The Great Pastrami & Smoked Meat Experiment

[Fat Guy]

Isn't there supposed to be garlic involved somewhere along the line in the creation of pastrami? Or am I confused on that point?

I used whole garlic in the wet brine. I have read recipes that call for the meat being rubbed with whole garlic before the crust is applies and smoked.

My mistake. I was looking at the wrong ingredients list. You've definitely got the garlic situation covered.

[Kimchi]

Just read through this whole thread. This is all very inspiring to me.

All I can say is, holy fowke.

[Chef Fowke]

I had a little taste when it came out of the smoker.....

Full photos and tasting notes on Monday night: midnight pacific standard time!

[Chef Fowke]

Three weeks of work and the meat is ready. The colour and fat content were absolutely amazing. The flavour was a little smokier then I remember the meat being at Schwartz’s but definitely not unappealing and I probably would give this meat a higher grade (in my humble opion) then the Schwartz’s meat because of it.

The project was a success. I worked online with the Sous Chefs (annual night out for the Chef de Parties so the Sous Chefs had to cook) tonight and I steamed off 5lbs of pastrami for there dinner at midnight. Four of us ate five pounds of smoked meats, two loaves of Canadian rye bread, 1/2 a bottle of deli mustard and a little beer!

The cooking technique for this project was very simple. The difficulty in making GREAT smoked meat/pastrami is the time and space needed. I could never offer this product at this quality in my restaurant (that’s not to say we do not use the best....) The absolute necessity to provide a completely sterile environment for the meat during curing was a huge expense. Then letting the inventory age for a minimum of three weeks taking up a whole 3 foot by 3-foot shelf is very expensive for any busy restaurant.

I must reiterate, and I have a sandwich wrapped in my fridge right now (that will probably be eaten before I post this thread) this pastrami was the best I have ever tried.

When I figure out the cost it is astronomical. A $3.85/lbs piece of raw meat ended up costing $13.86 a pound when you take into account 15% shrinkage while brining/smoking, $11.25 for the brine/sat peter, $14.84 for the smoking chips, storage, labour, electricity, trim, etc. If a restaurant had a food cost of 33% (very high) that one-pound sandwich (using this recipe) sold at Kratz would cost the customer in excess of $42.

It has become clear why most North American delis purchase their pastrami rather then produce it in-house. It is also clear why the dry brining process is more popular then the wet-brine.

We will start dry brining the plate/navel this week and update this thread with the results soon.

The meat just out of the steamer (three hours)

Dinner for the Sous Chefs (Sous Chefs drinking beer? Unheard of!)

This was the best night, in five years, working at Joe's. Look at all the kitchen managers and no employees. It was absolute kaos! The food has never looked better and the fun factor was huge.

(just bragging...Mondavi was in this week and I spent a couple of hours with him. It looks like he was admiring the smoked meat, but he wasn't)

Edited September 6, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[Jason Perlow]

You mean $42 Canadian right? 60 percent of that is $25, if you want to conver that to USD, roughly. Rediculous, but certainly not insane for a high end restaurant or even a premium Jewish deli, we're talking a pound of meat here and a ton of labor. I think Katz's in NYC serves you about a half a pound or 3/4 depending on how nice you treat the slicing guys, and they charge like $12 US for it.

[Stone]

Melkor -- I just looked at your brisket pictures. When I've purchased a full brisket (regular, not corned) in cryovac, there seems to be much more fat. Are the corned briskets trimmed at all? Or is your fat hidden on the bottom?

Chef Fowke -- who stabbed that guy in the neck?

Edited September 2, 2003 by Stone (log)

[melkor]

Melkor -- I just looked at your brisket pictures.  When I've purchased a full brisket (regular, not corned) in cryovac, there seems to be much more fat.  Are the corned briskets trimmed at all?  Or is your fat hidden on the bottom?

The picture in this thread of my pastrami is from the brisket flat, the point end has more fat on it.

[Stone]

Do you separate them before smoking?

[Chef Fowke]

Chef Fowke -- who stabbed that guy in the neck?

I had to! He was going for the last piece of smoked meat....

To tell you the truth, that’s how they pull a tooth in the wild wild west of Canada.

Here is a better picture of the meat. You can see the marbling better! The meat was so good!

Edited September 6, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[melkor]

Do you separate them before smoking?

Nope.

