New Yorkan Cuisine

[Fat Guy]

There is no significant Japanese population in New York City, merchant or otherwise. In this city of 8 million, the Japanese population is approximately 23 thousand. Ditto for the French. The process of assimilating those cuisines has had nothing whatever to do with the assimilation of members of those demographic groups

A testament to their cuisine don't you think?

Absolutely. And a compelling refutation of any attempt to generalize about how cuisines are spread. They can be spread many different ways: through immigration and assimilation, through active promotion, through being embraced by a connoisseur class, through catering to an affluent tourist community, and through various combinations thereof. Most importantly, as in all history, a single pivotal figure -- or a small group of such figures -- can change the course of events regardless of generalizations and trends.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Absolutely. And a compelling refutation of any attempt to generalize about how cuisines are spread. They can be spread many different ways: through immigration and assimilation, through active promotion, through being embraced by a connoisseur class, through catering to an affluent tourist community, and through various combinations thereof

Well that is agreed. But that raises the following question. What does how a cuisine assimilates say about that cuisine in terms of complexity and sophistication (as a cuisine that is?) I mean isn't the fact that Jewish cuisine , which is predominantly comfort food, and which has been pretty much replaced by French bistro cuisine, say something about the limitations of the cuisine itself? And I know that's a fairly generalized statment but I think it's fair to say that for restaurant eating (and I mean a class of restaurant above a delicatessen), a dish like Poule au Pot has replaced Chicken in the Pot as the gold standard of chicken soup dishes. And that's just one example of many I could probably make.

Edited March 31, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Wilfrid]

And a compelling refutation of any attempt to generalize about how cuisines are spread. They can be spread many different ways: through immigration and assimilation, through active promotion, through being embraced by a connoisseur class, through catering to an affluent tourist community, and through various combinations thereof. Most importantly, as in all history, a single pivotal figure -- or a small group of such figures -- can change the course of events regardless of generalizations and trends.

Not to reject that completely, I need a lot of persuading that immigration is not far and away the most important means by which cuisines travel. I've always said that French is a special case. Japanese too - in both New York and London, Japanese cuisine entered the market at the top end, catering just about exclusively for a populous, very affluent Japanese business class, not necessarily resident in those cities. I do have trouble thinking of example of cuisines travelling through promotion, connoisseurship or tourism, though.

As to the white noise on the thread, the generalizations about the class-identity, motivation and aptitiudes of various ethnic groups, strike me in each case as largely false. That's often the way with generalizations.

But, merchants - are they related to tourists?

[Fat Guy]

I need a lot of persuading that immigration is not far and away the most important means by which cuisines travel.

In fine dining, immigration is pretty much irrelevant. When you get into the mass market, it's far more important. But even there you can find plenty of exceptions. I mean, do we have a Thai population in the United States that is anywhere near large enough to explain the success of Thai food?

[g.johnson]

The overall population of Thais doesn't matter if most of them open restaurants.

[Wilfrid]

Thai was about the only plausible contender last time we discussed this. That may be an exception at that level. I agree about French and Japanese food, of course, which largely make up the fine dining category. But if you put Thai in one pan on the scales, in the other pan - just for New York - you have German, Mexican, Latin in general, Italian, Vietnamese, Korean, Chinese, Jewish, need I go on?

[Steve Plotnicki]

As to the white noise on the thread, the generalizations about the class-identity, motivation and aptitiudes of various ethnic groups, strike me in each case as largely false. That's often the way with generalizations.

You see I think that is a bad characterization of it. It isn't a matter of aptitudes, it's what various communities believe there is equity in. Jews have a family unity ethic and it was typical for that ethic to externalize itself through a family business. It kept a bond between family members and different generations in the family. And because of this group effort to keep the family equity alive (which started out as sweat equity and resulted in finanical equity for the participants,) an entire cottage industry, including special restaurants, was created to cater to that group of people. This ability to make money from within, which means you don't have to depend on attracting people from outside of your close knit group, has to have some effect on your cuisine. It should be a fairly simple business proposition to say that if Korean restaurants had to depend in large part on non-Asian customers, they would modify the cuisine to appeal to that group of people. Just like the old school Chinese restaurants did in my Mom's generation with things like Shrimp in Lobster Sauce. But if you are a large, self-contained community, you have no impetus to do that, unless you are specifically targeting other types of diners, which would be a place like Nobu or Tabla.

Edited March 31, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Fat Guy]

need I go on?

Yes, but I'm going to resist the temptation to be further complicit in making so many threads on the site about the same thing.

[Wilfrid]

What I meant to imply was that I don't think this discussion group - and I include myself - has any great contribution to make to the field of sociology, and should perhaps stick more closely to what it does well. As an example, "Jews have a family unity ethic " strikes me as an assertion with little explanatory value; I mean, Chinese people don't? Mexican people don't? Unless these debates are conducted with some theoretical rigor, we run the risk of coming across as ill-informed, patronizing and smug. We're better off coming across that way on the subject of food.

