Yeast, matzo, and ancient Egypt

[Duvel]

Administrator's note:  this topic was split from the "Why some people eat matzo year-round" topic here.

 

On 4/3/2024 at 11:21 PM, KennethT said:

X

22 hours ago, KennethT said:

it's just flour, water and salt, baked within 14 minutes (that's from memory, don't quote me)

18-22 min, according to this article …

 

They must have had some pretty potent wild yeasts in ancient egypt 🤗
 

[weinoo]

7 hours ago, haresfur said:

I wasn't brought up Jewish, we just ate a lot of Jewish food.

 

Strangely, that wouldn't have been my first choice, had I had a choice.

8 hours ago, Duvel said:

They must have had some pretty potent wild yeasts in ancient egypt 🤗

 

No - it is unleavened bread!

[Duvel]

16 minutes ago, weinoo said:

No - it is unleavened bread!

 

I know - that was my point 😉

 

Given that it needs to be prepared within a ~20 min time window to guarantee no fermentation takes place, I can only assume that those 20 min refer to the time it would have taken in ancient Egypt (at the time of the exodus) to start fermenting. Hence, pretty active yeasts 😋

 

[weinoo]

45 minutes ago, Duvel said:

 

I know - that was my point 😉

 

Given that it needs to be prepared within a ~20 min time window to guarantee no fermentation takes place, I can only assume that those 20 min refer to the time it would have taken in ancient Egypt (at the time of the exodus) to start fermenting. Hence, pretty active yeasts 😋

 

 

Oh - I see. I hadn't had my matzo yet!

[gfweb]

11 hours ago, Duvel said:

18-22 min, according to this article …

 

They must have had some pretty potent wild yeasts in ancient egypt 🤗
 

 

 

No yeast!

[Duvel]

35 minutes ago, gfweb said:

 

No yeast!

As I was searching in the mancave for my Oxfords Dictionary of Ancient Cultures & Languages to prove you wrong, I noticed that I must have lend this to someone else with more need of important facts. But fear not, I used Google and it seems there were yeasts present in ancient Egypt - behold:

 

Quote

They believe they have succeeded in identifying, isolating, and even baking bread with strains of yeast that may have been used by Middle Kingdom Egyptians to make bread—and brew beer—more than 4,000 years ago.

And, given my 20 min account here, they must have been the fast acting type 🤭

 

Probably something like this, but Ramses II brand  …

 

[gfweb]

16 minutes ago, Duvel said:

As I was searching in the mancave for my Oxfords Dictionary of Ancient Cultures & Languages to prove you wrong, I noticed that I must have lend this to someone else with more need of important facts. But fear not, I used Google and it seems there were yeasts present in ancient Egypt - behold:

 

And, given my 20 min account here, they must have been the fast acting type 🤭

 

Probably something like this, but Ramses II brand  …

 

 

 

Of course yeasts were present in Egypt and everywhere else. 

 

But Matzoh is baked quickly after the dough is mixed (for that reason) and shows no sign of leavening in the product.  If there is yeast in matzoh it's a contaminant and killed by baking anyway.

 

[Duvel]

8 minutes ago, gfweb said:

 

 

Of course yeasts were present in Egypt and everywhere else. 

 

But Matzoh is baked quickly after the dough is mixed (for that reason) and shows no sign of leavening in the product.  If there is yeast in matzoh it's a contaminant and killed by baking anyway.

 

Sure, that part is uncontested. My point was that if there was a need to prepare matzo within said very short timeframe, the ambient yeasts in ancient Egypt must have been the pretty powerful ones. If I mix flour with water it’ll take a loooot longer than 20 min before anything ferments …

 

 

[KennethT]

What I don't understand (and this is a bit OT) but why didn't they have more time for the dough to rise before baking?  They had time enough to mix the dough - they could have done that while the caravan was getting ready to leave in the morning and then left the dough in baskets to ferment while they were moving.  Then, when settled for the day, once the fire was built, they could bake the now leavened dough and save us in the future from eating cardboard once a year.

[weinoo]

1 hour ago, Duvel said:

If I mix flour with water it’ll take a loooot longer than 20 min before anything ferments …

 

Not according to the Talmud!

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, KennethT said:

What I don't understand (and this is a bit OT) but why didn't they have more time for the dough to rise before baking?  They had time enough to mix the dough - they could have done that while the caravan was getting ready to leave in the morning and then left the dough in baskets to ferment while they were moving.  Then, when settled for the day, once the fire was built, they could bake the now leavened dough and save us in the future from eating cardboard once a year.

Being unleavened is a requirement so it was specified to bake it quick so as to remain unleavened

[KennethT]

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

Being unleavened is a requirement so it was specified to bake it quick so as to remain unleavened

I think it is specified in the Talmud to bake it soon after mixing so that it resembles what was made while leaving Egypt back then since, according my my Maxwell House Hagaddah, they didn't have time for it to rise.  Prior to the leaving of Egypt, they had always eaten leavened bread of some kind - I'd assume some kind of leavened flat bread kind of like naan.  So now, at Passover, we eat unleavened bread to symbolize what the Israelites had to eat while leaving Egypt since they didn't have time for it to rise.  I'm just questioning the logic there - they had plenty of time for dough to sit around - they were walking in a caravan every day and most probably made camp at night to sleep.  So I see no reason why they couldn't have either mixed the dough at night for it to leaven while they were sleeping, or mix it in the morning before packing up and have it rise during the travel time.  In the heat of the day, I'd assume it would get quite a bit of lift in 12-14 hours or so of walking.

