Tomatoes in Italian Cooking: Tips & Techniques

[torakris]

Isn't it the crushing of the seeds that makes the sauce bitter, so if they aren't crushed during the process....

Is it possible that some varieties of tomatoes have seeds that are more bitter then others?

I have never noticed bitterness in the pasta coked by myself, my mother or my grandmother.

[Craig Camp]

Isn't it the crushing of the seeds that makes the sauce bitter, so if they aren't crushed during the process....

Is it possible that some varieties of tomatoes have seeds that are more bitter then others?

I have never noticed bitterness in the pasta coked by myself, my mother or my grandmother.

Certainly crushing the seeds releases the most tannins, but heat also breaks down the seeds releasing tannin. In winemaking you don't have to break the seed to add tannin to the wine. Also if you are making larger quantities and freezing or canning the tomatoes tannins continue to be leached out of the seeds.

We make all sort of extra steps as cooks to make food better - why not this one?

[Bill Klapp]

I'm firmly in the "seed the tomatoes" camp, for the reasons Craig has articulated. However, all of this tannin discussion raises an interesting point: by analogy to wine, does your tomato sauce age more gracefully and develop secondary aromas and flavors if you leave the seeds in? A tomato is a fruit, after all! (But maybe your sauce would have to be fermented to get the benefits, and then I suppose you have to address the question as to whether stainless steel, large chestnut casks or barrique is the best material for elevage, then new oak vs. old oak, then new wave vs. traditionalist-there would be no end to this thread!)

[Suzanne F]

For fresh, raw sauces, I'd definitely seed. Peel? Maybe, if the skins seemed tough. For long-cooked sauces, wouldn't bother with either.

Non-sauce use: when I make (oven-dried) tomatoes, I always seed. Otherwise it takes FOREVER for the tomatoes to dry enough. But I don't toss out the seeds and goo: I strain it and save the "water" for later use. In fact, when I used to make a tomato water gelee at work, I would take ALL the innards and skins from the tomatoes that had been concassed to add to the puree for dripping. (I too hate throwing away anything usable. But in a restaurant you have to balance product cost against labor cost.)

[Sandra Levine]

I will match my love of tomatoes against anyone's -- and I'm here to tell you that tomato seeds are...disgusting. Get rid of 'em.

[Suvir Saran]

I'm firmly in the "seed the tomatoes" camp, for the reasons Craig has articulated.  However, all of this tannin discussion raises an interesting point:  by analogy to wine, does your tomato sauce age more gracefully and develop secondary aromas and flavors if you leave the seeds in?  A tomato is a fruit, after all!  (But maybe your sauce would have to be fermented to get the benefits, and then I suppose you have to address the question as to whether stainless steel, large chestnut casks or barrique is the best material for elevage, then new oak vs. old oak, then new wave vs. traditionalist-there would be no end to this thread!)

hmmmm....

[peterpumkino]

It is packed with flavor and excellent with the uncooked tomato sauces we seem to be making everyday in order to be not overrun with the tomatoes in our garden.

Craig, why don't you list your simple tomato sauce recipe as I cannot find a real italian recipe for this anywhere (yes, there's thousands around but they just don't cut the mustard) - maybe yours will (don't forget the little tips as they are what makes the difference).

Thanks in anticipation and hunger.

[Craig Camp]

My current favorite:

a bunch of ripe tomatoes right off the vine

a bunch of just picked basil

big dollop of EVOO

chop both the tomatoes and basil together trying not to lose any of the tomato juices and mix with EVOO.

add salt and a good dose of finely ground black or white pepper.

Let set for at least 30 minutes.

Cut fresh ricotta cheese into small chunks.

Grate a substantial amount of reggiano and blend into the sauce until it has a very slight grainy texture. Do not blend it into the sauce until the pasta is almost done.

cook your pasta. I like to use Orecchiette with this dish, but others work well too.

As soon as your pasta is done drain and toss with tomato basil mixture and plate it.

Scatter chucks of ricotta over the top of the pasta and garnish with a whole basil leaf.

Serve with a light, slightly chilled red. Vivace barbera is a good choice on a hot day.

WARNING: do not expect much from this dish with crappy ricotta.

copyright 2002 Vino e Cibo.

[Bill Klapp]

Craig, I favor an offshoot of your sauce above, but I salt the tomatoes (without the basil) in a colander to make them lose the juices rather than saving them. I then add the basil, pepper and EVOO, and let the whole thing marinate for an hour or so. I then toss 1/4" cubes of buffala and that mixture with angel-hair pasta (fresh or dried), and finish it off with a little fresh-grated Reggie-Parmie. Called Spaghetti alla Checca. This does not suck too bad, either. I will save my tomato juice for you.

