Off the Menu at 15 Restaurants

Steve Plotnicki · February 18, 2003

Other reasons a diner might prefer to be a fly on the wall: (1) one might not want to get all dressed up and look one's best for a restaurant one were known at, (2) one might consider it more appropriate, when a chef has taken such efforts, to order better wine, and one might also feel one has to be more generous than usual with resect to tipping, (3) significantly, one would not want to have to decrease the number of diners markedly or cancel on a restaurant one were known at, even if one were already very full from prior restaurants visited, and (4) one would be more circumspect about alcohol, for fear of getting intoxicated and undermining one's record of good behavior (hence, no more "to the edge" attempts at alcohol).

Cabrales - Let me ask you, do you think your average everyday diner is beset with these concerns?

La Nina - No sometimes you really don't want it. Sometimes you walk into a place and you hate it. And they are fawning over you and you have to make believe you love it. I'm not very good at not telling the truth in those situations and I find them pretty uncomfortable. Especially if it onvolves nice people who are trying their hardest.

La Niña · February 18, 2003

Other reasons a diner might prefer to be a fly on the wall: (1) one might not want to get all dressed up and look one's best for a restaurant one were known at, (2) one might consider it more appropriate, when a chef has taken such efforts, to order better wine, and one might also feel one has to be more generous than usual with resect to tipping, (3) significantly, one would not want to have to decrease the number of diners markedly or cancel on a restaurant one were known at, even if one were already very full from prior restaurants visited, and (4) one would be more circumspect about alcohol, for fear of getting intoxicated and undermining one's record of good behavior (hence, no more "to the edge" attempts at alcohol).
Cabrales - Let me ask you, do you think your average everyday diner is beset with these concerns?
La Nina - No sometimes you really don't want it. Sometimes you walk into a place and you hate it. And they are fawning over you and you have to make believe you love it. I'm not very good at not telling the truth in those situations and I find them pretty uncomfortable. Especially if it onvolves nice people who are trying their hardest.

I'm very good at it. Especially if it involves un-nice people who are trying their hardest. :blink: I'll give you some pointers. :raz:

Edited February 18, 2003 by La Niña (log)

stellabella · February 18, 2003

Nobody actually thinks they are an important person.

I believe that Plotnicki has earned his second round of applause this month. :smile:

Everybody, all together now:

I am a member of egullet. I am special. My parents are special. My teachers are special. They care about me. I will do my best every day in every way to succeed. I am somebody. I am important.

And now let's stand for the pledge to the flag.

Basildog · February 18, 2003

Just to fan the flames abit....

I genuinely do not like to be treated differently in a restaurant than anybody else.I have in local restaurants recieved extra courses, and actual dishes cooked just for my table. I felt uncomfortable, i just wanted to eat dinner and be off duty!

I appreciate that there intentions were good, but personally i want to experience a place like anyone else would.

Gavin Jones · February 18, 2003

Sorry to interject my somewhat banal intercourse.

The situation I most often find myself in which is relevant is in Chinese restaurants where menus in a language I am way off grappling with describe the delights available to the vips (sinophones/logues?/philes??).

And the same when I go to a shack in Italy with no name where the front of house guy/gal recites what they do & my language skills are inadequate (and my local knowledge less so).

This is so not to do with high-end dining and completely about establishing the relationship.

Of course there are the bistros du coin in French cities where there are 4 old blokes in berets (apologies Wilfrid) smoking Gitanes Mais and dining on the off-menu cassoulet/bourride at the table in the back which you know you could get if you spent the next 20 years becoming a regular but there are some pleasures that aren't worth it.

On reflection most aren't.

maggiethecat · February 19, 2003

I genuinely do not like to be treated differently in a restaurant than anybody else.I

BD: You, Suzanne and I must make a point of dining out together.

Looks as if we won't find anyone else to go with us. :biggrin:

cabrales · February 19, 2003

Other reasons a diner might prefer to be a fly on the wall: (1) one might not want to get all dressed up and look one's best for a restaurant one were known at, (2) one might consider it more appropriate, when a chef has taken such efforts, to order better wine, and one might also feel one has to be more generous than usual with resect to tipping, (3) significantly, one would not want to have to decrease the number of diners markedly or cancel on a restaurant one were known at, even if one were already very full from prior restaurants visited, and (4) one would be more circumspect about alcohol, for fear of getting intoxicated and undermining one's record of good behavior (hence, no more "to the edge" attempts at alcohol).
Cabrales - Let me ask you, do you think your average everyday diner is beset with these concerns?

