Japanese interpretations of other cuisines

margaret · May 13, 2003

While many Japanese people tend to be (understandably) horrified at seeing maki with cream cheese and broccoli tempura in U.S. restaurants, the Japanese are also adept at adopting dishes from other cuisines and adjusting them to fit the Japanese palate.

For instance, curry rice, which I'm assuming came from India at some point, now bears no resemblance to any type of Indian curry. Other yoshoku examples would be hayashi raisu (hashed beef Japanese style, with a ketchup and shoyu based sauce), korokke (croquettes), Japanese bun-less hamburgers with grated daikon, omuraisu (thin omelette filled with rice , served with tomato ketchup), etc. Many school cafeterias and family restaurants dedicate a large portion of their menu to yoshoku (western dishes).

How do you feel about Japanese yoshoku? Should they be held up to the originals, or are they valid as a unique style of cooking?

torakris · May 13, 2003

Then there are the ones they don't refer to as yoshoku anymore such as tonkatsu and tempura. These area bout as washoku (Japanese Food) as you can get now.

Sometimes their classification of yoshoku (Western food) confuses me they have things like hayashi raisu (which is very Japanized) next to a beef stew no different than what I would eat in the US.

Most of their yoshoku that have been changed I don't really care for:

hayashi raisu

omu-raisu

most corokke

etc

I do love the wafu (Japanese style) hambagu (hamburger patty with no bun) with ponzu, grated daikon and a shiso leaf for garnish! :biggrin:

smallworld · May 14, 2003

I love yoshoku! Cabbage rolls and hamburgers are two foods that I never liked back in Canada. But I love the Japanese versions- roll-cabbage and hambagu (especially the wafu kind, as described by Kristin above) are much better than the originals. I also love croquettes, Japanese steak, curry-rice omu-rice and hayashi rice.

Curry was introduced to Japan by the English navy in the 19th century, so it's a Japanized version of an already mild and watered down English curry. A very interesting history, with two cities in Japan claiming to be the first place curry was eaten. One of the cities, Yokohama, even has a curry museum.

Not all yoshoku have a history like curry, but they've all been modified enough so that I don't think they should be directly compared to their originals (although I just did, didn't I!). They are definately unique unto themselves.

Of course, some yoshoku are nasty, like napolitan spaghetti (and omu-rice or hayashi rice made with too much ketchup). Not bad compared to their originals, just bad by themselves. Mostly this kind of cheap ketchupy yoshoku is for kids.

PS, Margaret is that a pumpkin on your bunny's head?

rcarter · May 14, 2003

Has anyone watched Saturday Night Chubaw? I came across the following on the TBS web page. http://www.tbs.co.jp/chubaw/en/back_number.html

Check out the back number links for 2002 and 2001 as well. I have yet to try the recipes, but it looks like a good selection of yoshoku with a few washoku.

smallworld · May 15, 2003

I like that show!

I didn't watch this Saturday because they were making 'nanban-zuke', a dish I'm not crazy about. The host (I forget his name) is very congenial- I've seen him in person when I was part of the audience (all of us foreigners) for a show he was filming, and he was nice and jokey with us all and kept apoligizing for taking so long. Nice guy.

There's another cooking show that invites three brave female 'talents', usually very young and obviously not used to cooking, to compete with a real chef and cook a few dishes. Can't remember what it's called or when it's on, but it's fun to see how completely useless most of these girls are in a kitchen!

Fat Guy · May 15, 2003

What is the exact definition of yoshoku? Is it just "western food" or is it "western food modified in a Japanese way"? For example, would the food served at Taillevent-Robuchon Tokyo be considered yoshoku? What about Nobu Tokyo?

Here in the New York Metro Area, we have a big Japanese supermarket complex called Mitsuwa Marketplace. I'm always amused by one of the restaurants In the food court: The Italian Tomato/St. Honore Bakery. It's a combination fast-food Italian restaurant and French bakery, but all the food is just a little bit off-center. It tastes as though extraterrestrials discovered an Earth cookbook and made the recipes exactly according to specification but with no frame of reference. Then again they cook the spaghetti properly al dente, which is more than I can say for most Italian restaurants in America.

margaret · May 15, 2003

That's what's so interesting about yoshoku. Translated character for character, it just means Western food (—mHj, but it seems to be a really distinct category in Japan. While French food served in Tokyo would technically be yoshoku (as opposed to Wa or Chu, Japanese or Chinese - the three big categories), the word yoshoku really does conjure up images of curry rice and white cream stew and croquettes, homestyle cooking or student fare, all modified to fit Japanese taste.