[Craig Camp]

Craig, I favor an offshoot of your sauce above, but I salt the tomatoes (without the basil) in a colander to make them lose the juices rather than saving them.  I then add the basil, pepper and EVOO, and let the whole thing marinate for an hour or so.  I then toss 1/4" cubes of buffala and that mixture with angel-hair pasta (fresh or dried), and finish it off with a little fresh-grated Reggie-Parmie.  Called Spaghetti alla Checca.  This does not suck too bad, either.  I will save my tomato juice for you.

This is an adaptation of a recipe shown me by an excellent home cook in Puglia. Sometimes the juice is too good to toss. I don't think you can do it with store bought tomatoes and have never tried. They have to come right off the vine. With the tomatoes I make this with I always end up eating one like an apple when I pick a few. They are still warm from the sun and outrageously good.

I have had the recipe you suggest and love it. Happy to eat it at any time.

[Bux]

Cut fresh ricotta cheese into small chunks.

Interesting. Here in NY, fresh ricotta cheese is rather wet and loose. I'm speaking of the really fresh ricotta one buys at an old fashioned Italian-American cheese and salumi shop, where they make their own ricotta and mozzarella. Is fresh ricotta in Italy so much drier that it can be cut into dice or chunks or are you talking about something closer to what I can buy here as ricotta salata? We've made variations of that sauce with fresh ricotta, ricotta salata and fresh mozzarella. (It's even good without the pasta.)

Do you ever peel the tomatoes, or is that too French a thing to do? We usually peel the tomatoes. I'd also note that when we grew our own, the skins were very tough. It may be the New York City environment. It ends to make us all thick skinned. I've found the local tomatoes in the Greenmarket also have relatively tough skins. Removing the seeds and juice is another interesting thing. For years we commonly did that with most tomatoes that went into any dish that wasn't just salad, but after chefs started using the tomato water and the jelly that sticks to the seeds as featured items, we have had to question the value of removing them.

Just for the history of it, I wish I could remember who first taught me to put oil in the pasta water and who first convinced me to stop.

I'd like to watch someone remove orecchiette with tongs.

[malcolmjolley]

Cut fresh ricotta cheese into small chunks.

I'd like to watch someone remove orecchiette with tongs.

Touché

[etnea]

FYI.. for anyone looking for great fresh, dry ricotta and happens to live in NYC, take the trip to Arthur Avenue in the Bronx.

The latticini there--Calabria Cheese store, I think that is what the cheese store is called-- are as good as can be had ( i.e. using american milk is the challenge).. the family makes great ricotta. I usually use the ricotta to spread on fresh Terranova bread ( also on Arthur Ave), sprinkle with some sugar and cinnamon.. Breakfast is served.

It is also the perfect consistency ( and to a great degree, taste) for the sicilian dish of Pasta e ricotta.

The fresh tomato sauce recipe sounds good..

Edited July 31, 2003 by etnea (log)

[slkinsey]

FYI.. for anyone looking for great fresh, dry ricotta and happens to live in NYC, take the trip to Arthur Avenue in the Bronx.

The guys at Alleva and Di Paolo in Manhattan are no slouches in that department either.

[Bux]

I swear by DiPalo. Louis is my go to guy for anything Italian. Arthur Avenue may be part of a thriving Italian-American neighborhood and a more colorful neighborhood to shop in than Little Italy in Manhattan is today, but Louis is in Italy several times a year working with this suppliers and staying on top of his import business.

[Craig Camp]

Cut fresh ricotta cheese into small chunks.

Interesting. Here in NY, fresh ricotta cheese is rather wet and loose.

Do you ever peel the tomatoes, or is that too French a thing to do?

Here is it just solid enough to stay together if you cut it carefully. When I say chunks it is not as in a firm cheese. Just larger barely solid pieces. As soon as you stir your pasta in the bowl is starts to break up. That is part of the wonderful flavor of the dish.

The way I learned this dish is you leave the skins on so there are actual chunks of tomato to pick up with the pasta. Obviously perfect tomatoes are a must.

[Lyle]

Cut fresh ricotta cheese into small chunks.

Interesting. Here in NY, fresh ricotta cheese is rather wet and loose.

Do you ever peel the tomatoes, or is that too French a thing to do?

Here is it just solid enough to stay together if you cut it carefully. When I say chunks it is not as in a firm cheese. Just larger barely solid pieces. As soon as you stir your pasta in the bowl is starts to break up. That is part of the wonderful flavor of the dish.

The way I learned this dish is you leave the skins on so there are actual chunks of tomato to pick up with the pasta. Obviously perfect tomatoes are a must.

For that very reason when I make this I use crumbled ricotta salata. The little crumbles get into the tomato cavities. As it's more assertive than other ricottas I get locally, a little goes a long way.

