Comparitive Culinary Value

[pixelchef]

How do you feel different countries stack up when it comes to value in fine dining? Taking into consideration price, service, quality of the food, wine and atmosphere, how do you feel certain countries/regions compare?

France obviously offers incredible dining all over the country, from Michelin 3-star establishments to country bistros, fine dining can be had almost anywhere. However, it is also rather expensive (as a whole). Is it a good deal? Is the food THAT good that you'd pay sometimes double what you'd pay in another country for almost the same experience? I feel it isn't.

Spain (take El Bulli for example) offers incredible value in my opinion for the level of cuisine they're pumping into the world of fine dining. I also feel that Canada offers exceptional value in its fine dining restaurants for the prices charged.

Discuss!

[Fat Guy]

I agree with you on Canada. Especially at the fine dining level, and especially when paying with American dollars, the value is incredible. I mean, the 9-course chef's menu at Lumiere in Vancouver is $90 (CDN) and the 13-course over-the-top-crazy menu is $120 (CDN). And the 6-course tasting at West in Vancouver is only $63 (CDN). Just to take the most outrageous of those, $120 (CDN) is $84.61 (US). That's just an amazing value for this menu.

[snowangel]

In some countries (Thailand comes to mind immediately), street food offers the ultimate in culinary value.

[Fat Guy]

So many factors go into the determination, and ultimately the personal ones tend to outweigh all others. For example, I'd have to eat Thai street food for several weeks in order to reclaim the expense of traveling to Thailand. For me, Canada represents such a great value because it's so accessible: I can drive from Manhattan to Montreal in about 6.5 hours. It takes me almost that long to get to Brooklyn when the traffic is bad!

[anil]

How do you feel different countries stack up when it comes to value in fine dining?  Taking into consideration price, service, quality of the food, wine and atmosphere, how do you feel certain countries/regions compare?

France obviously offers incredible dining all over the country, from Michelin 3-star establishments to country bistros, fine dining can be had almost anywhere.  However, it is also rather expensive (as a whole).  Is it a good deal?  Is the food THAT good that you'd pay sometimes double what you'd pay in another country for almost the same experience?  I feel it isn't.

Spain (take El Bulli for example) offers incredible value in my opinion for the level of cuisine they're pumping into the world of fine dining.  I also feel that Canada offers exceptional value in its fine dining restaurants for the prices charged.

Discuss!

I always have reservations with assigning ratings or measurements to dining experience, when things other than food are factored in.

1. If I go out (which I do 7 days a week ) I tune out or disregard atmosphere or other ancillary do-dads. An overtly cheery,bubbly waitperson who comes and says - "Hi I'm {Jenny}, I'll be your ___ tonight, Let me tell you about today's specials" get's negative impression, than a waitperson in Fuk Lum Moon, who withdraws in the background, but is there to replace my plate or refresh the glass without tamasha.

2. Atmosphere - Having the greatest views from the bathroom , or custom-buit signature furniture also tends not to impress - A staid and low-key decor is preffered.

Having said that - Continents are culturally driven in interpreting dining experience - Each country will have classy places that do the right thing, and shacks and dives that serve superb fresh fare day in day out - These countries will also have tacky and loud places that charge arm and a leg, as well as runof-the-mill eateries that are equivalent of artery-clogging, greasy uninspired fare, served by surley waitstaff.

Within the socio-cultural framework, you'd find majority of FSU,and ex-Warsaw Pact nations have some ways to go.

Expect to find great values in many Carribean islands which have fresh produce and have over decades assimilated cuisines of their native lands (Africa,Asia,India,Europe...)

In South America, the pace is slower, and the attitudes are more laid-back - Their restaurants (parrilas,churrasicarias) reflect that - Imagine a choice of 35 kinds of meats @ Marius in GIG, and the waitstaff comes with the individual meats in a skewer or plate and cut or carve out slices or pieces to your needs - Not gonna happen in a haute French restaurant

In SEA countries, the seasons define and regulate the ebbs and flows of their cuisines - Monsoons play a large role, and many places define their opening hours based on the weather - Eating out is regulated by the weather. Our dining was restricted in the monsoon season in BOM - Spending time negotiating the slusshy.rainly,splashy crowded streets and Borivili-Fast

At the highest end of personalized fine dining are a few places in Japan, where the reservation is taken for one group per night - they are keiseki sp ? The Zen chef, and hostess (optional) put together a meal balanced, and catered to highest perfection.

So is there a value ? Can an average American (outside the major cities) internalize that paying approx USD130 for a chinese soup is a good value (when the town's cheap chinese serves one for under USD2 ?) and MSG laden hot-sour-soup free with 4.95USD lunch is not even worh trying !!!

Remember when Kobe Beef came to NYC, and Old Homestead started serving it @ USD100 per ?, all the news media were doing stories and NooYorkers were shocked

Canada offers value because their dollar is weak and they are closer to us in the North and they speak English in most of the country; Mexico is closer to So. Cal or Texas, or .... they are a bargain for folks who are in the south.