Italian Tomato is very popular in the Nagasaki area, famous for its cakes. There's another one now, too, at JAS Mart on St. Mark's Place. I love the shokupan, or white sandwich bread, at the bakery there.

Incidentally, I found that the Italian food I ate in Tokyo was, on the whole, better than what I'd had in most mid-level Italian places in New York. Have you been to Basta Pasta? It's an Japanese-run Italian joint on 18th or 19th street in New York, I think, and I've had a few decent meals there. Some interesting wafu pasta (Japanese style pasta) dishes that you can't find at a lot of places in New York.

margaret · May 15, 2003

This is an example of a pretty typical yoshoku menu.

I tried to find one with photos but no luck. Perhaps someone else will do better? (Torakris, I'm looking at you!)

torakris · May 15, 2003

Yoshoku, used today I think is quite different from about a hundred years ago or so when I am assuming it was first put into use. If you look at older cookbooks there are usually 3 divisions Japanese, Western and Chinese, as theses were the 3 major types of cuisine eaten in Japan. A lot of the original yoshoku was Western foods adapted to Japanese taste or to use ingredients easily food in Japan, this is were we see the curry rice, corroke, omu-raisu, hamburger patty, etc.

Nowadays, it seems to be be just more of a broad category that covers non-Asian foods, here is how one restaurant finding guide categorizes it (click on European) to see the list:

http://www.gnavi.co.jp/kanto/jokex07.htm

torakris · May 15, 2003

What is the exact definition of yoshoku? Is it just "western food" or is it "western food modified in a Japanese way"? For example, would the food served at Taillevent-Robuchon Tokyo be considered yoshoku? What about Nobu Tokyo?

I doubt these type of restaurants are considered yoshoku.

Yoshoku has the image of very cheap homestyle type meals, nothing really fancy.

Nobu I think falls under washoku (Japanese) and the other I have never heard of so I am not sure.

torakris · May 15, 2003

This is an example of a pretty typical yoshoku menu.
I tried to find one with photos but no luck. Perhaps someone else will do better? (Torakris, I'm looking at you!)

I found some nice pictures of modern day yoshoku:

http://www.tepore.com/homechef/me_wa_se/index.htm

all in Japanese but nice pictures!

smallworld · May 17, 2003

What is the exact definition of yoshoku?

Strictly speaking it refers to western food, but in actual use it means an old fashioned kind of "western food modified in a Japanese way". The pictures provided by Margaret and Kristin are good examples, but the Italian Tomate Cafe you mentioned is more specificly Italian (even if it doesn't seem very Italian).

For example, would the food served at Taillevent-Robuchon Tokyo be considered yoshoku?

That would definately be called French! Whereas yoshoku is usually eaten at home or in 'family restaurant' chains, usually restaurants serve food from specific countries or regions. So in that case, just like in the west, the food will be called 'Italian', 'French', 'Spanish'.

But being called 'French' is still no guarantee that a dish or a restaurant will be authentic.

What about Nobu Tokyo?

Nobu would be Japanese food, specificly 'shin-washoku' (new Japanese food). And by the way, Nobu is not popular here at all, despite this country's love of celebrity chefs.

Come to think of it, 'yoshoku' is much like the out-dated English 'oriental'. 'Oriental cuisine' conjures up images of chop suey and teriyaki, and although the term is still used (sometimes to describe all Asian cooking, more often meaning the old-fashioned types of dishes mentioned above) and the food is still eaten, it's much more common to eat more specific cuisines like 'sushi' or 'Cantonese'.

Does that help?

Fat Guy · May 17, 2003

It does help, yes. Thank you.

So what would you all cite as the ten most unusual examples of yoshoku?

I'll submit, for consideration, those buns that have hot dogs and curry flavor baked into them. Do they have a name?

jhlurie · May 17, 2003

Pizza with corn... uh... yuck.

On the other hand those hot dogs baked into buns with ketchup are pretty cool. As are cookie dough buns and custard buns (which have a very Western-style custard--although less sweet--baked inside)

Are they Korean or Japanese? Frankly I always used to think they were Korean, but I'm at least somewhat convinced that I might have only thought that because all of the Korean bakeries around here (northern New Jersey, USA--an area which is heavily Korean AND Japanese) seem to be serving a lot of Japanese customers, including Tourists.