Edited March 31, 2003 by Wilfrid (log)

[tommy]

Yes, but I'm going to resist the temptation to be further complicit in making so many threads on the site about the same thing.

i fancy myself a pretty smart guy, and i haven't been able to tell one thread from the other for the past 2 weeks. one can't help but think that this is the by-product of something intentional on some level.

[GordonCooks]

Gordon - Then why don't you tell us a little about why Korean cuisine seems to not be promoted to non-Koreans the way other cuisines are? And possibly a few reasons why if that is the case? It certainly doesn't seem like Korean cuisine gets the same type of coverage in the NYC food press that say Indian food gets.

Well, I can’t speak for the NYC area but I can tell you about Upstate. Korean immigration in the last 30 or so years into nearby areas is not significant, and by majority – college students, professionals, and entrepreneurs.

Korean food is unique as far as spicing and flavors and many of dishes considered gourmet may have a level of spicing and/or fermentation that’s uncommon for the American palate.

The typical Korean restaurant is

a) Typically inferior to home cooking in terms of technique and ingredients

b) Owned/Run by Traditional Koreans who are more familiar with the “feeding” than “dining”

c) Frequented by a customer base of less than 25% Americans

d) Providing dishes in their traditional form instead of a “neophyte-friendly” menu

A typical demographic would be 50% Korean students, 30% large family gatherings, and 20% American. As more people are exposed to Korean food, they will find certain dishes they like – the trend will increase and the cuisine will become more popular. The biggest growth spurt would come from a so-called celebrity chef making Korean food “fashionable” Maybe Emeril can do a Bulgogi show and Wolfgang Puck will open some type of Korean Fusion. Korean food now is what Regional Italian food was 40 years ago. An infant cuisine full of undiscovered possibilities with something for every palate.

Edited March 31, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Well you have parsed what I said. And first of all, not every ethnic groups sense of family unity is the same. But aside from that, the issue is how it typically manifested itself. With Jews, for some reason, it manifested itself by being merchants. Same with Koreans, as Lissome pointed out. The corner markets in my neighborhood have not been taken over by Polish immigrants, although there is no shortage of Polish people who have immigrated to this country.

[Wilfrid]

...for some reason

That's the bit without which we can't get much further.

Tommy, the knife storage thread looks pretty safe.

[g.johnson]

...for some reason

That's the bit without which we can't get much further.

Tommy, the knife storage thread looks pretty safe.

I was thinking of mentioning the lack of complexity in Korean magnetic holders.

[Jason Perlow]

The typical Korean restaurant is

a) Typically inferior to home cooking in terms of technique and ingredients

b) Owned/Run by Traditional Koreans who are more familiar with the “feeding” than “dining”

c) Frequented by a customer base of less than 25% Americans

d) Providing dishes in their traditional form instead of a “neophyte-friendly” menu

a) This may be in upstate NY, but around here in Mercedes land in Northern NJ, most korean restaurants are on par in terms of total end-user bill cost with a Japanese restaurant and use some pretty expensive ingredients, particularly in cuts of meat. In fact, because of the unique situation here where Korean restaurants cater to Japanese clientele as well, you get a lot of these places also serving sushi with full blown sushi bars and Japanese sushi chefs.

b) I havent seen evidence of this locally.

c) This is probably true for here as well, but this has been changing.

d) yes, I agree with that.

[GordonCooks]

The typical Korean restaurant is

a) Typically inferior to home cooking in terms of technique and ingredients

b) Owned/Run by Traditional Koreans who are more familiar with the “feeding” than “dining”

c) Frequented by a customer base of less than 25% Americans

d) Providing dishes in their traditional form instead of a “neophyte-friendly” menu

a) This may be in upstate NY, but around here in Mercedes land in Northern NJ, most korean restaurants are on par in terms of total end-user bill cost with a Japanese restaurant and use some pretty expensive ingredients, particularly in cuts of meat. In fact, because of the unique situation here where Korean restaurants cater to Japanese clientele as well, you get a lot of these places also serving sushi with full blown sushi bars and Japanese sushi chefs.

b) I havent seen evidence of this locally.

c) This is probably true for here as well, but this has been changing.

d) yes, I agree with that.

Maybe a result of a larger Korean metro population and the overall quality and standards of the regional ethnic restaurants - consider youself lucky. You will probably see a lot of Japanese crossover in Korean Restaurants as many japanese dishes are derived from Korean techniques. What came first the Kim Bap or the Sushi roll ?

[Jason Perlow]

The other thing I would like to add is that in Northern NJ, we have a LOT of variety in the types of Korean restaurants we have here. For example, We have a North Korean dumpling place, several Korean-Chinese (for those that are unfamiliar, its Chinese food for Koreans, totally different from any other sort of Chinese cusine), several noodle specialists, seafood specialists, barbecue specialists with coal fired grills, and tofu specialists. Not to mention 3 different chains of Korean cafe-bakeries and coffee shops serving uniquely Korean (and Japanese) stuff. Plus we have no fewer than 6 Korean-megasupermarkets with top quality produce and seafood, poultry and meats and other items for sale.