Steve -- Well, one is talking about better establishments that diners would be interested in developing VIP treatment at. I'm not sure my concerns are those of the average diner, but, that being said, there are disadvantages to VIP treatment at a place I don't care about that would lead me to prefer non-VIP treatment.

Point (3) is an important one with respect to maintaining VIP status. It, together with punctuality, signals concern about the restaurant.

Edited February 19, 2003 by cabrales (log)

ranitidine · February 19, 2003

And now let's stand for the pledge to the flag.

With or without "under God"?

lizziee · February 19, 2003

I have someone visiting me and as he was watching me read this thread, he immediately sat down to wade through all 10 pages. His comments from a front of the house perspective are below.

Having worked at 2 four star New York restaurants and one 3 star Michelin restaurant, I am dismayed by some of the comments.

I am a front of the house person who works 12-14 hours a day, and for us the most gratifying moments of our lives is when our clients leave happy.

Some people just won't ever be pleased. others will leave happy no matter what. But there is no difference whether you have a lot of money or no money at all.

We only care that you "respect" everyone in that restaurant (i.e.) The Hostess

The Busboys

The Runners

The Waiters

The Captains

The Maitre d'hôtel

The Director

When I say respect it is moving your elbow when we are trying to put down your food, listening when we are describing a dish. If we ask you to wait for your table in the lounge, even though you see there is a table ready, we are only doing it for the betterment of your experience. Asking for an owner that is never there will just insight the staff. Saying THANK YOU. Generally, a VIP, a term I never use, are those who make our jobs more enjoyable.

We, as a collective group, love to "give" more than expected service or what you would call extras. The kitchen loves to "just" cook and we love to find a hidden jewel in the cellar. At one restaurant where I worked, we went so far as to go to a store and get Iranian caviar which by the way they kept hidden. We did this not for a regular, but a first timer who happened to shine shoes and was bringing his daughter for her 21st birthday. Did he slip the whole staff $100 bills? Not quite!

But, this is when we, as a very tired group, go home and can't wait to wake up to do it all again. We love moments like this when we can alter an experience. This family will be a "special client" of mine forever, although he never returned to the restaurant. Obviously, we get regulars that may just want to have a "panache salad," that is not on the menu. We, of course. do it. We also have regulars who we know are true "eaters" and we will gladly "just cook."

But, when you disrespect one or any of the staff, the kitchen will find out through us. We again will probably do anything we possibly can to make your dining experience more than expected. We spend many a night tossing and turning about what could have been better. It bothers us more than you when something goes wrong. We are perfectionist at what we do, but we are also realists, it would help if "you" were too.

Thank You,

your friendly service person

ranitidine · February 19, 2003

Please explain to me how making me wait in the lounge when there is a table ready is for the betterment of my experience.

ajay · February 19, 2003

Certainley I can see how enjoying an aperetif in the lounge of certain michelin 3 starred places would be enjoyable. I would certainley prefer to peruse the menu have a drink and hopefully enjoy an amuse (or two) in the bar/lounge area at troisgros, and based on reports and pictures would not dream of beginning my experience at Boyer without champaign in the lounge.

I don't think the NYC four stars (and certainley not the three stars) have comparable facilities, with the possible exception of the bar/lounge area outside lespinasse, and thus, I would not enjoy beginning my evening there.

Bux · February 19, 2003

Lizziee, I enjoyed that post for several reasons.

tommy · February 19, 2003

lizziee's friend's comments come down to, in my eyes, as expected, respect. no shocker there.

Pan · February 19, 2003

Lots of things in a free market system seem "unfair." VIP treatment is just one more thing on the list. But fortunately, as we have pointed out to anyone who would like to partake in the custom, there is a non-monetary way to acquire this level of service for yourself.

It doesn't seem completely non-monetary to me. Steve KLC mentioned that there is normally a premium to be paid for those special dishes. And if all the restaurant is doing is holding ingredients in reserve for more expensive dishes than are featured on the menu, I don't see how any customer could object to that on any grounds.

There's also something many of you are overlooking: For people who are perfectly happy with the printed menu (or, in a case like Congee Village, the printed menu or menus they're given ordinarily), there may not be a reason to ask for something else - again, keeping in mind the price point. I do thank Fat Guy for mentioning the banquet menu at Congee Village, though. Unlike his article about how to cultivate a high-end restaurant, that's information I can use. Though the price point is still higher, it sounds like (c. $17 a dish he said, IIRC), and the dishes do sound most suitable for a large group. Now, if there were only a way for a regular to have a table reserved there on those busy nights... :smile:

But seriously, my status as a somewhat-recognized regular there has probably caused me to be better treated as an often single diner there than many others, partly because they know I bring friends when I can and always tip decently.

