--often the person in question--when someone has been rude & acted like an ass.

Oh hi Matthew. We've been waiting for you.

Thank you.

Please await my brother. I am sure you will find him a far meatier and tastier billy goat than I...

[tanabutler]

And we haven't even begun to discuss the propriety of breast-feeding in a vegan restaurant.

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF.

[Fat Guy]

I am discussing the fact that in common usage, "vegetarian" clearly implies "NO MEAT."  Hence, it is (not "can be," IS) rude--and IMHO probably either deliberately inflammatory or plain stupid--to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant.

So if we can find some vegetarian-restaurant operators who will say, "I don't mind at all if some mother brings a jar of chicken-based baby-food into the restaurant for her baby" then this argument is over, right?

[slkinsey]

And we haven't even begun to discuss the propriety of breast-feeding in a vegan restaurant.

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF.

I'd just like to go on record as saying that I am all for women baring their breasts in public, for whatever reasons they may choose. No need to restrict it to breast feeding only on account of my delicate sensibilities.

[Fat Guy]

Here's a really odd one:

Fifth Avenue Seafood & Vegetarian Restaurant

5th Ave & East 125th St., NYC

[Hest88]

So if we can find some vegetarian-restaurant operators who will say, "I don't mind at all if some mother brings a jar of chicken-based baby-food into the restaurant for her baby" then this argument is over, right?

If we must again talk about what individual human beings might do instead of just using common sense, I might as well mention that I have a number of Jewish friends who have no qualms about eating pork or following other strictures only when it's convenient.

[ingridsf]

And we haven't even begun to discuss the propriety of breast-feeding in a vegan restaurant.

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF.

Thanks, darlin'. Hee hee, maybe we could convince Millenium to include lactating women in their dinners that feature local producers.

[Fat Guy]

So if we can find some vegetarian-restaurant operators who will say, "I don't mind at all if some mother brings a jar of chicken-based baby-food into the restaurant for her baby" then this argument is over, right?

If we must again talk about what individual human beings might do instead of just using common sense, I might as well mention that I have a number of Jewish friends who have no qualms about eating pork or following other strictures only when it's convenient.

My example is specifically about owners of vegetarian restaurants, presumably the equivalent in their own context of the owners of kosher restaurants. Sure, you can find tons of Jews who don't keep kosher -- in fact you can find tons of them right here on this thread, and you can find at least one of them in this post. But can you find an owner of a kosher restaurant to say, "Go ahead, bring some bacon!" No way. So if we can hypothetically find vegetarian-restaurant owners who will say, "Sure, bring the baby food," then we will have uncovered a fundamental variance between the kosher and vegetarian restaurant communities, right?

[ingridsf]

And we haven't even begun to discuss the propriety of breast-feeding in a vegan restaurant.

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF.

I'd just like to go on record as saying that I am all for women baring their breasts in public, for whatever reasons they may choose. No need to restrict it to breast feeding only on account of my delicate sensibilities.

Oh my god! Arnold has a running mate!

[bergerka]

I am discussing the fact that in common usage, "vegetarian" clearly implies "NO MEAT."  Hence, it is (not "can be," IS) rude--and IMHO probably either deliberately inflammatory or plain stupid--to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant.

So if we can find some vegetarian-restaurant operators who will say, "I don't mind at all if some mother brings a jar of chicken-based baby-food into the restaurant for her baby" then this argument is over, right?

Or--for a counterexample--if I take a random sampling of 100 people off the street and ask them what they think of when they hear the word "vegetarian," if all 100 reply "someone who doesn't eat meat," is the argument also over?

Actually, you'd have to ask them if they'd mind HEATING THE FOOD UP, not just having it in the restaurant at all, wouldn't you?

Don't laugh too hard, I might just do that at lunchtime tomorrow if I'm really THAT bored. Maybe one of 'em will throw money at me. It could happen.

K

Edited to once again agree with what Hest88 said. So there. Neener, neener, neener.

Edited September 22, 2003 by bergerka (log)

[Fat Guy]

Or--for a counterexample--if I take a random sampling of 100 people off the street and ask them what they think of when they hear the word "vegetarian," if all 100 reply "someone who doesn't eat meat," is the argument also over? 

That's a poor counterexample, in fact not a counterexample at all. Who cares what 100 people on the street say? You've stated that it's unequivocally rude to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant. How do we determine the truth or falsehood of that statement? Surely, the owners of vegetarian restaurants are the best people to ask. If they are not unified on the issue, it tells us a lot. It tells us that rudeness isn't part of the equation, and that we're in a much grayer area.