[Adam Balic]

Craig, Bill & Peter - Most packets of pasta I have seen in Italy have cooking times for "al dente" and also "normale" which is softer to the tooth. Although, I have never eaten pasta cooked "normale" in Italy, does not the word it self suggest that this was the normal practice at some point? Also, given the hugh amount of pasta and different types of pasta is it not possible that some pasta is not best served al dente? Although I dislike it, I imagine that Pinci would be better normale, rather then al dente?

Some brands do include this designation, but not many. As far as I can remember those having that designation are large commercial brands of no particular interest. I have never been served any pasta in Italy that was not roundly criticized by the table if it was the least bit overcooked. I just went over to my cabinet to check and out of the 9 brands of pasta in there at the moment only one has the two cooking times and I would not buy it again.

'al dente' is kind a moving target as it slightly different for different shapes.

Please remember there are a lot of bad cooks in Italy: just fewer than in other places.

One of my current favorite home brands of spaghetti is Spaghetti alla Chitarra from Garofolo in Naples. They recommend 14 minutes and it takes every minute of that to reach the al dente stage. It is packed with flavor and excellent with the uncooked tomato sauces we seem to be making everyday in order to be not overrun with the tomatoes in our garden.

I should have said that most packets of pasta I have seen are "Barilla" .

It would seem to me that 'al dente' was not the preferered degree of doneness in pasta in all regions. I wonder if the widespread preference for 'al dente' is due to the increased consumption of factory produced dried pasta. I wonder how many interesting 'native' pasta have become extinct, due to the popularity of dried pasta. That Alpine buckwheat pasta that they serve with cabbage, potato and cheese is strangely, a recipe that doesn't deserve to go extinct for instance.

"Spaghetti alla Chitarra" is one of my favourite pasta. I like the mouth feel of the square edges of the individual pasta strands. As it is difficult to source ( ) in the UK, I usualy make my own on a Chitarra.

[Craig Camp]

For that very reason when I make this I use crumbled ricotta salata.  The little crumbles get into the tomato cavities.  As it's more assertive than other ricottas I get locally, a little goes a long way.

For this dish I prefer the fresh ricotta. The store in our town carries a nice one from Puglia which I like very much. The fresh gives the dish a creamy texture, which is exactly what I am looking for. With ricotta salata you get a grainy texture - which while very tasty is a different sauce.

[Varmint]

I'll seed the tomatoes from time to time. I also use just a touch of minced garlic, too. And if I really want to push the envelope, I'll use feta -- it tastes good, regardless that it's not Italian. Smoked mozzarella works well, too!

[Pongi]

Adam,

suppose you're speaking of "Pizzoccheri alla valtellinese".

Don't worry, they're widely available in most italian supermarkets for now.

Serving them with their delicious but hypercaloric sauce is another kettle of fish...especially NOW

Let's talk about that in December!

Pongi

[Basilgirl]

I read somewhere to take some of the tomato juices after the mixture has been marinating and toss them with the drained pasta over heat. I haven't tried this yet, has anyone else?

[Bill Klapp]

In the Klapp variation, I peel and seed. Unlike Craig's recipe, the idea in my recipe is a "melting" of the tomatoes and the buffala.

[trillium]

Craig, I favor an offshoot of your sauce above, but I salt the tomatoes (without the basil) in a colander to make them lose the juices rather than saving them.  I then add the basil, pepper and EVOO, and let the whole thing marinate for an hour or so.  I then toss 1/4" cubes of buffala and that mixture with angel-hair pasta (fresh or dried), and finish it off with a little fresh-grated Reggie-Parmie.  Called Spaghetti alla Checca.  This does not suck too bad, either.  I will save my tomato juice for you.

I've been told by Italians (well, Sicilians anyway) that angel-hair pasta is only for soup, you break it up and toss it in. I noticed in Guiliano Hazan's book he makes that assertion too. Are there two camps of thought? I like tossing it with a simple tomato sauce on week nights when I can't wait for dinner to be ready, so I've been ignoring that "rule".

regards,

trillium

[Bux]

I've been told by Italians (well, Sicilians anyway) that angel-hair pasta is only for soup, you break it up and toss it in.  I noticed in Guiliano Hazan's book he makes that assertion too.  Are there two camps of thought?  I like tossing it with a simple tomato sauce on week nights when I can't wait for dinner to be ready, so I've been ignoring that "rule".

You might want to keep an eye out for the Sicilian pasta enforcement team. I hear they don't play as nice as the Swedish bikini team.

And if I really want to push the envelope, I'll use feta -- it tastes good, regardless that it's not Italian.

I'll see your feta and raise you fresh chèvre (from France, no less).

With ricotta salata you get a grainy texture - which while very tasty is a different sauce.

Some of us come here for an expert opinion, not options.