One comment about specials being leftovers: That was the case tonight at Teresa's (in the East Village, for all you non-New Yorkers) in one instance, the Chicken Stew. I knew it was left over from the lunch special, but I asked for it anyway, because I like it. In fact, they had run out by the time I tried to order it at 9:30 P.M. or so. Kudos to them for being open last night in the aftermath of the snowstorm, by the way.

macrosan · February 19, 2003

I genuinely do not like to be treated differently in a restaurant than anybody else.I
BD: You, Suzanne and I must make a point of dining out together.
Looks as if we won't find anyone else to go with us.

Oh I'm in :shock:

Basildog · February 19, 2003

I genuinely do not like to be treated differently in a restaurant than anybody else.I
BD: You, Suzanne and I must make a point of dining out together.
Looks as if we won't find anyone else to go with us.
Oh I'm in

Name the place! :biggrin:

Steve Plotnicki · February 19, 2003

It doesn't seem completely non-monetary to me. Steve KLC mentioned that there is normally a premium to be paid for those special dishes. And if all the restaurant is doing is holding ingredients in reserve for more expensive dishes than are featured on the menu, I don't see how any customer could object to that on any grounds.

What I said was that it doesn't cost anything to acquire the service. I didn't say the items didn't have an extra cost. Most of the times they do but sometimes they don't. Recently I had a restaurant prepare a chef's tasting menu for me. Two of us had three courses and each course had 5-6 small plates of food in it. The cost was $50 a person. Had we ordered ala carte, it would probably have been 50%-100% more per person. So whether it's a matter of more money or not depends on what it is. But in general, exceptions typically cost more. That seems logical to me.

Fat Guy · February 19, 2003

But in general, exceptions typically cost more. That seems logical to me.

I agree with the latter, but not the former. It does seem logical that a restaurant would charge more for more. But this is not generally the case. I would say that in more than half (a lot more than half) of the cases where a restaurant has done something special for a customer in my presence (and this was the case long before any restaurant ever recognized me as a critic; something that still happens quite rarely), there has been zero extra charge associated with it. The option for a certain degree of customized treatment seems built in to the pricing structure at most good restaurants. You won't get white truffles for free, nor will you be comped a whole lobe of foie gras or a tin of Iranian caviar, but you can often get a lot without any supplemental charge. It is, however, a bit of a game. You have to be a gambler, because unless you set a price in advance the restaurant does retain the option to charge you any reasonable sum. However, if you set the price in advance, the price will almost always be set higher than what the restaurant would have charged you on its own after the fact. If a server goes to the expediter or a manager and says, "Table X wants this and wants to know how much it will cost," the answer is going to be, "$50 supplement," or whatever. If the server says, "Table X wants this," and the boss says okay, and then the kitchen and staff have a good time with the customer, at the end of the night the server will say, "How are we charging for this," and the boss will say, "Four prix fixe." If you order wine above the restaurant's average price point, you'll be even more likely to get comped on any food extras. It doesn't always work out that way, but if you dine out often you'll find it to be a trend. Then every once in awhile some wise-ass hits you with a $300-per-person bill and you deal with it. Again, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just telling you all how it is.

IrishCream · February 19, 2003

This represents one of the items that has confused me about this thread. Several posters have said that one can receive "VIP" treatment for "no money". Do they mean no extra money beyond what an average customer would spend? Am I to believe that by being respectful and interested I am going to receive free fois gras? Or any other off or on the menu items for free? Or does one pay for them, in which case, what is meant by "no money" ? I really am curious.

edit: crossed posts with Fatguy...did he answer me?

Edited February 19, 2003 by IrishCream (log)

Steve Plotnicki · February 19, 2003

No I agree with you. When I said exceptions, I wasn't really referring to a different preparation. Like can you steam my salmon instead of pan roasting it? I was using it more in the way of their making you an "exceptional" dish that might have special ingredients that they are holding back. And I don't mean luxury ingredients like truffles either. Once when I was at Blue Hill, they served us baby beef. Now before I screw up the definition of baby beef, it was too old to be veal but not old enough to be real beef. Assuming that it wasn't on the regular menu, that was something they made as a special dish for a regular customer that had a pricing structure of its own. And in my experience, those dishes "typically" have some sort of upcharge to them. But they don't have to.