Actually, you'd have to ask them if they'd mind HEATING THE FOOD UP, not just having it in the restaurant at all, wouldn't you?

No, because your position is that bringing the food into the restaurant at all is rude. We have to ascertain the truth of that theory before moving on to the heating-up question, which is admittedly trickier.

Don't laugh too hard, I might just do that at lunchtime tomorrow if I'm really THAT bored.  Maybe one of 'em will throw money at me.  It could happen.

May I suggest you call Rick Bayless first?

[ronnie_suburban]

No, because your position is that bringing the food into the restaurant at all is rude. We have to ascertain the truth of that theory before moving on to the heating-up question, which is admittedly trickier.

I agree with that particular position...I'm going to take several large steps back and say that I think Ms. Graham was out of line for bringing (any) outside food into the restaurant. Vegetarianism and/or heating aside, is it really okay for a customer to bring outside food into (another) restaurant? If I were the restaurant owner in question, I think I'd be miffed by it. Of course, I can't say for sure that I'd forbid it either.

Anyway, to me, that's the essence of the original story and it's why I was so incensed by it...although I am enjoying this thread thoroughly.

=R=

[bergerka]

Don't laugh too hard, I might just do that at lunchtime tomorrow if I'm really THAT bored.  Maybe one of 'em will throw money at me.  It could happen.

May I suggest you call Rick Bayless first?

Will he throw money at me?

I do believe it is unequivocally rude to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant, but I HAVE said "IMO," "IMHO" and "just my opinion" pretty frequently. Furthermore, I'm not actually trying to STOP you from walking into a vegetarian restaurant with a leg o' lamb, I'm just saying that if you do it, I'll think you're being rude. Whether or not you CARE what I think...something else entirely.

I suppose that for me (again: for me. MHO. M.H.O.) this comes down to a bigger issue--I feel it is disrespectful to the philosophy of vegetarianism to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant, and I don't feel the owners of the restaurants have to be unified on that issue for me to think so. I wouldn't do it even if the owner of said restaurant said "ok, sure, fine, slap that steak down here and I'll grill it right up for you"--I'd just go to Peter Luger instead (and eat THEIR meat, since it would undoubtedly be better than anything I'd bring in). Furthermore, I wouldn't do it even if I thought vegetarianism was a silly philosophy.

Having said that...I hereby present you with the last word. No. Please. You must take it. Seriously...you must. I WANT you to have it.

K

[Fat Guy]

is it really okay for a customer to bring outside food into (another) restaurant?

Baby food for a baby? Yes, it is okay to do that. What possible reason could there be to oppose that?

[Fat Guy]

I feel it is disrespectful to the philosophy of vegetarianism to bring meat into a vegetarian restaurant

How about I give you the last word: tell us what the "philosophy of vegetarianism" is and we'll be all set.

[tanabutler]

And we haven't even begun to discuss the propriety of breast-feeding in a vegan restaurant.

BWAH!!! IngridSF, that is hilarious! I feel like printing it up and sending it to Millenium in SF.

I'd just like to go on record as saying that I am all for women baring their breasts in public, for whatever reasons they may choose. No need to restrict it to breast feeding only on account of my delicate sensibilities.

I'm still laughing at this whole thing.

[bergerka]

How about I give you the last word: tell us what the "philosophy of vegetarianism" is and we'll be all set.

Well, first I have to stop hyperventilating...you have to understand...between my family and my SO, it's been YEARS since someone offered me the last word.

Would you accept the Oxford English Dictionary's definition? It seems to sum up my thoughts (again: MY thoughts. not your thoughts. Not that guy over there's thoughts) pretty clearly:

Vegetarianism: The doctrine or practice of vegetarians; abstention from eating meat, fish or other animal products.

and before you say it, yeah, yeah, yeah, by that definition, only...like...VEGAN (or whatever word you use for non-ovo-lacto-fisho-tarians) restaurants are reaaaallly vegetarian, so go right ahead and take that chicken to the restaurant that uses eggs & milk. I still won't, though.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

K

[torakris]

No, because your position is that bringing the food into the restaurant at all is rude. We have to ascertain the truth of that theory before moving on to the heating-up question, which is admittedly trickier.

I agree with that particular position...I'm going to take several large steps back and say that I think Ms. Graham was out of line for bringing (any) outside food into the restaurant. Vegetarianism and/or heating aside, is it really okay for a customer to bring outside food into (another) restaurant? If I were the restaurant owner in question, I think I'd be miffed by it. Of course, I can't say for sure that I'd forbid it either.

Anyway, to me, that's the essence of the original story and it's why I was so incensed by it...although I am enjoying this thread thoroughly.