Jason Perlow · May 17, 2003

http://www.hankooki.com/kt_culture/200207/...17234746110.htm

Read toward the last part of that article. I'm pretty sure this is the type of thing that Japanese "imported" from Korea, much like they did with yakiniku

However, Sunmerry, Parisienne and Gateaux, all three of which are prevalent in the Korean enclaves of Northern NJ (and do business within Han Ah Reum locations) are listed as "Japanese Cafes" and "Japanese Bakeries" on this site:

http://www.nyjpn.com/entertainment/cafes.htm

http://www.nyjpn.com/shopping/bakeries.htm

Sunmerry's has a web site in Japan:

http://www.sunmerrys.co.jp/top/

So its either that the Koreans adopted this type of Japanese bakery as their own or the Japanese became enamored with Korean-style baking.

torakris · May 17, 2003

I ahve never been to Korea so I can not comment who who made them first, but from what I know of bread making in Japan, both countries seem to have come to it about the same time. Knowledge of it in the mid 1800's, smalll bakeries springing up from the 20's to 40's, more interest and then a boom from the 1960's.

these kind of breads however aren't really considered yoshoku, they are just bread, yoshoku are usually a meal where bread is seen more as a snack.

torakris · May 17, 2003

So what would you all cite as the ten most unusual examples of yoshoku?
I'll submit, for consideration, those buns that have hot dogs and curry flavor baked into them. Do they have a name?

the hot dog buns are usually called soseji pan (soseji is the Japanese pronunciation of sausage and pan is bread)

the curry ones are calle kare pan (kare being the pronunciation of curry)

As to the 10 most unusaul examples, they are all unusual to me!

sometimes they like to combine them with each other as in katsu-kare (katsudon topped with curry) or corokke-kare (curry topped corroke).

margaret · May 17, 2003

Japanese bread is a whole separate category. I think I'm most horrified by yakisoba-pan - fried noodles stuffed into a hot dog bun. The sweeter breads, like red bean paste and taro, have always been my favorites.

It's interesting, though, becuase at least in New York, I always find the Korean bakeries to be the best. There are a few Chinese-run places in Chinatown which are the cheapest but the lowest quality, and a few chi-chi Japanese pastry places, but the Korean-run ones always seem to be the best.

Most unusual yoshoku....that's a tough one. As torakris said, they're all unusual, perhaps. It's just kind of strange to see these really familiar foods taken totally out of context and done in a completely Japanese way.

Is there a Chinese or Korean equivalent to yoshoku? I've had Chinese food cooked by Korean people, but never anything like curry or stew or anything. Anyone know? Is this something unique to Japan?

smallworld · May 18, 2003

So what would you all cite as the ten most unusual examples of yoshoku?
I'll submit, for consideration, those buns that have hot dogs and curry flavor baked into them. Do they have a name?

Well, unusual is not allways bad, so I'll start with

The Good:

-Croquettes with fun ingredients: pumpkin, curry, tofu, quail egg etc.

-Taco rice, an Okinawan dish like a taco salad using rice instead of the taco-shell bowl.

-Crepes, rolled up into a cone shape and carried around like an ice cream cone. Filled with an amazing variety of things: sliced fruit like strawberries, bananas, melons etc, topped with chopped nuts, chocolate chips, whipped cream, custard, ice cream, cream cheese, chocolate sauce, caramel sauce etc etc etc. Not so unusual, perhaps. So why not try a 'salad crepe', with any combination of lettuce, ham, potato salad, tuna and mayo?

-Nan filled with curry sauce- no need for dipping!

-Spaghetti served cold topped with grated daikon, canned tuna, with a light soy-based sauce and sprinkled with thin strips of nori (yes, this is in the 'good' category!).

The Bad:

-Cold curry rice- a fad a few summers ago.

-'Napolitan' spaghetti, with ketchup as the base.

-Pizza with potato, tuna and corn, criss-crossed with mayonnaise.

-White bread sold with the crusts already cut off and made into dainty sandwhiches with the thinnest layers possible of egg and cucumber, or maybe ham and mealy flavour-free tomato.

The Ugly:

-Raisin Butter. Just butter with raisins in it. Either served in a little cold block and eaten BY ITSELF or wedged between thin cookies to make a kind of sandwhich.

torakris · May 18, 2003

Oh those raisin-sando cookies are great!!

Totally addicting.

I have to admit I don't know what I would do with just the butter.

skchai · May 18, 2003

I ahve never been to Korea so I can not comment who who made them first, but from what I know of bread making in Japan, both countries seem to have come to it about the same time. Knowledge of it in the mid 1800's, smalll bakeries springing up from the 20's to 40's, more interest and then a boom from the 1960's.