These pics CF is posting are going to force me to make another pastrami this week.

[ronnie_suburban]

Wow! That extreme close-up made me feel all funny inside...

Thanks for sharing!

=R=

[jhlurie]

Chef Fowke, as beautiful as those pictures are, you've got to edit them a bit and reduce them. They're too wide! 640x480, or at most 800x600, should fit. It's not really a matter of bandwidth I think, as much as the fact that they are making your wonderful topic here a bit unreadable (they are widening the columns and pushing a lot of your description off the side of the page).

[TrishCT]

Chef Fowke,

That is amazing work!

[Chef Fowke]

Chef Fowke, as beautiful as those pictures are, you've got to edit them a bit and reduce them.  They're too wide!  640x480, or at most 800x600, should fit.  It's not really a matter of bandwidth I think, as much as the fact that they are making your wonderful topic here a bit unreadable (they are widening the columns and pushing a lot of your description off the side of the page).

Sorry, I am working on a 21inch and it looks great. I will edit the pictures in the next 24 hours so they fit better.

I was up most of last night trying to figure out how to upload the pictures to my webspace. I was pleased that I managed that, I didn't even consider the size and formatting of the photos.

[wesza]

Brian: LEAVE IT ALONE !!! That's the Bigggest, bessstest, most DELICIOUS "PASTRAMI" I've ever seem in my life. I just looked at it 'DROOLED and Pretended I could smell it. "That's Pastrami "PORNO". Whenever I need something reminiese about I'd like to be able to return to this piece of ART for soothing my needs. Please treat the NAVEL, with the same photography. You could make copies, and sell them to the real deli's. Irwin

[jhlurie]

Okay... the other way to go about it would be to KEEP the large version around, but link to it instead of using the IMG tags.

Like so:

[URL=http://some web address with your photo.jpg]Click here for beautiful large lovely photo of Prime Pastrami![/URL]

Of course for that (unlike overwriting the actual uploaded file) you will actually have to edit your post, which after 24 hours you need the help of a moderator to do.

I'm on a 19 inch monitor, running at 1152x864, so I can only imagine what its like for someone running at say... 640x480 on a 15 inch screen (that's the minimum ANYONE ever assumes someone is running, and even then its kind of in the "strongly not recommended" column... but 800x600 is not uncommon). The point is not to diminsh your fine work, but to make sure that most people can SEE the continued discussion.

Ideally, you could do both--post the reduced pictures, at say, 640x480 and ALSO link to the ones you have up there now in the same post. It's the most work, but probably worth it.

EDIT - Okay, I just noticed that my last post took us onto a new page, and of course the new page isn't being affected by the large pictures on the last page. Maybe this isn't such a big deal if it only affects one page of the topic. Steven or Jason may have some more useful guidelines.

Edited September 3, 2003 by jhlurie (log)

[Chef Fowke]

hey, I was really impressed that Robert Mondavi was in my restaurant the same day we ate the smoked meat experiment....no one commented! Maybe only I was impressed.

[Fat Guy]

I'm impressed! What did he eat? Did you give him any smoked meat? More importantly, did you convince him to register and post on eGullet?

[Chef Fowke]

I'm impressed! What did he eat? Did you give him any smoked meat? More importantly, did you convince him to register and post on eGullet?

I am such an idiot! We talked about wines....

Why did I forget to talk to him about egullet?

Actually, as a side note a really exciting thing did happen when he was at the Restaurant:

As Robert Mondavi was leaving he came upon our morning pre-shift of all our servers and cooks. At the 15 minute meeting we talk about the specials of the day, up and coming events, VIP's, complaints from the previous shift, etc.

Mr. Mondavi listened in and was really impressed; he became visually pleased and politely interrupted the meeting. He began to talk about the restaurant industry and what differentiated great restaurants from bankrupt restaurants.

The best quote of his 20-minute talk was: 'if you want to be successful in this business you need not only to use your brain but your heart. It is the hardest thing in the world to do but it is imperative to learn to you both in unison when serving the public and running a restaurant.'

I have never heard truer words.

Now back to pastrami. The plate should arrive this week. I hope to be able to produce a great piece of meet for under $10 a pound.

[FoodZealot]

Thank you, Chef Fowke! This is a great project. Many thanks for documenting it so thoroughly - your brain and heart are clearly working in concert. Congratulations also on the props from Mondavi - you should rightfully be proud of that.