=R=

In general I agree with this, but I find baby food the exception, should we ban baby bottles and breast milk as well?

As a mother with young children who frequents restaurants quite a bit, I have had jarred food in my bag 'just in case' every time I went out, though I rarely used it I felt better knowing that if my baby didn't like what the restaurant had to offer or if I didn't think there was anything appropriate I could use my jar.

As to other questions about allowing meat into a vegetarian restaurant, do we know this woman intentionaly brought this in? Did she wake up that morning and say to herself I am going to take chicken into a vegetarian and see what happens!

Probably not, she did what any mother would do before leaving the house for the day, she packed her bag with baby stuff, she probably had some diapers, some wipes, maybe some bags for dirty diaper or soiled clothes, maybe a bib or a change of clothes, maybe a couple toys, some paper and crayons for the older one, possibly a changing pad and even a mini first aid kit with some character printed band-aids, and of course a bottle or some type of sippy cup if the baby doesn't yet drink from cups, maybe a towel or hankerchief for cleaning up any messes, an extra pair of socks because the bay always seems to lose them and oh yeah lets through in a jar of baby food in case the baby gets hungry.

Did she she even know she was going to a vegetarian restaurant that day? Did she just happen to walk by and say oh let's go here for lunch, I am sure she gave no thought to that baby food in her bag, and even if there had been a sign on the door saying no meat allowed, I probably would have walked inside giving no thought to that jar in my bag.

It is what happened after that I feel she made the mistake, once realizing that she had a meat product that restaurant would not allow she should have tried to find somethingelse for the baby to eat instead of making the fuss about it. I am sure the restaurant would ahve been more then happy to help her find something on the menu (or even off the menu) for the baby to eat. Even having a bad day does not excuse her behavior.

Edited September 22, 2003 by torakris (log)

[TrishCT]

Vegetarianism and/or heating aside, is it really okay for a customer to bring outside food into (another) restaurant?  If I were the restaurant owner in question, I think I'd be miffed by it.  Of course, I can't say for sure that I'd forbid it either.

Ronnie, you'd be miffed if someone brought in baby food for their baby??? Ooops I see Fat Guy beat me to that query....

To wit,

I understand the concepts of vegetarianism being discussed on this thread, ad nauseum....

And I am not defending the customer....

And I don't run a restaurant...

And I am not a vegetarian by any definition you can fabricate...

But I do know a bit about common courtesy...

It just seems that giving this customer a cup of hot water so she could feed her hungry baby.... Although not something desirable, and not an act the restaurant condones.... Could have been extended in this one instance, as an exception.

Then a posting could be put on all the menus explaining that no meat in any way, shape or form is allowed in the restaurant... so that "unfortunate incidents" like these would never happen again.

Would have been a nice thing to do and would have spared everyone some grief.

[ronnie_suburban]

No, because your position is that bringing the food into the restaurant at all is rude. We have to ascertain the truth of that theory before moving on to the heating-up question, which is admittedly trickier.

I agree with that particular position...I'm going to take several large steps back and say that I think Ms. Graham was out of line for bringing (any) outside food into the restaurant. Vegetarianism and/or heating aside, is it really okay for a customer to bring outside food into (another) restaurant? If I were the restaurant owner in question, I think I'd be miffed by it. Of course, I can't say for sure that I'd forbid it either.

Anyway, to me, that's the essence of the original story and it's why I was so incensed by it...although I am enjoying this thread thoroughly.

=R=

In general I agree with this, but I find baby food the exception, should we ban baby bottles and breast milk as well?

As a mother with young children who frequents restaurants quite a bit, I have had jarred food in my bag 'just in case' every time I went out, though I rarely used it I felt better knowing that if my baby didn't like what the restaurant had to offer or if I didn't think there was anything appropriate I could use my jar.

Practically speaking, I actually agree. I should have said that I was speaking in general terms, because if I were the owner of a (non-vegetarian) restaurant, this is where I'd draw the line and say "okay". That said, in this case it still would have been much ado about nothing IMO if Ms. Graham had been respectful of the proprietor.

It is what happened after that I feel she made the mistake, once realizing that she had a meat product that restaurant would not allow she should have tried to find somethingelse for the baby to eat instead of making the fuss about it. I am sure the restaurant would ahve been more then happy to help her find something on the menu (or even off the menu) for the baby to eat. Even having a bad day does not excuse her behavior.

On this, I absolutely agree. In this case, because it was a baby, it wasn't the initial conflict that irked me as much as how the customer handled it. I still do not understand the origin of her sense of entitlement over this issue.

=R=