New York bagels? Feh

[slkinsey]

Am I the only one who has ever eaten a bagel from Lenny's? I really do think they're way better -- i.e., denser, chewier -- than H&H.

[Fat Guy]

Am I the only one who has ever eaten a bagel from Lenny's?

Haven't you noticed you're always the only person in the store?

[Fat Guy]

I've got to say, I think the water argument is most likely nonsense. It's too convenient an explanation, and don't Brooklyn, Long Island, Westchester, and North Jersey all get their water from different sources anyway?

[bloviatrix]

Am I the only one who has ever eaten a bagel from Lenny's?  I really do think they're way better -- i.e., denser, chewier -- than H&H.

Since I have nothing planned for tomorrow, I'll think I'll do a bagel taste test (ok, so I need to get a life). I'll pick up plain bagels from Columbia bagels (is that the name of the one on 110th and B'way?- I know Zabars gets theirs there), Lenny's and H&H. Then I'll try all three and report back.

[docsconz]

Am I the only one who has ever eaten a bagel from Lenny's?  I really do think they're way better -- i.e., denser, chewier -- than H&H.

Since I have nothing planned for tomorrow, I'll think I'll do a bagel taste test (ok, so I need to get a life). I'll pick up plain bagels from Columbia bagels (is that the name of the one on 110th and B'way?- I know Zabars gets theirs there), Lenny's and H&H. Then I'll try all three and report back.

They need to be equally fresh for it to be a fair comparison. There is nothing like a bagel fresh from the oven.

[SteveW]

I've got to say, I think the water argument is most likely nonsense. It's too convenient an explanation, and don't Brooklyn, Long Island, Westchester, and North Jersey all get their water from different sources anyway?

I'm also suspicious, but this argument is also frequently made here in Montreal. With these people saying, Montreal bagels can't be duplicated outside Montreal because we have the perfect water for making bagels.

-------------

Steve

[bloviatrix]

Am I the only one who has ever eaten a bagel from Lenny's?  I really do think they're way better -- i.e., denser, chewier -- than H&H.

Since I have nothing planned for tomorrow, I'll think I'll do a bagel taste test (ok, so I need to get a life). I'll pick up plain bagels from Columbia bagels (is that the name of the one on 110th and B'way?- I know Zabars gets theirs there), Lenny's and H&H. Then I'll try all three and report back.

They need to be equally fresh for it to be a fair comparison. There is nothing like a bagel fresh from the oven.

Does Lenny's make their bagels on site? I know for sure the other 2 do.

Although I would ideally like to walk from H&H to Columbia, for the sake of freshness, I will take the subway from 79th to 110th. I'm going to walk down the 12 blocks to Lenny's. I've enlisted my husband to help me do a blind tasting. Once I take measurements - size and weight, he'll label each and I'll taste.

I was thinking of doing this in the afternoon (my turn to move the car), if anyone's interested in this journey, pm me.

Edited August 4, 2003 by bloviatrix (log)

[alacarte]

...NY water has high mineral content compared to most areas...

Actually, the exact opposite it correct. NYC has some of the softest water in the US.

OK, I get 10 demerits for lousy reportage. Thanks for the fact checking!

[menton1]

I anxiously await those taste-test results-- But do we agree that a smaller, denser bagel is more desirable? Most of the bagel shops around make these giant "Pillow" bagels, probably close to 6 oz. each! Size does not matter with bagels!! I would like to try Lenny's in the near future.

P.S. Do not agree about NJ Bagels-- they have the same proliferation of giant, soft, airy bagels, lacking in flavor; same as in NYC.

[slkinsey]

Does Lenny's make their bagels on site?  I know for sure the other 2 do.

Yes, they make them on site AFAIK.

[bloviatrix]

I realize that taste is subjective, but I tried to make this experiment as objective as possible. I should mention upfront, that before today I had always preferred H&H. I have eaten Columbia's bagels in the past but had never tried Lenny's. Here are my findings:

H&H

weight: 4.2 oz/115 gr

dimensions: 3.5 x 4.25 x 2.5

color: blond

age at time of purchase: approximately 30 minutes

price: .95

Columbia

weight: 4.45 oz/124 gr

dimensions: 4 x 4.5 x 2

color: toasted golden

age at time of purchase: approximately 30 minutes

price: .60

Lenny's

weight: 4.8 oz/135 gr

dimensions: 4 x 4.5 x 1.75

color: pale blond

age at time of purchase: made this morning

price: .60

In regard to the age of the bagels, I got to H&H at 1:10, took the subway uptown and got the Columbia bagel at 1:20, and walked down to Lenny's where I got that bagel at 1:35 (after standing on line for 5 minutes). At each place I asked how old the bagels were.

I conducted the taste portion of the test blind. My husband handed me pieces of each bagel. Here are my tasing notes:

Bagel 1: Crust gave a toasty taste. Bagel was nicely chewy. No finish.

