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Fermenting sausage

mamster

By mamster
in Cooking

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mamster

mamster

Posted
Posted

I'm not easily alarmed, but I do know that the word "botulism" comes from the Latin for "sausage." So I'm looking at a sausage recipe (for an upcoming column, so I don't want to give away the whole story, but it contains rice) that calls for the stuffed links to be hung at room temperature for five days to give them a nice fermented tang. No curing salts are called for. How risky is this? Would curing salts make it safer? If so, would the curing salts change the flavor a lot? I'm looking for a lot of lactic acid production and not a lot of botulinum toxin production.

Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"

Author, Hungry Monkey, coming in May

Jinmyo

Jinmyo

Posted
Posted

:blink::blink:

Anyone?

:blink::blink:

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Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

Adam Balic

Adam Balic

Posted
Posted
I'm not easily alarmed, but I do know that the word "botulism" comes from the Latin for "sausage."  So I'm looking at a sausage recipe (for an upcoming column, so I don't want to give away the whole story, but it contains rice) that calls for the stuffed links to be hung at room temperature for five days to give them a nice fermented tang.  No curing salts are called for.  How risky is this?  Would curing salts make it safer?  If so, would the curing salts change the flavor a lot?  I'm looking for a lot of lactic acid production and not a lot of botulinum toxin production.

I thought you were the microbe guy here? :biggrin: Clostridium botulism type bugs are mostly found in soil etc, so if you can be certain of you meat quality, I guess it would be OK. But it only takes a tiny amount of the toxin to kill you. Are you sure that the lack of curing salts isn't a mistake? Do they spike the meat with lactic acid bacteria?

The Art and Mystery of Food

mamster

mamster

Posted
  • Topic Starter
Posted

Actually, let me just blow the whole story here.

The sausage I'm making is Isaan sausage (sai krok), which is a pork and sticky rice sausage with lots of garlic, enjoyed all over Thailand. When I've had it in Thailand, it's had a wonderfully sour flavor which I attributed to lime juice, but I think I'm wrong, because I've tried making this at home with lime juice, and it's good but not the same.

So there's a recipe in David Thompson's Thai Food (page 519, Fermented Pork Sausages) that calls for no curing salts or culture base, just rice, casing, coriander root, salt, garlic, pork, palm sugar, and fish sauce. He then has you hang the sausage in a "warm, airy place" for 4-7 days, then cook them.

I want to recreate this taste of Thailand in my home, but I'd also prefer to be alive when I'm done.

Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"

Author, Hungry Monkey, coming in May

Suzanne F

Suzanne F

Posted
Posted

You mean, it's kind of a Slim Jim Thompson? :blink: Or high Thai? :wacko:

I'd imagine that as long as you keep everything scrupulously clean, and have good air circulation -- and maybe drape them in cheesecloth to keep them clean -- there should be no problem.

Mrs. Meadow

Mrs. Meadow

Posted
Posted

WHOA! I had no idea.

In January, I attended a Mien (Laotian) New Year's party at the home of my daughter's ahma and spent the evening in the kitchen watching an entire pig become food for 100. Pork tartare? Delicious.

And the special rack over the stove (warm, moist place) had sausages "curing". Damn, they were good...

col klink

col klink

Posted
Posted
OK, I'm putting my life on the line...for you.

Good thing we recently promoted Jim Dixon as the other Pacific NW Coordinator. :laugh:

Jim Dixon

Jim Dixon

Posted
Posted

klink

quiet you fool...you'll blow the whole plan

Jim

ps to mamster...be sure to add those "special" ingredients I sent you, the litle bag of white powder...don't let Laurie near it, though

olive oil + salt

Real Good Food

g.johnson

g.johnson

Posted
Posted

From this site.

Botulism is caused by the organism Clostridium botulinum, a spore-forming bacteria.  Spores release a toxin that caused the illness. Although widely spread throughout our environment, botulism spores only become dangerous after producing a toxin in an oxygen-free environment of low acidity.

Your sausage is aerobic so you should be OK.