Edited March 31, 2003 by Jason Perlow (log)

[SobaAddict70]

why Korean cuisine seems to not be promoted to non-Koreans the way other cuisines are? And possibly a few reasons why if that is the case?

One reason why can be found here in this article.

To wit:

But, she continued, "when I started living on my own I missed Korean food, so I started to cook it." She soon recognized that Koreans were toning things down, making their food less spicy for American — and Americanized Korean — palates. "Almost no one, not in restaurants or in Korean homes, uses as much spice as Korean food really needs," she said. "Not enough black pepper, chilies or garlic."

I think, and this is just my opinion, that one reason is because if Korean food were "dumbed down" as in the experience of the person quoted in the article referenced above, then it wouldn't be Korean food. If I recall, there seems to be only one quasi-Korean restaurant in recent years, and that's Dok Suni. I can't recall there being another quality quasi-Korean fusion place at Dok Suni's level. Dok Suni IS a great fusion restaurant, but it isn't TRUE Korean (in my opinion). It's a good place to introduce Korean food newbies to Korean cuisine though.

Since most places that market themselves as Korean restaurants offer the genuine article, and since most of the clientele are Koreans, then it's up to us, the general public, to learn more about the cuisine if we want to experience it at its finest, not the other way around.

I don't understand why a Korean would eat at a place that touts itself as a dumbed down version of Korean food when s/he could get a better quality version of the same thing at a Korean restaurant that offers genuine, non-dumbed down Korean food. I can think of plenty of reasons why a non-Korean might prefer going to the first and not the second. Maybe its just me.

Cheers,

Soba

PS. I heartily recommend going to Cho Dang Gol, which specializes in making their own tofu, and in tofu-based Korean cuisine.

PPS. The Voice of Sietsema: Dumpling Detente

Edited March 31, 2003 by SobaAddict70 (log)

[Jason Perlow]

A couple of years ago Rachel and I got ourselves in hot water by criticising by what Jim Leff and others on that board considered at the time to be the best Korean restaurant in the Tri-State area, Bo. This was a Korean restaurant, that for the most part, catered almost exclusively to non-Koreans.

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/outer3/mes...sages/2214.html

Suffice to say the crux of my argument was that the American populace wasn't ready for Korean food to hit the collective mindset yet. Part of Bo's eventual demise also had to do with the fact that it was buried among 1000 other Korean restaurants in Flushing.

Shortly thereafter Bo went out of business, and was lamented on by Leff several times in his short column for Slate.

[GordonCooks]

A couple of years ago Rachel and I got ourselves in hot water by criticising by what Jim Leff and others on that board considered at the time to be the best Korean restaurant in the Tri-State area, Bo. This was a Korean restaurant, that for the most part, catered almost exclusively to non-Koreans. 

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/outer3/mes...sages/2214.html

Suffice to say the crux of my argument was that the American populace wasn't ready for Korean food to hit the collective mindset yet. Part of Bo's eventual demise also had to do with the fact that it was buried among 1000 other Korean restaurants in Flushing.

Shortly thereafter Bo went out of business, and was lamented on by Leff several times in his short column for Slate.

Mr Leff does not realize that a complete menu for a korean restaurant would be as thick as a phone book. The rule of thumb for me in ethnic cuisine is if the native don't eat there, then the tourists probably do.

One important point - A full tilt Korean kitchen has to be one of the most un-godly awful smells on earth. My mom's Kim-chee soup could garner any Haz-Mat team's Full attention

[SobaAddict70]

Er, what's a Haz-Mat?

Some kind of bureaucratic animal?

Cheers,

Soba

[GordonCooks]

Er, what's a Haz-Mat?

Some kind of bureaucratic animal?

Cheers,

Soba

There who my parent's old neighbors threatened to call if my mom ever made the stew on a hot summer's day with the windows open

Edited March 31, 2003 by GordonCooks (log)

[Jason Perlow]

Er, what's a Haz-Mat?

Some kind of bureaucratic animal? 

Cheers,

Soba

Hazardous Material suit. What they wear in nuclear waste disposal facilities.

[weinoo]

You know, after reading this thread, I gotta go make dinner...I hope a Jewish guy, born in Brooklyn, raised in Forest Hills and Franklin Square, spent 18 years in california and 9 in manhattan, can still cook a decent pasta w/cacio e pepe, sided with some sauteed broccoli raab. Otherwise, maybe I'll pull the tofu out of my fridge - no wait, perhaps make some congee with the tientsin pickled vegetable...cold udon w/ homemade dashi - fuck it - salami and eggs?

I like Arties.

You guys are way too intellectual to be discussing all this on a food board.

[Wilfrid]

You guys are way too intellectual...

If only that was our downfall. Have a good dinner.