I found great values in the last two years in EZE (Argentina) by exploiting their terrible economic collapse. GIG/GRU {Brazil} offers great choices for under USD20

Now the final question - What has more value -

[a] Sharing Paserrano, Faranco with a carioca with perfect bunda, by Copacabana OR Soup de Juer at Comme Chez Sio, BRU ?

[a] Dining Hall of BreachCandy Club, BOM OR Enjoying the thehtsaksan kin jeh in HKT beach house with a

Well, I am weak, my mind and body both are not beyond temptation, and am not a moralist like Newt - I'll do both a's and b's

Edited May 4, 2003 by anil (log)

[docsconz]

I have to concur with the opinions expressed re: the value of top-end food in Canada for an American. The most amazing meals I've ever had for the money and perhaps regardless of the money have been at Susur in Toronto and Toque in Montreal. Mexico is probably a close second, although I don't have as much personal experience with fine dining there. As Steve said the cost of getting places puts a crimp on value and makes Asia and Europe less value-oriented destinations for those of us from North America. For the Asians and Europeans it may be a different story .

[Jonathan Day]

I think for the comparison to make sense you have to have some "anchors" or typical meals (5-6 course degustation menu at one end, street snacks at the other); otherwise you end up saying, "street snacks in Thailand cost less than a 3 star meal in Paris" which is true but uninteresting. The Economist uses a Big Mac, I think, to run annual country purchasing power parity comparisons.

Currency adjustments have an enormous effect here. In dollar term the costs of some categories of skilled labour in post-devaluation Argentina fell to between 1/3 and 1/4 those of comparable labour in the US or UK. And as a result, superb meals there became available for trivial prices.

[IrishCream]

In some countries (Thailand comes to mind immediately), street food offers the ultimate in culinary value.

Thank you for pointing out that value is a relative term. Depending on the country one finds oneself in, "fine dining" may not have "culinary value" because it does not express the country's heritage. Mexico is a great example. Sure I have eatan fabulous French-Mex food. But I can eat a more authentic mole, tamale, etc., for a fraction of the cost at a small unpretentious hole-in-the-wall. Yes, I miss out on the view....instead I enjoy the genuine thrill of the owners when they find a turista who appreciates their food.

[pixelchef]

I specifically stated "fine dining". To me, street food in Thailand doesn't fit that criteria. So, I agree entirely with you Jonathan.

[Chef/Writer Spencer]

I specifically stated "fine dining".  To me, street food in Thailand doesn't fit that criteria.  So, I agree entirely with you Jonathan.

Wholehearted agreement with my good friend pixel. However, if we use the word fine to describe well-conceived and properly executed delicious food--personally I'd option for the Thai food. I cook fine dining, I sure don't long for it when I've hit full-on stoned. Ok, so I missed the point again.

Edited May 4, 2003 by Chef/Writer Spencer (log)

[Jinmyo]

At the highest end of personalized fine dining are a few places in Japan, where the reservation is taken for one group per night - they are keiseki sp ?  The Zen chef, and hostess (optional) put together a meal balanced, and catered to highest perfection.

Agreed. A few points.

"Kaiseki". While a kaiseki meal might be presented in a Zen context (at a monastery, temple, nunnery, or associated ryokan and as shojin ryori or vegetarian), most kaiseki have nothing to do with Zen.

[mamster]

High-end restaurants in Thailand also represent an incredible value, but they aren't, to me, what eating in Thailand is all about. Possibly this is because the food you get in high-end restaurants isn't much different from what you get on the street; it just has nicer presentation. Still, you can have many courses at an attractive restaurant (Baan Khanita, for example, or Thanying) and get out for maybe $13.

FG, you can ignore the cost of your flight to Thailand if you tell yourself that you have to go there to see some temple, and then pretend you just happened to notice the food.

[menton1]

My travels to Greece have uncovered a plethora of "fine restaurants" at incredibly low prices; the values there are unbelievable-- However, the point that must be factored in here is that "fine" dining in Greece does not equate with fine dining in other places, such as France... I never had wine served in jelly glasses in France!!

[anil]

Agreed. A few points.

"Kaiseki". While a kaiseki meal might be presented in a Zen context (at a monastery, temple, nunnery, or associated ryokan and as shojin ryori or vegetarian), most kaiseki have nothing to do with Zen.

You are correct to point that out - My choice of using "Zen" was sloppy - However, there are such places where food and ritual are elevated to high art -

[snowangel]

I specifically stated "fine dining".

Fine dining, depending on the circumstances, can mean very different things, and you (and perhaps Jonathan) seem to mean "upper end restaurant" dining?

