The Great Pastrami & Smoked Meat Experiment

jhlurie · October 12, 2003

Personally, I have a hard time justifying steaming the meat if beforehand it's beautifully rich and succulent. But then again, I suppose it's not pastrami until it's steamed.

"Sold out", dude. You did read the "sold out" part. :biggrin: Obviously Fowke is doing something right.

To be honest I love Corned Beef too. But that Pastrami looks awesome.

mb7o · October 12, 2003

What? Chef Fowke sold out? Is he selling 'roastbeef' from Arby's as Pastrami?

I'll have to consider this as a destination upon next visiting Vancouver. Maybe a comparison with some other place--Siegal's claims to have Montreal Smoked Meat which I've never gotten to. (Meat + bagel = disconcordant.)

(scopra: check out the second threadin the 'tips and techniques' forum.)

scopra · October 12, 2003

Thanks to mb7o for the link to photo posting thread. While this seems a little complicated for the average cook to figure out, I will give it a try when I have some pastrami porn worth sharing.

Chef Fowke · October 13, 2003

Indeed, this is great stuff. Do you like the corned beef better before or after steaming?
Personally, I have a hard time justifying steaming the meat if beforehand it's beautifully rich and succulent. But then again, I suppose it's not pastrami until it's steamed.

I can give you a quick and dirty answer....

I prefer corned beef (just smoked brisket) better if I am eating it as a main course (as part of a mixed grill with Salt Spring Island lamb, veal kidneys, Provimi veal liver and Marquez sausage) with some sauerkraut, roasted Dijon-thyme fingering potatoes, etc on a hot summers day in the backyard with a bucket of Kronbergs.

In a sandwich the pastrami wins. It is partly a textural thing. The pastrami melding with the mustard and rye bread is a perfect combination. All the flavours round (average) out into one of the great flavours on this earth.

Chef Fowke · October 13, 2003

Chef Fowke,
Incredible tutorial. If you could please explain the importance, and procedure for "weighting down" the pastrami after smoking.
As a second note, my senses tell me, that after steaming, some if not most of the smoke flavor would be negated.
Do you find this to be true?
woodburner

I have never even thought about why I weigh down food after I have cured/smoked it. I just always have. Smoked salmon, gravalax, cured duck are all finished by applying weight to them for 24 hours...

I am going to make an educated guess at the reason for this technique. I imagine it is to press down any swelling, at the molecular level, of the cells in the protein. A lot of osmosis and reverse osmosis occurs when you are curing a protein and this leads to excess, unwanted moisture diluting the final product.

And you are right, the smoke flavour is reduced after steaming, but the meat was smoked for eight hours! The flavour remaining was in the right balance for the pastrami.

The weight would also cause friction, again at the molecular level that would help in the 'cooking' (curing) of the meat.

I have tried to slice a piece of gravalax that was improperly cured and it was slightly mushy and soggy. I also tried my first pastrami this year right out of the steamer and it was full of water. After it sat overnight (under weight) it was firm and moist. With the excess water removed the fat content was the primary moisture in the meat and it produced a very appealing textural experience in the mouth.

Barb · October 13, 2003

Bad news about Katzenjammer's Deli Chef Fowke. I was in London for Thanksgiving dinner last night so tried to pick up some of their mustard for your great experiment. Their neon sign is dark, the doors are locked, the place is empty and their phone is out of service. Looks like they went out of business.

Chef Fowke · October 14, 2003

This just proves that we all need to get out and eat more pastrami before this dying art is completely gone!

tsquare · October 16, 2003

A very reliable source contacted me today and told me that he knows where the Pastrami at Katz Deli in NYC is made. Rumor has it that it is located in Seattle!
I am packing up the wife and heading down on Tuesday to investigate....

What was the result of this investigation? Am I living close to the source, yet in a region that claims to have no decent deli food? I had a nice pastrami sandwich at Persimmon, in Seattle, recently - even though they put mayo on it!!!

mb7o · October 17, 2003

Hmmm... I thought I read somewhere that Glick and Froyd were starting to have their pastrami or mabye corned made elsewhere, but their web site says it's local (Seattle).