Bagel 2: Nice, yeasty smell but no discernable flavor. Nicely chewy.

Bagel 3: Very gummy. Initially picked up a peppery flavor, but quite sweet on the finish. This had the most overall flavor, but it wasn't particularly good. (note: my husband said he picked up a cornmeal flavor)

My overall preference for the bagels was 1, 2, and then 3 as a distant runner-up. I think number 1 would be best for eating on its own, but number 2 would most likely be the ideal bagel as a delivery system for cream cheese and lox.

In order, here are my preferences:

1) Columbia

2) H & H

3) Lenny's

My husband who also tasted each (but not blind) also ranked them in the same order.

[menton1]

Was in NY on Saturday morning and stopped in to Healthy Bagel, 2nd Avenue between 71-72 sts. Wonderful Whole wheat bagels, dense, chewy, no air. Just the way I like them. Actually a large hole in the middle, too. Anyone been here and sampled other flavors?

[PDC]

Just to throw a curveball in here...some of the best Montreal-style bagels I ever had were bought from a shop (with wood-burning oven) in the Byward Market building in Ottawa. Better than just about anywhere in Montreal, save Beauty's (who probably get theirs from St. Viateur, I would imagine).

As for NY, I simply can't get a good bagel within easy walking distance of my job in midtown. Some okayish, decent ones but nothing high-end. I wonder if the tourists buy those giant fluffy things from the street carts on 6th ave between Rock Center and Times Square and think they're getting a "real New York bagel". It truly gives one pause.

[Alex]

Hello, everyone. This is my first post at eGullet. Glad to be here.

As a transplanted NYer who has been living in Michigan for quite some time now (and who still fondly remembers H & H), I homed right in on this thread. I still get a kick out of how passionate many people (including me) get about bagels.

For about seven years I was the restaurant critic and food writer for arts and entertainment newspapers in Detroit and Grand Rapids. By far the most critical mail I received (in fact, the most mail, period) was in response to a bagel taste-off that I organized.

The criteria, much like bloviatrix's, were taste/smell, texture, and appearance. The panel included a local rabbi, a very experienced Jewish baker, a CIA grad who worked in a bagel shop in The Bronx as a teenager, and an acquaintance who grew up a few blocks from me in Queens. All the bagels were fresh that morning and were tasted blind. To my delight, the bagel from my favorite shop -- the only one approximating a NY bagel -- finished a clear first. Predictably, they're no longer in business.

Most of the critical letters said that native Chicagoans didn't care for chewy bagels (if I remember correctly, they preferred big and squishy) and accused me of being a NYC chauvinist. Guilty as charged, I guess.

[SteveW]

Just to throw a curveball in here...some of the best Montreal-style bagels I ever had were bought from a shop (with wood-burning oven) in the Byward Market building in Ottawa.  Better than just about anywhere in Montreal, save Beauty's (who probably get theirs from St. Viateur, I would imagine).

As for NY, I simply can't get a good bagel within easy walking distance of my job in midtown.  Some okayish, decent ones but nothing high-end.  I wonder if the tourists buy those giant fluffy things from the street carts on 6th ave between Rock Center and Times Square and think they're getting a "real New York bagel".  It truly gives one pause.

Just to confirm. Beauty's gets all their bagels from St. Viateur. I would like to know the name of the Ottawa bagel shop in the Byward Market, making Montreal bagels.

-------------

Steve

[PDC]

It's in the main market building that has the various food stalls and shops downstairs and the local art exhibits upstairs. The name escaped me, but I googled it and came up with this from

http://www.bywardmarketsquare.com/merchants/index.htm

CONTINENTAL BAGEL

Tel: (613) 789-5262

Traditional Montreal Style Bagel, Hand rolled, Boiled, then Baked in a Wood-Burning oven 20 Varieties

I'm about 90% sure this is it.

[alacarte]

welcome Alex!

NY chauvinists always are greeted with open arms here.

[cakewalk]

I suppose many people think a larger bagel is a better bagel.  Some are so big you could use them as pillows. 

NY bagels :: Montreal bagels

apples :: oranges

I mean really.

Those two hallmarks of NYC eats -- bagels and pizza -- will never be what they once were. Alas. But we soldier on.

[jkirsch]

Please...

OK lets end the discussion here.

Anywhere outside Montreal or NYC the quality of bagels sucks!

There's nothing unique or compelling about a "great" NYC bagel or a "great" bagel from Montreal that seprates them (see above).

-Quebec American

[blatantdream]

Now, if we're comparing best to best they are definitely two different species of bagel. The Montreal bagel is smaller, has an eggy dough, is boiled in a honey-water solution, and is baked in a wood-fired brick oven. The New York bagel -- even a small one -- is larger, denser, not eggy at all, and is invariably made in a gas or electric oven at a lower temperature.