~Tad

[Chef Fowke]

Thank you, Chef Fowke!  This is a great project.  Many thanks for documenting it so thoroughly - your brain and heart are clearly working in concert.  Congratulations also on the props from Mondavi - you should rightfully be proud of that.

~Tad

Mondavi was great! It is hard to believe he is 90 years old. He is so sharp and focused!

And the pastrami was pure fun. I really enjoyed the process. Three weeks to cure, smoke and produce! I always took it for granted. I now really appreciate a cured piece of beef (not including the stuff in the supermarkets).

I cannot wait to get the plate. I want to see how well it cures and smokes. The dry brine (with weight) should be a lot more economical and hopefully as flavourful.

[hwilson41]

I'm a newbie and just a lurker (only discovered egullet a few days ago), but this is as fascinating a site and thread as I've stumbled into in a long time.

Question for Chef Fowke (to whom I'll add my hearty thanks for taking on this project):

In the photos after "pastramization", there was no visible smoke ring on the brisket, unlike the Texas-style brisket I'm used to seeing. [Aside: absence of smoke ring is an acid test for fake "Texas style" brisket.] Is this just a fluke of the picture, or due to a difference in the smoking process? Thanks again for a job superbly done.

THW

[Chef Fowke]

I am not familiar with your 'smoke rings' on the meat. I think I know what you’re talking about from when I do a roast on the outdoor BBQ and slow cook it with hickory...

The brisket is cured with saltpeter to help preserve the colour of the meat. As well the actual smoker I have has two chambers. The smoke is indirectly introduced into the main chamber at a cool temperature. The heat applied to the meat is controlled through a secondary heating system that produces a very gentle, consistent heat.

I smoked the brisket for eight hours, at no time was there a ton of smoke or heat being applied to the meat and the process was very gentle so there was very little discolouration

[fifi]

I am not familiar with your 'smoke rings' on the meat. I think I know what you’re talking about from when I do a roast on the outdoor BBQ and slow cook it with hickory...

The brisket is cured with saltpeter to help preserve the colour of the meat. As well the actual smoker I have has two chambers. The smoke is indirectly introduced into the main chamber at a cool temperature. The heat applied to the meat is controlled through a secondary heating system that produces a very gentle, consistent heat.

I smoked the brisket for eight hours, at no time was there a ton of smoke or heat being applied to the meat and the process was very gentle so there was very little discolouration

I will make a stab at the "smoke ring" thing. Chef, you are on the right track. Some of our smoking gurus can probably expand on the following.

When brisket is smoked slowly, often more than 12 hours, the "smoke" penetrates from the outside. The myoglobin in the meat turns red from the chemicals in the smoke. I suspect it is the same reaction that occurs in chemical cures (like your pastrami) but I don't know the entire chemical composition of the smoke. In some competitive cooking, one of the judging points for brisket is the depth of the red ring.

Your pastrami was not smoked long enough or aggressively enough to produce that (as well it shouldn't) and, at any rate, the cure would have probably obscured it.

[hwilson41]

Chef;

I am not familiar with your 'smoke rings' on the meat. I think I know what you’re talking about from when I do a roast on the outdoor BBQ and slow cook it with hickory...

Fifi is just about dead on about the smoke ring. For real Texas barbecue, a 12 lb brisket should smoke 18 hours or so (rule of thumb is 1-1/2 hours per pound, but it varies from one to another). Usually done over hckory, always with indirect heat as you described, and temp between 200 and 225*. Some sort of chemical reaction (the physical chemistry of which I don't understand) takes place, and the outer ring of the brisket (sliced across the grain) will be darker and a purple-maroon color from the smoke penetration. 1/2" is considered a heavy smoke ring in most of the stuff I've read. I forgot about the color-preserving properties of the nitrates, and that and the shorter smoking time probably explain everything.

Aside: I read somewhere a while back about a popular restaurant in Manhattan, supposedly serving "authentic" Texas and Carolina style barbecues. One patron who knew about Texas barbecue ordered some, and noticed the absence of the smoke ring. Upon insistent questioning, somebody finally admitted that they were soaking the brisket overnight in liquid smoke and then cooking it in a conventional oven This should be at least a class 3 felony carrying a minimum sentence of 12 months of nothing but Big Macs to eat.

THW