Always happy to help a biologist with these difficult questions.

col klink

col klink

Posted
Posted
ps to mamster...be sure to add those "special" ingredients I sent you, the litle bag of white powder...don't let Laurie near it, though

Horse?

elyse

elyse

Posted
Posted

How much garlic? Isn't garlic a natural anti bacterial or something? Yes, it's a stab in the dark.

mamster

mamster

Posted
  • Topic Starter
Posted

I know Clostridium is anaerobic, but wouldn't it be possible to get anoxic pockets inside a fermenting sausage if aerobic bacteria suck out the O2? I guess, ideally, the acidity is going to kill anything botulicious in there.

klink, you up for some more sausage antics this week?

Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"

Author, Hungry Monkey, coming in May

Anna N

Anna N

Posted
Posted

Aside from the question of botulism, what about the rice? I thought cooked rice had to be refrigerated and eaten very quickly - am I off-base?

Anna Nielsen aka "Anna N"

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Bux

Bux

Posted
Posted

Shouldn't the salt, garlic, sugar and fish sauce all act as a preservative? And you do get to cook them afterwards and before you eat them? Fresh food is overrated? :raz:

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

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col klink

col klink

Posted
Posted
klink, you up for some more sausage antics this week?

This week is a little busy. Wednesday I'm making pie (yeah! one with a lard crust and one with butter thougth both with crisco for pie Wednesday, oh yeah, probably some fruit too), Thursday afternoon I'm seeing How the West Was Won (the original Cinerama version in one of the original Cinerama theaters (Cinerama), Friday I'm smoking the first batch of corned beef brisket, Saturday the second and on Sunday I'm thinking of resting. If it's good enough for God, it *just* may be good enough for me. Damn, it's tough being unemployed. :cool:

How about next week? Any day, I'm totally up for it.

g.johnson

g.johnson

Posted
Posted
I know Clostridium is anaerobic, but wouldn't it be possible to get anoxic pockets inside a fermenting sausage if aerobic bacteria suck out the O2?

I rather doubt it. Oxygen is soluble in water and moves easily through cell membranes. If that weren't the case then fermentation would stop in the center of the sausage as the aerobic bacteria ran out of fuel and that doesn't seem likely.

mamster

mamster

Posted
  • Topic Starter
Posted

Okay, then why is botulism named after sausage? Is it because Clostridium is a bacillus and therefore sausage-shaped?

Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"

Author, Hungry Monkey, coming in May

mamster

mamster

Posted
  • Topic Starter
Posted

This idea is sounding better and better! Klink, next week is fine.

Hey, I found this:

Wilawan Charernjiratrakul, Assoc. Prof., Department of Microbiology, Faculty of Science Angkana Sukboon, Student

Published : Songklanakarin J Sci Technol, 1998, 20(4) : 429-436

Key words : traditional fermented Thai sausage, lactic acid bacteria, Salmonella

A total of 83 isolates of Lactobacillus and Pediococcus, members of lactic acid bacteria, were isolated from traditional fermented Thai sausage (sai-krok-prieo). When tested by agar spot method, 81 isolates showed inhibitory activity against Salmonella typhimurium 3292 and S. enteritidis 3294. Of the 81 isolates, 24 which exhibited the inhibition zones >10 mm against 6 strains of Salmonella (S. anatum, S.enteritidis 3289 and 3294 S. typhi 3299, S. typhimurum 3292 and 3230) were chosen for further studies. Under the anaerobic condition and the use of 0.2% glucose MRS agar which eleminated the effect of hydrogen peroxide and organic acids, 3 isolates of Lactobacillus and 1 isolate of Pediococcus showed a little antibacterial activity against S. typhimurium. After the culture super-natants of these four isolates were neutralized and treated with catalase, no antibacterial activity against S. typhimurium was detected by well diffusion assay.

So it sounds like I may or may not also get salmonella.

This is also interesting.

Matthew Amster-Burton, aka "mamster"

Author, Hungry Monkey, coming in May

Suzanne F

Suzanne F

Posted
Posted

C'mon -- you know that maggots are not spontaneously generated in dead meat, right? So how you gonna get those other nasties if they're not already present in the ingredients? Work clean, and what's the problem?

But my offer still stands to help keep you from ODing on any organism that DOES get its nastiness into the sausage. :wink:

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