Edited October 17, 2003 by mb7o (log)

Chef Fowke · October 17, 2003

A very reliable source contacted me today and told me that he knows where the Pastrami at Katz Deli in NYC is made. Rumor has it that it is located in Seattle!
I am packing up the wife and heading down on Tuesday to investigate....
What was the result of this investigation? Am I living close to the source, yet in a region that claims to have no decent deli food? I had a nice pastrami sandwich at Persimmon, in Seattle, recently - even though they put mayo on it!!!

three dozen oyster, local brewed beer...apps at Brooklyn, a martini at Oceanaire, dinner at the Palace Kitchen....

Oh yeah, I went to Seattle for a reason. I missed the tour of the pastrami shop, maybe Irwin can help us with this topic.

wesza · October 19, 2003

A very reliable source contacted me today and told me that he knows where the Pastrami at Katz Deli in NYC is made. Rumor has it that it is located in Seattle!
I am packing up the wife and heading down on Tuesday to investigate....
What was the result of this investigation? Am I living close to the source, yet in a region that claims to have no decent deli food? I had a nice pastrami sandwich at Persimmon, in Seattle, recently - even though they put mayo on it!!!
three dozen oyster, local brewed beer...apps at Brooklyn, a martini at Oceanaire, dinner at the Palace Kitchen....
Oh yeah, I went to Seattle for a reason. I missed the tour of the pastrami shop, maybe Irwin can help us with this topic.

Chef Fowke: As per your request on eGullet, I have over reacted as usual.

My first stop was for a Pastrami S/W at the Kosher Deli/Restaurant in Renton.

I ordered a "Pastrami", on Rye.

Waitress asked if I wanted, "Mayonasse". after the double take, my responce was "Hot Pastrami", with Mayo? Her reply, didn't know you wanted it hot? Well I overcame my shudder, and politely requested the sandwich be served hot, without lettuce [just in case] or mayo.

Sandwich came, microwaved together with the bread, salty, over nuked and not very good. My co-diner had ordered a Kosher Hamburger, it was also Salty, and served with Frozen French Fries and non-descript pickle slice.

Nex stop. "Roxy's" on 1st in Pioneer Square. The Asian Food looked pretty good. Took home the Pastrami.

Next stop, "Roxy's", at 24th Ave and 80th Street. Located in,"Cascioppo Brothers Italian Meat Market" called 'Roxy's Deli @ CasCioppo's". Once I arrived I order a, "Pastrami S/W with Mustard" and a NY Potato Knish to go. My knish was "microwaved". The Pastrami was pre-sliced by Machine, taken from a refrigerated deli display case, weighed, and them dumped on a Hot Griddle, sprayed with water, covered and allow to warm up. The Bread, was a Questionable, light brown covered Rye, definately not jewish style, coated generously with a Gludens clone mustard.

To add to this culinary mystery my Charge card receipt was from "P@G Meats Corperation", located at 1233 NW Norgross Way, Seattle, Wa. 9817

Nothing listed in the phone book for P&G Meats, or Glick @ Froyd. I had heard that, 'Cascioppo', had outgrown the capacity at that location since they manufacturer Seattle best Italian Pork or Chicken Sausages. They also make quite good Landjaegen and Beef Jerky, both listed on the internet site.

Pastrami is advertised as being processed from a "Whole Brisket". averaging about 3 Pounds each. Even wierder the say that their ,"Corned Beef", is from the "Bottom Plate", that a first for Corned Beef.

Unless they have given up the ghost, "Katz" has always had their Pastrami made from Packers Grade, Choice, "Navel Plates", only. No other cut has all the characteristics of a Katz Sandwich. I've been to the factory that made the Pastrami, prior to exporting it into Hong Kong with my supplier and the owner of Bens Deli, that was located for years down the block from Katz who also purchased from them.

Just to make this comparrison on the up and up, I have arranged with my friend who lives close to Katz's to buy and ship via Federal Express, packed in Ice Paks 2 of Katzs Pastrami Sandwiches, purchesed over the counter. I've saved 1/2 of the 2 sandwiches bought yesterday in the cold part of my refrigerator in a sealed package for comparing both products at room temperature.

After i've got my Katz i'll attempt a objective comparison. Preferring to wait for my opinion.

Irwin

Chef Fowke · October 19, 2003

Very, very cool! Give me a call and I will try to drive down!

wesza · October 19, 2003

Very, very cool! Give me a call and I will try to drive down!