Thanks, Torakris. Since 20's to 40's were during the period of Japanese colonial rule in Korea, it would be fair to assume that the urban shops and restaurants in which these yoshoku and bread dishes originated were either Japanese-owned or had a significant Japanese clientele, regardless of whether they were located in Tokyo or Seoul ("Keijo"). Furthermore, they would have to had their menus in the Japanese language.

None of which settles the problem of determining the ethnicity of the people who "invented" curry rice, tonkatsu, etc. In fact, it greatly complicates the problem. Such a fun topic, which in another type of forum would be the trigger for a big flame war across the East Sea (no! Sea of Japan!!)

Most of the names for yoshoku or Western-style pastries in Japan and Korea are based on borrowings from European languages or Chinese characters,

e.g.

J -> K -> E

shokupan -> shikppang -> sliced white bread

shuukuriimu -> shukeurim -> choux pastry / cream puff

(it took me a long time to figure out that this wasn't

a translation of "shoe cream")

karee -> kare -> curry

omuraisu -> omraisu -> omelette-covered rice

However, the name for at least one dish has in part "pure Japanese" origin: soboropan -> soboroppang -> sugar crumb-topped bun. (Soboro originally was a kind of minced seafood, then a popular minced meat dish that is allegedly resembled by sugar crumb topping.)

Another name, tonkatsu -> donkkatsu -> pork cutlet, contains a Chinese character for pig (sorry, I don't have kanji capabilities) that is used far more in Japan than it is in Korea.

On the other hand, there isn't a single commonly used name for yoshoku or Western-style pastry that is based on "pure Korean" as far as I know.

So at any rate, regardless of who invented it, the origin of yoshoku pretty clearly took place within a Japanese language-dominated cultural sphere. . .

Hiroyuki · May 24, 2004

I don't think this topic requires a whole new thread, but anyway, I'll start one.

Do Americans use only minced beef to make hamburger steaks?

The Japanese usually use aibiki (mix of minced beef and pork). According to a TV program, the best ratio of beef to pork is 7 to 3. My wife and I (and probably many other Japanese) also use minced chicken and minced pork instead of beef. My wife likes to mix some tofu with minced meat to make a healthy version.

Thanks.

Sleepy_Dragon · May 24, 2004

Yes, it's only minced beef in the US. Occasionally people may add a little bread crumbs or beaten egg as a binding agent if the meat is very lean, but hamburger = beef here.

There are also things like turkey burgers, made of ground turkey, but it's similar in that there is only one kind of meat in the patty.

Also, it's just called hamburger, not hamburger steak. Though there is also Salisbury Steak, which is also minced ground beef with some chopped onion, and often served with a brown mushroom gravy.

Pat

torakris · May 24, 2004

I always have compared a Japanese hamburger steak more to American meatloaf. Meatloaf is always better made with a mixture of meats (I like beef, pork and veal) and binders like breadcrumbs, eggs, etc as well as more flavorings.

Except for salisbury steak, I haven't seen too many people eating a hamburger with out a bun in the US.

My MIL raves about my hamburgers that I make for BBQ's and all they are is beef, salt and pepper, but many Japanese when making hamburgers with buns make them the same way they make a hamburger steak....

Hiroyuki · May 25, 2004

Sleeply_Dragon and torakris, thank you for your replies.

Sleepy_Dragon, in Japan, "hamburger" refers to a hamburger steak with a bun, and "hamburg" is used to refer to a hamburger steak. What a difference!

Let me list the main ingredients of Japanese hamburger steaks (4 servings):

Minced beef and pork: 350 g

Onions: 1

Bread crumbs: tbsp 3

Milk: tbsp 3

Eggs: 1

Pepper

And how to make (only briefly):

1. Finely chop the onion and sautee until tender. Let it cool.

2. Add some salt to the minced meat and knead well (for about 1 minute?)

3. Add the onion, the mixture of bread crumbs and milk, egg, and pepper to the meat and mix well.

4. Divide it into 4 equal parts and grill in the frying pan.

The sauce varies from person to person and family to family. Some pour ketchup only, others a mixture of kethup and tonkatu sauce. My family prefer the "assari" sauce that we make by putting equal amounts of soy sauce and mirin (fake) in the frying pan and heating for some time (after removing the steaks).

***

My wife and I almost always make hamburger steaks at home. We are not satisfied with store-bought ones. I always enjoy the taste of the combination of beef and pork, and it always makes me wonder why Americans prefer "hamburgers" made from beef only. That's why I started the thread.

Sign In

Japanese interpretations of other cuisines

Recommended Posts

Similar Content

Recently Browsing 0 members