[Duvel]

10 hours ago, KennethT said:

So I see no reason why they couldn't have either mixed the dough at night for it to leaven while they were sleeping, or mix it in the morning before packing up and have it rise during the travel time.  In the heat of the day, I'd assume it would get quite a bit of lift in 12-14 hours or so of walking.

Maybe we see this topic from a wrong angle: not that they were forced to prepare the unleavened bread hastily (as the legend says) , but maybe the did so by design, i.e. to create an (barely) edible derivative of flour they could transport and live of for longer time than from bread. I mean crackers will keep significantly longer than bread, due to the low water activity. Plus bread with its sponge-lke texture will likely trap moisture in a desert environment due to the drastic day/night temperature change more easily and thus limit its shelf life.

[gfweb]

5 hours ago, Duvel said:

Maybe we see this topic from a wrong angle: not that they were forced to prepare the unleavened bread hastily (as the legend says) , but maybe the did so by design, i.e. to create an (barely) edible derivative of flour they could transport and live of for longer time than from bread. I mean crackers will keep significantly longer than bread, due to the low water activity. Plus bread with its sponge-lke texture will likely trap moisture in a desert environment due to the drastic day/night temperature change more easily and thus limit its shelf life.

 

Opens up another discussion...were the dietary laws (and other restrictions on Jews) done for practical reasons or religious ones designed to set the people apart from others?

[Duvel]

1 hour ago, gfweb said:

 

Opens up another discussion...were the dietary laws (and other restrictions on Jews) done for practical reasons or religious ones designed to set the people apart from others?

 

Not necessarily set apart, but maybe help them to thrive in a certain environment, e.g. the matzo as a long lasting & spoil resistant bread alternative ? 

 

A colleague in university came from Haifa and whenever I had a Mettbrötchen (raw minced pork on a rye roll) for breakfast, he said that that would be a death sentence at home. I always assumed for religious reasons, given that pork is a no go for both Jews and Muslims alike, but one day he explained that pigs carry so many diseases/parasites in warmer climates plus the ambient temperatures in conjunction with the raw mince would make my favorite snack probably as healthy as slurping raw sewage. So, to forbid certain foods can have significant benefits for a population.

 

I never got him to try it, not even on a Matzo cracker ...

 

 

Edited April 5, 2024 by Duvel (log)

[rotuts]

@Duvel

 

another point along similar lines :

 

pigs do not sweat .

 

https://extension.psu.edu/keeping-pigs-cool-in-the-summer-heat

 

thus it become difficult to raise them in hot environments 

 

there has to be  water source.

 

thus providing one for pigs makes them expensive.

Edited April 5, 2024 by rotuts (log)

[gfweb]

3 hours ago, Duvel said:

 

Not necessarily set apart, but maybe help them to thrive in a certain environment, e.g. the matzo as a long lasting & spoil resistant bread alternative ? 

 

A colleague in university came from Haifa and whenever I had a Mettbrötchen (raw minced pork on a rye roll) for breakfast, he said that that would be a death sentence at home. I always assumed for religious reasons, given that pork is a no go for both Jews and Muslims alike, but one day he explained that pigs carry so many diseases/parasites in warmer climates plus the ambient temperatures in conjunction with the raw mince would make my favorite snack probably as healthy as slurping raw sewage. So, to forbid certain foods can have significant benefits for a population.

 

I never got him to try it, not even on a Matzo cracker ...

 

 

 The Biblical statement of the laws had no practical rationale given.  People look back and say that circumcision is good for you..strictly after the fact reasoning.

 

What's wrong with shrimp and crabs?  They spoil just like scaled fish do.

[Duvel]

2 hours ago, gfweb said:

People look back and say that circumcision is good for you..strictly after the fact reasoning.

Exactly …

 

And once a significant number of

people have succumbed after eating pork intestines or oysters in a surprisingly warm environment, codifying a law against eating them will protect their ancestors at least from that danger. I think there is a point to be had.
 

Bleeding out animals to make the meat spoil slower is a smart practice as well. Eating fish on Fridays maybe less so, but then religion isn’t a strict science …

[Margaret Pilgrim]

2 hours ago, gfweb said:

 

 

What's wrong with shrimp and crabs?  They spoil just like scaled fish do.

Because they are/can be scavengers?

[rotuts]

Religious and Cultural ( a bit different ) food taboo's or traditions 

 

rarely stand up to experimental scrutiny .

 

sticking to fish :  Scales :  OK  No Scales : not OK 

 

 

 

enter the Shark Steak .   

 

fish w no scales :

 

https://www.quora.com/Which-fish-do-not-have-scales

 

swordfish has scales,but :

 

 

and if the issue is kosher , there seem to be different ' levels ' of kosher

 

ie 

 

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/ask-the-expert-kosher-symbols/

 

 

 

 

[weinoo]

1 minute ago, rotuts said:

and if the issue is kosher , there seem to be different ' levels ' of kosher

If you only knew how many different levels of kosher I know!

[rotuts]

@weinoo

 

more than rotuts.

[gfweb]

1 hour ago, Margaret Pilgrim said:

Because they are/can be scavengers?

 

Perhaps.

 

But my point was that shellfish are no more or less likely to spoil than scaled fish and therefore the laws re shellfish are not in reality a public health regulation.