The European way with a knife and fork

[Peter B Wolf]

To quote Steven:

"European-style is considered appropriate in America by most etiquette authorities, and seems to be eclipsing the American style. "......

and Sandra:

"....- also I have always wondered, what exactly are they doing with their hand on their lap while they are using the fork?? "........

Would you like to speed up the 'eclipsing'?

Just ask them directly ' What in the world are you doing down there with your hand RIGHT NOW?...Hands usually come up quickly.

[Bux]

The "American" way makes no sense.

Table manners are supposed to make sense?

Indeed, all manners are supposed to make sense of some sort. Most had some practical origin and it's enlightening when you find ettiquette experts who actually suggest a change in ettiquette so good manners actually make sense again.

[Bux]

Tell your kids to say something like... "Oh, We were taught the European way." Said with an appropriate air of superiority and worldliness of course. 

I don't know about that advice. That seems like giving another kid an excuse to beat your kids up.

You know - the ones in the family car with the bumper sticker that says "My kid could beat up your honor student".

The ideal is to raise your kid so he or she doesn't really care about the opinions of idiots and to be able to convince other kids that they can't beat your kid up, or that if they do, they will live to regret it for the rest of their life and maybe some time to come. All this while avoiding make him/her a bully.

[Nick]

Is there a single eGulleter who (assume formal/fine-dining situations only) does the fork-switching thing?

Add me to this small uncultured group. Somehow eating this way seems more deliberate and thoughtful of whatever it is that you're about to put in your mouth; rather than always having fork and knife at the ready for another shovelful.

I always eat this way, even in the company of those more of the "proper" etiquette set. They can always shrug their shoulders and assume that I'm from some far off Province - which I am.

[cdh]

On a recent visit to the US the woman opposite me at a big dinner party kept staring at me, her eyes tracking my left hand as it brought the fork to my mouth. She looked kind of alarmed. Is eating that way considered rude there?

Well, getting back to the etiquette query, I'd note that the alarmed, staring, disapproving woman was being far ruder than you ever possibly could have been, even if european-style cutlery management were deemed a faux pas here.

Anybody who can't take another's differences in stride and act graciously is the one with the etiquette problem, unless, of course, that person is formally hosting an event, and further is in a positon of power and authority which could be diminished by the lese majesty of improper manners, which might be used as a subtle slight. But that would apply less to table manners than to the meet&greet protocol. (Easier to fail to address the bishop as "your grace" and remain dignified, than to eat with your fingers without looking like a pig yourself).

This brings to mind the motto of my old school, "Manners makyth man"...

Edited June 27, 2003 by cdh (log)

[Bux]

This is a remarkably sophisticated group, in my pompous opinion. I'm pleased to see such overwhelming support for the better French way of eating over the English/American table utensil circus. Even those without the required dexterity to make the switch seem to recognize the superiority of the French manner.

I wonder if Fat Guy is correct in his belief that change in American table manners is in the wind. I seem to see most discussions on the subject of keeping one's fork in one's left hand ending up with a derisive chorus of Americans. If nothing else, many people take the very idea of a change, or an appeal to reason, in regard to the etiquette they have been taught by their mothers as a direct attack on the poor woman whose honor they have pledged to defend beyond all reason. That the subject can be discussed rationally with room for subjective feelings is a credit to eGullet.

[StephenT]

I'm pleased to see such overwhelming support for the better French way of eating over the English/American table utensil circus.

English don't do the "circus" thing.

[Steve Martin]

This is a remarkably sophisticated group, in my pompous opinion. I'm pleased to see such overwhelming support for the better French way of eating over the English/American table utensil circus. Even those without the required dexterity to make the switch seem to recognize the superiority of the French manner. 

The British use their cutlery in exactly the same way as the French. We simply do not use the American method.

Note. In Britain cutlery now refers to both knives and forks.

[StephenT]

One can also tell someone's class by the way they hold their knife. 

And their fork as well...

Apparently same holds true for chopsticks.

My sister lived in China for six months and said that the people she knew there were always telling her to hold the chopsticks quite near the ends because only common people hold them halfway down.

[Steve Martin]

One can also tell someone's class by the way they hold their knife. 

And their fork as well...

Apparently same holds true for chopsticks.

My sister lived in China for six months and said that the people she knew there were always telling her to hold the chopsticks quite near the ends because only common people hold them halfway down.

Which ends?

[Nick]

Anyone know the reason for "elbows off the table"???

Not really. But, when I was growing up my father sat to my left at the head of the table and if I chanced to have my left elbow on the table I would soon receive the tines of his fork to remind me of proper manners.

[Dave the Cook]

Anyone know the reason for "elbows off the table"???

Not really. But, when I was growing up my father sat to my left at the head of the table and if I chanced to have my left elbow on the table I would soon receive the tines of his fork to remind me of proper manners.

But did he use his left hand, or his right?

[sandra]

One can also tell someone's class by the way they hold their knife. 

And their fork as well...