As between the two, however, I find it hard to believe an educated foodie with no prior exposure to either would ever choose the New York bagel.

I totally disagree. I just went up to Montreal recently and tried their bagels. Boy was I disappointed. Now I read this and see why. "Honey-water solution" and "eggy," that sounds so disgusting. Although Montreal Bagels are pretty good, they're not as good as it's hyped up to be. I normally measure how good a bagel is by the amount I am able to eat. I weigh only 92lbs and I can eat 8 Kossar's bialys in one sitting. I can eat 4 H&H bagels in one sitting and I can only eat 1 Montreal Bagel in one sitting. I normally like to eat it plain, preferable still hot. I don't think anyone can compare the Montreal Bagel to the NY Bagel because they are totally different but everyone has their preferences.

[Willobie]

Of course, this is all mental masturbation, because for most people, top notch New York and Montreal bagels are unobtanium. The same for excellent Pastrami and montreal smoke meat.

←

Montreal Smoked Meat

Montreal has a flourishing Jewish community (vide The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz). Consequently it has fine Jewish bakeries and bagel emporia, but it's glory is the SMOKED MEAT SANDWICH.

As a student in Montreal in the middle fifties, friends quickly introduced me to the wonders of Ben's Delicatessen on Maisonneuve near the McGill campus. A smoked meat sandwich on deli rye with double mustard and a pickle was 35 cents in 1954-55. Like all Jewish sandwiches it was piled high in the middle (about three inches thick). It was ambrosia. Ben's was very fine, but then I discovered Dunn's on St.Catherine St. West and fancied that it's meat was a little jucier. Then an Irish-Cuban friend taught me that one could order the sandwich lean, medium, or fat and I discovered that fat was almost a religious experience. On cold winter nights, before pizza delivery had been invented, we could call up Dunn's and order a sack of sandwiches (35 cents each) and fries. The cashier at Dunn's would summon a cab from the rank out front and the cabbie would pay for the food and deliver it. We paid the food tab, the meter, and a tip.

Smoked meat is what in other countries pastrami would aspire to be. It is my experience that Canadian beef is superior to U.S. beef and that kosher butchers use the finest (i.e., the fattest, best marbled) beef.

After listening to me brag about Montreal smoked meat for several years, my German-born wife, who knows a thing or two about schinken and speck, finally got to Montreal and we checked in to Ben's for a sandwich. She was very impressed, but the young waiter didn't know what I meant by a fat smoked meat. The next day we went to Dunn's, which was better. We stayed a week and I could not drag my wife away from Dunn's for even one lunch. That was over ten years ago, and we just got back to Montreal this spring of 2000.

Dunn's was gone, as were two of the major downtown department stores (Eaton's and Simpsons had been turned into malls of a sort). Reuben's deli near where Dunn's would have been served a decent smoked meat sandwich, but it was too lean to be really succulent.

Then we heard about Schwartz's on St. Laurence St. It had always been there, but I had never discovered it. It is a small kosher restaurant (i.e., no Reubens) on what used to be a tough street, the dividing line between the English west Montreal and the French east Montreal. The waiters looked like the Ben's waiters of old, with long white aprons. The one who took our order said the magic words that assured us that we were in for a real treat. He asked: "How would you like your smoked meat?". My wife answered, "medium" and I -- with a big grin on my face -- rejoiced to say, "fat". After I finished, I said: "I can die now." And meant it.

Schwartzs Montreal Hebrew Delicatessen

"Original World Famous Smoked Meat"

3895 Saint Laurent

Montreal, QC

Phone: (514) 842-4813

[lambretta76]

I used to think that Montreal bagels were far inferior to the NY bagel. I mean, why should "plain" have sesame seeds all over it. Had one hot out of the wood-fired oven at St. Viateur, and then one smeared with cream cheese and lox at Beauty's. Both were flavorless and, well, absolute crap.

Spring forward two years. I decided in fairness to give Fairmount a try. DAMN! The absolute best bagel I've had - their "tout garni", our equivalent of an everything bagel, but with the addition of caraway seeds, was out of this world. The whole-grain bagel was also outstanding. I'm an everything bagel fiend, and as such, didn't try their "plain" bagel, but I imagine it is far superior to that at SV.

So, the ball is now in NYC's court - now I have to find a NY bagel that can up the ante for Fairmount. (Especially since it'd be a lot closer to home.)

[CaliPoutine]

I'm heading to NYC next month and I want to load up my suitcase with bagels to bring home.

Where should I go? Any new places?

[slkinsey]

Get the mini-bagels at Absolute on Broadway and 107th Street.

[weinoo]

And, interestingly enough, the mini bagels at Russ & Daughters (from a secret source) are good as well. I won't mention that you might even like the whitefish salad.