Chef Fowke: OOOOOP'S. "Brian", sorry it's too late. Tanya, Jerry and I have just demolished the Sandwiches fromm"Katz's", while picking at the 2 [1/2 ]S/W we saved from Roxy's. My friend bought them from Katz early at lunch time, brought then directly to federal express for First Available Fleight to Seattle. He simply placed them as wrapped from Katz, into a Parcel and Shipped. We picked them up at the Will Call counter in Seattle. It was almost like they were still warm.

The truth is after opening the parcel and breathing in the aroma, there was no way I would have been able to wait for anyone to arrive, it demanded immediate devestation. Anyway you've been eating too much Pastrami, and i've spent too much time returning again and again to look at your photos to have self control when faced with the real thing.

Actually I was posting on the board typing at my slow, somulent speed after eating so much good stuffs. During the period that you responded.

Since you were viewed on the FOOD Network Today as per the earlier "eGullet Board Posting" with Smoked Sockeye Salmon I took the opportunity to suggest a Challenging project for you as a one-up that the results would be easy to arrive in Seattle. Check the board.

I'll post from my notes the comparisons tommorow. My Strawberry Cheesecake and Cafe DuMonde French Market Coffee are waiting.

Irwin

Chef Fowke · October 20, 2003

Just south of us in Oregon is a cheese company that makes extraordinary mustard. I tried it today with the pastrami and it was outstanding! I need to go back, soon, and try some other condiments (and the cheese was good too!).

wesza · October 21, 2003

Very, very cool! Give me a call and I will try to drive down!
Chef Fowke: OOOOOP'S. "Brian", sorry it's too late. Tanya, Jerry and I have just demolished the Sandwiches fromm"Katz's", while picking at the 2 [1/2 ]S/W we saved from Roxy's. My friend bought them from Katz early at lunch time, brought then directly to federal express for First Available Fleight to Seattle. He simply placed them as wrapped from Katz, into a Parcel and Shipped. We picked them up at the Will Call counter in Seattle. It was almost like they were still warm.
The truth is after opening the parcel and breathing in the aroma, there was no way I would have been able to wait for anyone to arrive, it demanded immediate devestation. Anyway you've been eating too much Pastrami, and i've spent too much time returning again and again to look at your photos to have self control when faced with the real thing.
Actually I was posting on the board typing at my slow, somulent speed after eating so much good stuffs. During the period that you responded.
Since you were viewed on the FOOD Network Today as per the earlier "eGullet Board Posting" with Smoked Sockeye Salmon I took the opportunity to suggest a Challenging project for you as a one-up that the results would be easy to arrive in Seattle. Check the board.
I'll post from my notes the comparisons tommorow. My Strawberry Cheesecake and Cafe DuMonde French Market Coffee are waiting.
Irwin

Sorry, Tthat i've delayed my posting regarding the Patrami exported from Seattle to Katz Deli, in NYC. After checking the posted website the fact that the Seattle, Pastrami was prepared from Brisket seemed questionable.

I'm pleased to report that, "Katz Pastrami", was from Navel Plate, not Brisket. Still even after being shipped from NYC, quite delicious, with the requisite Thum, or Taste that only comes from the Plate. It was leaner then I anticipated. The Colligen in the Fat, was broken down, with delicious fatty tenderness. Not heavilly spiced on the exterior, due in part to being sliced, right from the Counter Steamer. Still better then anything i've had anywhere but from NYC. This includes the Sattilite's in Las Vegas of NYC Deli's.

The SEattle Made Pastrami, was surprising, even though made from the Brisket, it was aggresively spiced on the exterior, nicly smoked thru, with the Collegin being broken down. It was Saltier then expected, especially since it was machine sliced, standing refrigerated in the deli case, not covered, just stacked. The way, "Roxy", heated the serving was the first time i've ever seen Pastrami, heated and served in this manner. Simply weighed for portion size, them dumped onto the hot griddle, where Hambergers, and Bacon are grilled. Then sprayed with water from a spray bottle, then covered, just long enough to slightly warm and steam. Thrown into a wierd bread, with zero crust exterior, smeared with a gludens clone mustard, sliced and served with a purportly home made sour pickle, that sucked.