Fat Guy · February 19, 2003

When I say respect it is moving your elbow when we are trying to put down your food, listening when we are describing a dish. If we ask you to wait for your table in the lounge, even though you see there is a table ready, we are only doing it for the betterment of your experience. Asking for an owner that is never there will just insight the staff. Saying THANK YOU. Generally, a VIP, a term I never use, are those who make our jobs more enjoyable.

Friendly service person, please do register a user account on eGullet and post here from time to time. We have quite a few chefs posting here, and of course a large pool of customers, but we have only a handful of front-of-the-house staff on our site. The ones we have are great assets, and I'm sure you would be too. You clearly have a lot to teach; and who knows, maybe something to learn too.

One thing I hasten to point out is that you are somewhat atypical. The United States is not a nation of professional waiters in possession of the esprit de corps you describe. Even at the high end, a progressive enlightened front person is the exception. Even at my absolute most favorite restaurants, there are far too many front people who -- like most people in the world -- suck at their jobs, don't love what they do, don't embrace the notion of customer service you're describing (at least not on a consistent basis), and will always gravitate towards doing the bare minimum except perhaps when motivated by a big prize monetary or otherwise. I think, despite the likely annoyingness of the WSJ reporters, the captain they dealt with at Gramercy Tavern likely falls into this category. Sometimes a little direction from management and support from the kitchen can preempt or cure that sort of malaise, sometimes not. But I have in my mind a pretty clear picture of a deadbeat captain and an uncooperative sous-chef teaming up to create the scenario that caused Gramercy's humiliation in the WSJ.

Regarding asking people to wait in the lounge even though a table is ready, I assume you are referring to this as a means of flow control: you don't want to seat a party until there's a captain available to devote significant immediate attention to the table and until the kitchen is close to being ready to process an order. You don't want to seat a party and then ignore the party, so drinks in the lounge are the prescription. I've got to tell you, most Americans are tone-deaf to that decisionmaking process. They would actually rather be seated at the table and brought a cocktail there. Most Americans, I believe, would rather have slow service than wait for a table in the lounge. If your policy is predicated on the thinking I've described here, you might reconsider its wisdom. I've spoken to a lot of consumers about this exact point and you'll find very little support for the enforced-wait approach. I hasten to add that I think the approach makes complete sense. But customers want what they want.

Finally, although the term VIP is both a misnomer and not universally used (for example you don't use it), I think you'll agree that it is the standard industry term for a customer who is going to get special treatment. Typically, "We VIPed him," is language I'd expect to hear from restaurant employees -- even French ones who might not know what the acronym actually stands for.

Steve Plotnicki · February 19, 2003

Irish Cream - What we mean by no money is as follows. Say you go to a restaurant and the tasting menu has four courses on it, three savourys and desserts. But let's say there are more then three good looking dishes on the menu. So you ask your server would it be possible to prepare a 7 course tasting menu based on the printed tasting menu plus three you have chosen? In most instances, a restaurant would be glad to accomodate you. And it's quite possible, even though not likely, that the cost will be exactly the same because they have reduced the portion size of each course. But what I think you most typically find in this instance is that the cost is higher, but on a quality to price ratio analysis it turns out to be a bargain. And the four course menu might have been $90, and the seven course is $110.

But here is the part that some people seem to be missing. When you identify yourself to a restaurant in this manner, they take you seriously as an eater. And it's very likely that on top of your seven course, the kitchen sends out 2-3 more course, some little bites, some full tasting size porrions, and you end up with 10-11 courses for the $110 which in reality nets it down to costing less then the $90. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to me. And Liziee and other will all have loads of stories just like this one.

So this is what we are describing. It's a *value added* that isn't printed on any menu. But which kicks in at some point if you are able to communicate to the restaurant that you are the type of diner *that appreciates* thay type of service. The cost of communicating it is free. The cost of living it is a negotiation, just like anything else. But again, typically you will find that going that route not only gets you the best food, but the best value.

IrishCream · February 19, 2003

In terms of baby beef....it is often available in supermarkets in Texas at a price well below regular beef and far below veal. Baby beef is horrible...no longer tender like veal...but not enough marbling to be tender like full grown beef. I would be insulted if a restaurant offered me baby beef. I am learning a lot from this thread.

jparrott · February 19, 2003

I find using a bar stool makes it easier to dine at a high level.

There's a lot more truth there...a good relationship with a bartender at a high-end place will bring much joy, both food and drink-wise. Especially if you share your (brought) wine copiously.

IrishCream · February 19, 2003

Thanks Steve! :wub: I think maybe I am finally getting it....but skip the baby beef!

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