Probably the finest meal I have eaten in the past two years was at our cabin. We drove up on a Friday evening. In the cooler -- one seared (but leftover from night before) strip steak. One freshly baked loaf of thin, crusty bread. One jar of Malle dijon mustard. One bottle of Russian River pinot noit. A container of freshly picked strawberries. One bag of freshly harvested greens.

The meal: on the dock. In swimming suits. Kids swimming. Thinly sliced leftover seared strips, bread, mustard, greens, strawberries, pinot noir (lemonade for the kids). 1,000 feet of lakeshore, can't see another cabin, no one else on the lake. Not a cloud in the sky, so still that the water is warm (we're near Canadian border), not a soul on the lake.

Best meal I've had in years...including "upper end, fine dining." Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Bux]

How do you feel different countries stack up when it comes to value in fine dining?  Taking into consideration price, service, quality of the food, wine and atmosphere, how do you feel certain countries/regions compare?

France obviously offers incredible dining all over the country, from Michelin 3-star establishments to country bistros, fine dining can be had almost anywhere.  However, it is also rather expensive (as a whole).  Is it a good deal?  Is the food THAT good that you'd pay sometimes double what you'd pay in another country for almost the same experience?  I feel it isn't.

Spain (take El Bulli for example) offers incredible value in my opinion for the level of cuisine they're pumping into the world of fine dining.  I also feel that Canada offers exceptional value in its fine dining restaurants for the prices charged.

Discuss!

I'm glad you've limited this to just fine dining, but even here I have a problem in that few countries offer the same kind of fine dining that France does. Lately I've traveled somewhat extensively in both France and Spain and I'll limit my comments to those two, because they're easier to compare to each other for me than either is to NY where I'm home and in a different mind set.

First, in both countries, your money seems to buy a better experience in the provinces than in the capital city. That said, comparable food in Spain seems less expensive than in France. The problem is in finding the comparable food. There are three star restaurants all over France. In Spain the multistarred restaurants are far fewer, and those that exist are clustered together. In terms of ordinary fine dining, that's to say those upscale white table cloth restaurants that may be where the locals celebrate birthdays, I've been disappointed so many times in each country, though at less expense in Spain.

[Bill Klapp]

I suspect that this thread will be going on for the rest of the year, so I'll offer the following: I couldn't agree more re: Canada, especially if you factor in the currency exchange rate. In Europe, at least you can eliminate currency as a factor in many cases (and I would like to forget the fact that I could have bought the Euro at $.85 and now face $1.15!). I will shock many by proposing Italy as a candidate. Before the old Da Guido closed recently, you could do the "full monte" there for 55-65 Euro a person plus wine. Three antipasti, pasta, a secondo, cheese and dessert (with white truffles in season), and some of the greatest of all traditional Piemontese cuisine available. Outside of the big cities, most Italians have not yet learned the Franco-American art of charging whatever they think that the market will bear. The survival of ristoranti like Guido depends upon local patronage, and the frugal Piemontese place absolute limits on what they are willing to pay for most things. Charge more, and they have the willpower to decide that they no longer need or want the item. I think such decisions are fairly easy in a place where, if white truffles are too expensive to suit you, you can buy (admittedly inferior) black truffles for a relative pittance. The same philosophy seems to apply from the top ristoranti to the lowliest osterie. That is not to say that price gouging is unknown in Italy-Enoteca Pinchiorri in Firenze comes to mind. The food is very good indeed, but you can drop $50 on soup and a glass of wine there. And Harry's Bar in Venezia? Those are places that have become tourist destinations in and of themselves, and they charge accordingly. Thank God most of Italy is still farmland!

[Zeb A]

I didn't have time to read every post carefully, but, if the question is, where have you found the best food value, I would say South Africa. My wife and I went there for our honeymoon nearly 4 years ago, and we had incredible meals at many of the purported top restaurants in South Africa, usually with a bottle of quality red and a bottle of quality white wines, at remarkably low cost. My recollection is that you could basically eat and drink most anything you want at a top restaurant, have an outstanding meal, and spend $50-80 for a couple. It is a great place for food and wine lovers to visit.

[SG-]

I specifically stated "fine dining".  To me, street food in Thailand doesn't fit that criteria.  So, I agree entirely with you Jonathan.

It seems that your definition of "fine dining" is prejudiced to western cuisines particulary those modeled after the French. If so, you should retitle your posting accordingly. Just realize that there are numerous cultures that have evolved "fine dining" of their own many centuries before the french but are not readily available in western world.

A royal thai feast in Thailand will probably cost a lot less than a meal at a 3 * michelin restaurant. Is one, a lesser cuisine than another? Different yes, but not inferior. Likewise, some would consider paying US$100+ for the finest bowl of shark's fin soup in HK a great value compared to say a truffle soup prepared by Alain Ducasse. It can work both ways.

All depends on your definition of "fine dining", to me it encompasses pinnacles of any cuisine irregardles of origin ...

[herbacidal]

glad to see you've joined us, SG.

look forward to reading more from you.

[SG-]

likewise herb