The Pastrami was the best tasting i've eaten locally in my 15 years in Seattle, that was surprising since it tasted better then it looked, especially the way it was served. I'll go back, try to buy a piece, and steam in a wooden basket at home to see how it tastes. I'm hoping for the best as when picked on without the mustard or bread it tasted pretty good.

Now the reason for my delay ! I purchased from Sams Club a 1 pound package of: "Bests Kosher", Sliced Lean Beef Pastrami, Coated with Flavoring and Carmel Color. In smaller print: Cured with Water, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Salt, Sugar, Sodium Erythorbate, Natural Flavorings, Sodium Nitrate. Says: Fully Cooked, and Kosher Never Tasted So Good.

Nothing mentioned about, "Smoking", it's very thinly sliced in a bunched package. I'll try it tommorow as after trying 2 not bag, and great Pastrami's i'll give it a extra day for my enjoying the glow.

Chef Fowke: In most of the Deli operations, outside of the States, customers are generally offered a choice of mustards. onr being a deli type, the other one made on premise from a Mustard Powder, mixed most often with beer, for a stronger mustard taste. In Hong Kong, England and Japan the Hotter Mustard was more popular.

Irwin

ronnie_suburban · October 21, 2003

Now the reason for my delay ! I purchased from Sams Club a 1 pound package of: "Bests Kosher", Sliced Lean Beef Pastrami, Coated with Flavoring and Carmel Color. In smaller print: Cured with Water, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Salt, Sugar, Sodium Erythorbate, Natural Flavorings, Sodium Nitrate. Says: Fully Cooked, and Kosher Never Tasted So Good.

To me, this product doesn't taste even remotely like pastrami. In fact, I thought it was barely pastrami-esque. Too bad too because I do enjoy many other Best Kosher products, but this really pales. Irwin, I'll be curious to get your take on it. I think you're about to take a significant step backwards in satisfaction.

=R=

wesza · October 21, 2003

Now the reason for my delay ! I purchased from Sams Club a 1 pound package of: "Bests Kosher", Sliced Lean Beef Pastrami, Coated with Flavoring and Carmel Color. In smaller print: Cured with Water, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Salt, Sugar, Sodium Erythorbate, Natural Flavorings, Sodium Nitrate. Says: Fully Cooked, and Kosher Never Tasted So Good.
To me, this product doesn't taste even remotely like pastrami. In fact, I thought it was barely pastrami-esque. Too bad too because I do enjoy many other Best Kosher products, but this really pales. Irwin, I'll be curious to get your take on it. I think you're about to take a significant step backwards in satisfaction.
=R=

Ronnie: That's why i'm giving it the extra day. I require all the residual tastes of my Katzs, Pastrami to continue to glow, I touched, looked and copied off the package, but wasn't yet able to bring myself to actually eat it, Best's is mostly okay. I hope.

Irwin

Chef Fowke · October 21, 2003

Apples to oranges. It is hard to rate pastrami unless it is presented in the same manner. I do not, generally, like hotdogs...but whenever I am in Australia I eat dozens of them because of the spicy mustard.

We need to keep this thread pure; and I was the first to deviate on the different mustards.

The pastrami needs to be compared and contrasted using simple criteria ---> light rye, deli mustard and 14oz of hand cut pastrami (simply steamed or ‘wet held’).

Chef Fowke · October 21, 2003

And if we are going to taste pastrami with mustard, my favorite is Dijon from William Sonoma. :wub:

Chef Fowke · October 21, 2003

...and a true kosher pickle is a must!

wesza · October 23, 2003

And if we are going to taste pastrami with mustard, my favorite is Dijon from William Sonoma.

Chef Fowke: The "Dijon", type Mustards are rarely ever served with Pastrami. The main reason is that in the better places serving "Pastrami Sandwiches", the preferred Mustard Codiment is a Brown Mustard Seed, NYC Deli Type Mustard. The more traditional reason is the Dijon Mustards aren't Kosher Certified, due to the Wine Content not being Kosher. There may be some types of Dijon, that are in fact prepared especially for Kosher Consumption but i'm not aware of any being sold.

Now for my final report on the Bests Kosher Pastrami and the Seattle made , Glick & Ffloyd served at the Roxy Deli.