Apparently same holds true for chopsticks.

My sister lived in China for six months and said that the people she knew there were always telling her to hold the chopsticks quite near the ends because only common people hold them halfway down.

Which ends?

The higher you hold them, the higher class you are (meaning hold the close to the top as opposed to close to the food end)

Just like a fork - like when someone puts their index finger on the bowl of the fork as they are cutting?? eeecchhhh -

[sandra]

Anyone know the reason for "elbows off the table"???

Not really. But, when I was growing up my father sat to my left at the head of the table and if I chanced to have my left elbow on the table I would soon receive the tines of his fork to remind me of proper manners.

See, I don't remember ever hearing or seeing that until we moved to the States...

My husbands grandmother used a butter knife for the same purposes - a bit more humane?

[Nick]

But did he use his left hand, or his right?

Right of course. Would have been something if we'd used Euro ways and he'd had to reach all the way across himself with the fork held in left hand.

[Steve Martin]

[Nick]

I suspect that the elbow thing is aimed directly at children.  They get bored and slouch all over the table, even when eating.  This simple rule prevents that.

Adults can look tidy and attentive with their elbows on the table, children cannot.  Especially because of their height.

Since this has come up I've gotten to wondering if it doesn't have something to do with the table cloth. Like skewing it one way or the other. (We always ate with a tablecloth - usually white linen at the more celebratory dinners.)

[Bux]

I stand corrected on the proper English table etiquette. Then there is really no excuse for the odd way we eat, or at least we can't blame it on the English. Perhaps it's a revolutionary thing. "We don't eat like that because the British do" It's hard to believe Jefferson didn't convert all of Virginia to French habits.

It requires a bit more dexterity to hold your chopsticks far from the "food end," but it is far more delicate and elegant looking if you master the art.

[slkinsey]

This article has the following to say, which I have never heard before:

Until the 1840’s everyone used the American style of handling dining utensils. Around 1852, a French etiquette book announced that if one wanted to eat in a high-class manner, one would not switch the fork to the other hand. Eventually this "continental style" evolved and Europeans of all classes started using it. Americans made the "original" style their style, and continue to use the American style today. Actually, both the American and Continental styles are appropriate with Continental style becoming the more contemporary way to eat.

[runninwithscissors]

Frankly, any efficient way to get food in your gullet should be acceptable, as long as it's not injurious to other diners at your table. 

The problem with this is that people start inventing things like the 'Splade' [shudder].

Indeed....or that damn thing they call a spork. WTF? Useless utensil--I'd rather use my hands.

[Peter B Wolf]

..... as long as it's not injurious to  other diners at your table.

....or to the crown jewels, with that 'left-hand-in-your-lap-thing'.:

"WHAT ARE YOU DOING DOWN THERE ??"

Edited June 27, 2003 by Peter B Wolf (log)

[elyse]

Nick is right. Changing hands came about from a loftier manner of eating. To take the time to switch showed a far less piggish and desparate position at the table. On the other hand... why do you care how other people eat?

[runninwithscissors]

Anyone know the reason for "elbows off the table"???

Not really. But, when I was growing up my father sat to my left at the head of the table and if I chanced to have my left elbow on the table I would soon receive the tines of his fork to remind me of proper manners.

Too funny...I don't remember you at our table!! Twins separated at birth? My dad did the same damn thing, and I have the scars to prove it.

Not only for elbows on the table, but for hangin' on to your glass to wash down that gawdawful liver'n onions. *ugh* Not that I'm a picky eater, but my mother's liver'n onions were meant more for transportation than digestability. *shudder*

[KNorthrup]

Ta da. Can I quote the link to save people from clicking?

explanation

Always keep your elbows off the table, it’s rude! But why? First thing to bear in mind; back in the old days, people sat down to dinner differently than we do now. It was more like a high school cafeteria, where people squeezed into a long table that was set into a row. This meant that each person was packed very tightly in between the people on either side of him, and simply didn’t have much maneuvering room to eat. The elbows weren’t allowed on the table because if you had an elbow on the table, the only place for it was in the middle of the next person’s plate. It was a courtesy made out of necessity. If someone had their elbows on the table, someone else couldn’t eat. Simple.

So it's like airplane armrests.

[fifi]

I, too, have memories of fork to elbow child abuse.

Sporks? What the f#%& is a runcible spoon?

From The Owl and the Pussycat

...So they sailed away

for a year and a day

to the land where the bong tree grows.

And there in the wood

a piggy wig stood

with a ring in the end of his nose.

His nose, his nose, his nose.

With a ring in the end of his nose.

"Dear pig, are you willing

to sell for a shilling

your ring?"

Said the piggy,

"I will."

So they took it away

and were married the next day

by the turkey who lives on the hill.

They dined on mince

and slices of quince

that they ate with a runcible spoon.

etc.

(I can recite this stupid poem and do it often and at high volume in public places to annoy my children.)

Edited June 28, 2003 by fifi (log)