I initally tried 1/2 the package [1 pound pk.] of the Best kosher on Tuesday. It was packaged Cut very Thin in a clump, piled up together. I attemped to seperate the slices to stack into my Sandwich individually. This was difficult, So I divided the package into 2 sections, and Microwaved on Thaw Setting just long enough to warm the pastrami. Then placed it on a larke platter, to seperate the slices spread out. Had a steamer going, producing steam. Placed the platter into the steam covered for 2 minutes. Removed from Steam. The Pastrami, was already beginning to curl from the short time under steam. [bad Sign]. Stacked the Pastrami, onto a Slice of Seeded, NY Type Kosher Rye Bread. Covered top slice with Hebrew National Deli Mustard and made my Sandwich.

The Pastrami Sandwich, was saltier then I enjoy it, very dark color, peppery, with a funny artificial smoked taste.

Put the other 1/2 away to try different preperation on Wednesday. Took Pastrami out of Refrigerator early enough so it would be at room temperature, to seperate slices. Laid out Slices on Plate, warmed by Zapping in Microwave with short bursts just enough to warm up. Put into Sandwich. Tasted a little better, salty but still not like Pastrami. Won't bother buying again.

The Roxy Pastrami in both these tests , prepared the same way was much better, stood up well and tasted like Pastrami. Will try to buy whole piece in future, steam and cut myself. But don't belive they have ever been sent to Katz's. At least the 'Market Corned Beef Briskets" made in Seattle's, up to snuff.

Irwin

woodburner · October 24, 2003

Chef Fowke,
Incredible tutorial. If you could please explain the importance, and procedure for "weighting down" the pastrami after smoking.
woodburner
Chef Folke:
I have never even thought about why I weigh down food after I have cured/smoked it.

Thank You Chef.

Now that I have re-read all of your posts I am going to give your procedure an all-systems go, and proof it.

If you could just be a little more precise on the weighting down.

What did you use to put your pastrami under pressure? :wacko:

Since beef plate is almost impossible for me to find, I will be using whole brisket, for my go ahead.

woodburner

bloviatrix · October 24, 2003

And if we are going to taste pastrami with mustard, my favorite is Dijon from William Sonoma.
Chef Fowke: The "Dijon", type Mustards are rarely ever served with Pastrami. The main reason is that in the better places serving "Pastrami Sandwiches", the preferred Mustard Codiment is a Brown Mustard Seed, NYC Deli Type Mustard. The more traditional reason is the Dijon Mustards aren't Kosher Certified, due to the Wine Content not being Kosher. There may be some types of Dijon, that are in fact prepared especially for Kosher Consumption but i'm not aware of any being sold.

Irwin, kosher dijon is available. I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it's imported from France. But dijon has no business on a pastrami sandwich. Only grainy brown will do.

As an aside, next week is Kosherfest, which is the big kosher food show at the Javits Center in NY. It's amazing how many products are available these days. I plan on attending and eating my way through. :laugh:

Edited October 24, 2003 by bloviatrix (log)

Pan · October 24, 2003

As an aside, next week is Kosherfest, which is the big kosher food show at the Javits Center in NY. It's amazing how many products are available these days. I plan on attending and eating my way through.

I hope to read a report by you, and it strikes me that this would be a good Daily Gullet topic if the administrators would like to feature it.

Chef Fowke · October 26, 2003

And if we are going to taste pastrami with mustard, my favorite is Dijon from William Sonoma.
Chef Fowke: The "Dijon", type Mustards are rarely ever served with Pastrami. The main reason is that in the better places serving "Pastrami Sandwiches", the preferred Mustard Codiment is a Brown Mustard Seed, NYC Deli Type Mustard. The more traditional reason is the Dijon Mustards aren't Kosher Certified, due to the Wine Content not being Kosher. There may be some types of Dijon, that are in fact prepared especially for Kosher Consumption but i'm not aware of any being sold.
Irwin, kosher dijon is available. I can't remember the brand off the top of my head, but it's imported from France. But dijon has no business on a pastrami sandwich. Only grainy brown will do.
As an aside, next week is Kosherfest, which is the big kosher food show at the Javits Center in NY. It's amazing how many products are available these days. I plan on attending and eating my way through.

It may not be 'kosher' but I love to eat pastrami with Dijon...call me crazy.

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